A recent poll in Vancouver suggests that many residents blame South Asians in general and Indo-Canadians specifically for the violence and crime in their city:
According to the Vancouver Sun, Nearly two-thirds of respondents to an Ipsos Reid poll believe some ethnic groups are more responsible for crime than others, and they put Indo-Canadian and Asians at the top of their lists.Of those in the poll who held ethnic groups most responsible, 56 per cent specifically identified “Indian/East Indian” and 45 per cent listed “Asian/Oriental,” the newspaper reported March 16.
By comparison, five per cent of the same group singled out “Caucasian/white” and only one per cent were worried about “Afro-American/Black,” “Middle Eastern/Arabs/Muslims” and “Italians.”
An Ipsos Reid spokesman said people were allowed to give more than one racial group in their answers, and all the responses were gathered into groups that best reflected the responses. [Link]
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p>The reality, as you will see below, is different from perceptions, but in issues such as crime it rarely matters. Indo-Canadians may cite this poll as evidence that they are the victims of a racist Canadian society. Playing the victim will of course help to delay the need to change their community from within and will leave many parents in their state of denial. On the other side you may see an increase in hate crimes against Indo-Canadians.
…in an interview, Vancouver Police Insp. Kash Heed, commanding officer of the department’s district 3 — southeast Vancouver — said actual statistics show the reverse of the poll findings.
“In the Lower Mainland, the majority of crimes are committed by Caucasians,” he said.
“That’s a true figure, it’s a reliable and valid figure based simply on arrest statistics.”
He said public perceptions are swayed by media coverage of criminal events, including the Air India bombing, which involve members of South Asian and Sikh communities. [Link]
Regardless of the accurate statistics, nobody can deny that many Indo-Canadian youths are out of control. Stories like the following seem to have become all too common in Canadian media and are disturbing even given the media bias:
Everyone was having a good time until the fight began and someone started shooting. When a 29-year-old Surrey man exchanged insults with four young Indo-Canadian men at Garry T’s pub at 72 Avenue and Scott Road, the confrontation escalated and one of the Indo-Canadians produced a handgun and started shooting, inflicting multiple wounds – one of them fatal. The Dec. 8, 2005 incident is just one of many in Surrey and other Lower Mainland communities where a gunfight has erupted in a public place, with bullets being sprayed indiscriminately with no concern for innocent bystanders.According to police, the number of shooting incidents nearly doubled last year, fuelled by a “bad boy” mentality that sees young men with no criminal past packing handguns to bolster a tough-guy image.
As a result, disputes that would have ended in a fistfight or an exchange of insults are turning into potentially fatal encounters… Everyone was having a good time until the fight began and someone started shooting. [Link]
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p>The Canadian government has now formed a federal task force to address the problem of Indo-Canadian violence. The task force has advocated sending in a team that is to act much like a United Nations peacekeeping force:
The proposed emergency conflict resolution team, to consist of family members, former gang associates and social and religious leaders, would be dispatched to “hot” spots between “warring parties” to try to resolve conflicts in a non-violent manner, the task force suggests.
“We understand this type of initiative has been implemented in other cities with success.”
The bold recommendation was one of many in a wide-ranging, comprehensive report that says misguided family and cultural values are a chief cause of the disputes that have killed more than 100 Indo-Canadian males, almost all in their 20s, during the past 15 years.
The report, by 10 Indo-Canadian professionals, many of them social workers, was commissioned by then federal Liberal cabinet minister Raymond Chan and completed Nov. 30. [Link]
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p>Earlier today a SM commenter asked why is there such a difference between American and Canadian South Asian youth. The short answer I believe (readers can feel free to offer their own theories) lies in first seeing that Canada seems to be a hybrid between the degree of assimilation we see in England (very little) vs. the U.S. (very much). For South Asians living in the U.S., some of our brothers and sisters north of the border serve as canaries in the coal mine. In the U.S. it has been my experience while growing up that if you, for example, tell an Indian friend that you are headed to an all-Indian party on a Friday night, you are frowned upon a bit. This becomes even truer past the age of about 25. We have grown up lightly pressured by our own friends, of the same ethnic/cultural background as ourselves, to assimilate to a degree and not get caught up in brown on brown drama. The presence of wannabe thugs at your party is guaranteed to be a turn-off to all the South Asian friends I have ever hung out with at least.
“Many South Asian parents believe that ‘old ways’ of parenting are effective and acceptable,” the report said.
“In the Canadian context, these ways can contribute to children disconnecting from their home and family environment.”
Such a program, while not blaming parents, would help break “the myths and taboos they may hold about parenting in Western culture.”
A final recommendation is for a media watchdog to monitor the role of the media in stereotyping Indo-Canadians. [Link]
Indo-Canadians in Vancouver don’t like what’s going on either
But there’s also a mythology around the whole scene….its just really easy to boil this down to its sexy angles…..young toughs, a martial culture gone bad….and then you have all the hoo-haa around Jattness.
Its a bad situation, not made better by people on all sides who too often go for the easy answer. Ironically people on both sides of the issue say….”My culture made me/them do it”
be careful about generalizing this as an Indo-Canadian phenomenon. It seems localized to Vancouver. If you did a poll in Toronto asking what ethnic group was associated with crime, I suspect Indo-Canadians would rank somewhere between Lithuanians and Martians.
I dare you to say Indo-Vancouverian 3 times really fast.
Try ‘Kacha Paapar, Pukka Paapar’ really fast.
Being Canadian myself, not residing in Vancouver, I’d have to say the degree of assimilation outside of Vancouver is pretty high. My experience with other browns is pretty much as you described about your own experience, Abhi. I have visited Vancouver, though, and it does seem that they have specifically Indian neighbourhoods – you don’t even have to speak English to get around in certain parts! I could be wrong, but I haven’t noticed this in Toronto. The geography of the two cities are very different, perhaps affecting the likelihood of “segregation”.
Metric ang, What are your thoughts on Edmonton? I had the impression that it was sort of part way between the lack of assimilation in Vancouver and higher degree of assimilation in Toronto.
Try this
And if the link asks for registration on second run through – just purge cookies and history and cache and try again.
Ang – to quote Ikram from another thread – it isnt about assimilation, it’s about integration. I’ll let him jump in on this to extrapolate, but I just love his explanation.
In my neighborhood in Parkdale you can get around with speaking polish alone – including the bank, the grocer, the barber, the church.
In my previous neighborhood in Markham you could say the same of Chinese.
Hey, you wouldnt happen to know anything about a revolving restaurant in your hometown, now would you,?
I was raised in Vancouver, and but also lived in Toronto as an adult. Both have their Indian/desi/punjabi neighbourhoods. For Vancouver, it’s south Vancouver and Surrey, mostly. In Toronto, it’s Brampton and Mississauga.
This poll only reinforces the belief I had since I was a kid in Vancouver. The media in Vancouver – especially the two main newspapers – were always quick to emphasize the negative stories about Indo-Canadians, Punjabis, or Sikhs. More often than not, such stories end up on the front page. Come Baisakhi or another story that might put the brown in a bright light, and the story was buried on page B15.
There’s a definite difference between the Punjabis in Vancouver and those in Toronto. The Punjabis in Vancouver are more based on the rural/labourer class from India, whereas those in Toronto came more from the business class. Granted, Vancouver’s Sikh community does have its problems, there’s no denying that, and it’s been a problem for a long time.
The other thing to note is that while one can use the term assimilation with respect to Indians in Toronto, I may more accurately label it as integration.
Aaaargh, wish I could put my two cents in here, but I have to run. Great discussion, keep it going!
I’m a Bengali raised in Calgary – when my parents arrived there were perhaps 40-50 Bengali families in Calgary. While the numbers dictated the need for integration, the larger community (even in Calgary) was never hostile (though it was often ignorant). It was the 1970s and most of the Indian immigrants were educated, articulate and felt a certain security. The Vancouver Punjabi community, on the other hand, has experienced a long history of virulent racism, rejection, hardship and privation. They were the first Indian immigrants to arrive, as very second-class British subjects, in a very British Canada. We know other peoples still suffer the psychological consequences of disenfranchisement – I wonder if this isn’t a partial explanation of the Vancouver desi situation…
Maybe – but gangsterism amongst young men cannot be excused by that, any more than slavery can be blamed for gangsterism amongst blacks in America.
Abhi wrote The short answer I believe (readers can feel free to offer their own theories) lies in first seeing that Canada seems to be a hybrid between the degree of assimilation we see in England (very little) vs. the U.S. (very much).
Bullshit. US desis would be lucky, creaming their pants, if they could have the prominence that we have in Canada. Politicians like Ujjal Dosanjh, Ruby Dhalla, Navdeep Bains, Harinder Takher or even Moe Sihota (to restrict myself to Punjabis). Media personalities like Ian Hanomansigh or Raj Ahluwalia. Writers like Rohinton Mistry, MG Vassanji, or Neil Bissoondath. CEOs like Firoz Rasul, Nadir Mohamed or Herb Doman. Athletes like — well, I only got Emanuel Sandhu — I’m not a sports fan. Desis of all religions and origins are well integrated at high levels of Canadian society. Well educated, rich, upwardly mobile and important.
What we don’t have is the same level of assimilation, which is not because US desis are more willing to give up their culture and traditions. It’s becuase we are more numerous. A greater presence means its easier to stay within community and “stick to your own”.
(However, I can point you to a paper that shows that, outside Vancouver, neighbourhood segregation os not increasing becuase of “white flight” so much as becuase of greater numbers.)
All that said, there are issues in Vancouver and in Abbotsford. Dharma Queen points out that the history of west coast desis is different. Komagata Maru and all that — that shapes a community. I’ve never lived on the west coast, and I’m not Punjabi, so I’ll defer to other on that one.
I have to take issue with what Abhi says about the level of assimilation of desis in the UK. Obviously recent events with the individuals of Pakistani descent with the London bombings are a serious problem. But despite this the level of integration and achievment in British society across the whole of the community of various religious backgrounds is strong. I don’t need to make a list of names or situations, but I don’t think it helps to get into a pissing match about which country, UK, Canada or USA has the ‘best’ desis. Obviously things vary within communities, and to tar whole experiences and peoples with one brush is just self defeating. If things are bad amongst gangster youth in Vancouver, it doesnt help to point the finger and say that the whole of Canada is some kind of half-way house between England and America (I mean seriously Abhi, have you ever lived in the UK?)
Ikram says:
Really? What is the Indian population on Canada? I know in the U.S. it will be coming up on 3 million by the end of the decade. Also I have always had the impression, perhaps false, that desi politicians in Canada primarily go after desi votes. Is this not true? I am contrasting this with a say, Bobby Jindal.
Ikram
The history of racism Vancouver Punjabis might have faced may have something to do with it, but only a little. There has to be community initiatives to start dealing with the gang culture and drug dealing there – that means helping them, rather than hating on them.
In the U.S. it has been my experience while growing up that if you, for example, tell an Indian friend that you are headed to an all-Indian party on a Friday night, you are frowned upon a bit. This becomes even truer past the age of about 25. We have grown up lightly pressured by our own friends, of the same ethnic/cultural background as ourselves, to assimilate to a degree and not get caught up in brown on brown drama. The presence of wannabe thugs at your party is guaranteed to be a turn-off to all the South Asian friends I have ever hung out with at least.
Naturally, when one associates predominantly brown events with drama or wannabe thugs, it could be viewed as negative. Notice that no one feels that “light pressure” when attending a high-quality cultural event like 7-11 or even, for that more, a low quality cultural event like the cr*p the IAAC throws together. Or when desi yuppies get together for martinis (or whatever desi yuppies do), no one feels like they are not “assimilating”, just because the crowd is all brown.
This isn’t about assimilations. Its about class. The desi upper and upper middle classes in this country want very little to do with their “thuggish”, “unassimilated” brethren, even when they themselves choose not to assimilate.
I’m not sure why you see it like that. In the U.S. we’d kill to see brown faces on popular T.V. shows, sports, etc. That’s the norm in England. This isn’t a pissing contest between which is better. The point I was addressing is why the difference. That is what the commenter in the other thread asked. England without a doubt has ethnic desi ghettos that have led to problems. Canada has some (mostly in the Vancouver area). The U.S. doesn’t have any yet, although a case could be made for parts of New Jersey I would think. That gradation I was pointing is what you see as a “half-way house?”
I have spent quite a bit of time there. A good portion of my family lives in Harrow.
Actually in my experience the desi “upper and middle classes” are the ones that are often the most “thuggish.”
Abhi
I think you probably know why there is a difference – the history and migratory demographics for the UK and USA are different, and then in each situation a number of variables come together to create a situation like you see in Vancouver and other places. I think you probably understand that. And I don’t mean about seeing brown faces on TV, movies, everywhere in the UK – you characterise the UK as having ‘very little’ assimilation – when logic will tell you that in order to have the economic, cultural and social profile that Indians have in the UK, it would have to be characterised as having more than the ‘very little’ assimilation that you assert as the median level representing us.
Your model is too broad brushed. And I’m sorry, but it does reek of a pissing match a little.
I disagree strongly with the statement in the post that Indians in Canada are less assimilated than those in the US. The insularity and conservatism of a number of the American-born desi commenters on this post startles me from time to time. I’ve been to one all-Indian party in my life, took three white friends there, and was frankly thrilled because it was all-Indian. Hell – I’ve never been able to find enough Indian friends around to NOT be assimilated, and I’ve lived in TO, Montreal, Moncton, Calgary, Ottawa.
This thread is going to spin out of control into a Canadian Desi versus USA Desi versus British Desi finger pointing session. That would be sad. Let’s just accept that there are problems in different places with different communities and treat it as one diaspora, OK? Representing the totality of desi experience for entire nations in broad brush strokes is not subtle enough, not withstanding identifiable factors in the nuances of desi life in all three countries. I would rather discuss what is being done to help concerened people in Canada and Vancouver to break the cycle of gang violence in their city rather than make the issue into one of a kind of referendum and judgment call on the whole Canadian desi community in all its achievment and complexity. That is why Ikram and Dharma Queen have objected to the representation whilst allowing for the fact that there is a problem.
One thing that disturbs me about the way Canadian authorities handle problems in the BC desi community is their indifference when only ‘insiders’ are involved. Hence the RCMP has yet to prosecute the family members of Jassi Singh for her honour killing, despite substantial evidence (as shown on an episode of the Fifth Estate) against them. Jassi was killed, together with her ‘unsuitable’ husband, in India – and listening to the RCMP talk about the case, one would think it was an entirely Indian affair. But Jassi was Canadian.
Alright – this is what my Canadian cuz told what he thinks about this whole situation – that a culture of gansgterism and easy money has taken root amongst SOME Punjabis in BC. He says that the parents generation are in complete denial and are not doing enough to address the issues, and that they are too stuck in their authoritarian attitudes to deal with the crisis. The easy money and get fast quick returns of drug dealing is corrupting a whole generation, and it is basically a mafia situation, comparable to that of other ethnic minority experience with crime in immigrant and post-immigrant communities throughout history. Mafia leaders corrupt youth by involving them in the process.
If this assimilation thing worked so well then why are so many of us born and brought up US desis posting on a website specifically for desi issues? Shouldn’t we be posting on GOUSA.com or something?
I remember one lightning trip I made to London around ’99 or so. I was only there for two days (it was the tail-end of a Europe trip) and I was hanging out with the Southall-based relatives of a friend. I didn’t go to central London on that trip, hung out in Southall and its environs. For virtually the entire two days, I saw only Indians (specifically Punjabis). Some Somalis as well. When I looked down from the 2nd floor, there was a keshdhari Sikh in every backyard I could see. I even went to a wedding reception in a neighboring town, and again, on the streets and in the frontyards of that town, all I saw was Indians. The broadways (main streets) of both towns had only Indian shops. The only white people I saw were at the airport. I don’t think people in the States have a clue how high a concentration of desis lives in that area of west London. Little kids there speak Punjabi, and don’t really switch over to English until they start going to school. UK bhangra music was everywhere. I can’t think of any other immigrant group that has taken its traditional music, adapted it to its new environment, and created such a thriving home-grown, locally-produced music scene, which even 2nd and 3rd gen people love so much (and later export it back to the country of origin!) But I digress. Is this degree of ghettoization a good thing? I though it was beautiful. Would I want to live there? Probably not. (Unless I had one of those vanilla-skinned, green-eyed beauties Jai mentioned (and I can vouch they exist) as a girlfriend).
Amitabh, it does sound beautiful. I wouldn’t want to live there either, though, especially after reading this interview with Naveen Andrews, in which he said living in the UK as a desi was ‘bloody awful’. He said he lives in LA now and feels ‘possibility’ there, whereas he felt trapped in a small-minded class system in the UK. Presumably somewhere near the bottom.
Naveen Andrew’s was a junkie and an alcoholic who couldnt get work in the UK – that’s why he talks about a class system that keeps people down – when in reality Britain has a high degree of social mobility – that is why there are so many stories of South Asians rising up for nothing to appear in lists like this.
Southall is changing a lot. Indians are moving out as they become more prosperous and Somalians, Eastern Europeans are moving in.
no it isnt. popular reference outside the canadian classroom is literature from Suzuki, Kogawa on the Japanese situation and to a lesser extent by Wayson Choy on the Chinese experience. The komagata maru experience is no worse than that faced by other immigrants.
I m going to put a positive twist to it in that there is freedom of expression is the freedom to be an asshole and that there is greater freedom of that here than most any other place I know. I have heard kingsingh’s explanation before from indic community – that it’s just the yahoo-class from the pind that’s settled the west. But to the community’s credit – it’s fighting back on its own. Does anyone remember the fight on putting chairs in the gurdwaras from the late 90’s – and the bloodshed – the sikh community’s been fighting the regressive elements for a while. remember the attacks on hayer. dosanjh got brained with a rod as well for speaking out. Like i said, the community’s well integrated but there’s no pressure to assimilate – thank you very much for the general concern but I like it that way.
oai pajama fan, where the heck are you? you started this – now you’re off doing your homework when it’s just getting warm.
Don’t see why you consider the facts of lawyer Dosanjh getting brained and publisher Hayer getting attacked (wasn’t he finally assassinated?)as signs of progress in the BC community. The community reaction to the honour killings of Jassi Singh and Amandeep Atwal was pretty chilling as well, no one spoke up for the girls but lots of people spoke up for the families.
america the best!!! canadians are faux-americans, i mean, is “hey,” the best you can do for an accent.
That’s ‘eh’, Razib, not ‘hey’.
Nous sommes mal compris par nos voisins du Sud.
my point was that there were leaders in the community who spoke up against the violence and were willing to stand up to the bullies says MUCH … SO MUCH about the community. The fact that the problem has been identified is a positive sign. on the other hand… for those who are not from here, the drug situation is extremely bad among the indic community in places like brampton – and we’re talking coke not the designer stuff or pot. there’s trouble brewing here.
even the honour killings you talk about … yes… i know the response seemed underwhelming – but to tell you the truth i havent kept my ear to the ground on that – dont know if there was any grassroots reaction. anyone else in the know?
Razib – quit trolling.
That’s ‘eh’, Razib, not ‘hey’.
whatever. are you frozen yet?
well razib, you can’t wash your hands off like that. canada is the 52nd state after all, just after UK :).
on a lighter note, i think desis—at least the guys—can use a little bit of “bad boy” image. why should just the sissy-lion italians have that swagger? oh and if you had an accent like mine, that would sound “sicilian”. dont come complaining if you don’t.
Razib,
Mais oui, mon igloo is very cold, mon parka is made in la Chine, and mes voisins du sud sont des sots qui volent mon huile, mes arbres, mon boeuf, mes idees, mes ecrivains, mes chanteurs, mes acteurs, mes docteurs, mes…assez. Hey.
Well, no, Razib, “eh” is the best we can do. And don’t forget ‘oot’ and ‘aboot’. Tant pis 😉
More seriously though, Dhaavak, I have to agree with Dharma Queen. I don’t see how those examples you cite are examples of progressive thinking. I am glad that folks spoke up, and I understand why you think that’s positive, and it is, but I think the fact that these fights are even present in the community is frustrating and regressive.
And back to Abhi’s post: the situation of Indo-Canadians in Vancouver is pretty unique. The confluence of circumstances there — a really old community, ghettoized, and yes, perhaps even martial culture, gives rise to a real dynamism of cultural influence, but attendant problems too. An old post by Brownfrown nicely details some of these circumstances.
Nevertheless, there are South Asians in the rest of Canada and the perspective on those populations really depends on where you are. In my admittedly limited experience, I have seen enormous differences in the way culture and the rate of acculturation interact in South Asian populations in Canada, the US and the UK. I do think there is something to the multiculturalism model in Canada that allows immigrant communities to flourish, and also in some ways really separate out from from the mainstream. And there is no doubt that it is a numbers game. Tamils in the US are spread out all across the States. Tamils in the UK are in Tooting, but also spread out aways. The majority of the diaspora of Sri Lankan Tamils are in Canada, and in Scarborough in particular. That concentration means you can shop in Tamil, buy Tamil food, pray in Tamil (whether Christian or Hindu), and hang out only with other Tamils, particularly if you own a business that caters to your population. That allows people to develop and explore their entrepreneurial ambitions and succeed, even when language might otherwise be a barrier. And then you also see, like Punjabis in Vancouver, the underbelly of the community as well. So it’s possible that it is as simple as: with a larger population will come larger problems.
What’s it like in Plainsboro, New Jersey?
I’m sorry but I don’t see a pissing match here. The difference between American desis and Canadian desis is almost inconsequential compared to the difference between these two and British desis. I went to college with Canadian desis and they were indistinguishable from the rest of us. Still, in some aspects I think there are differences particularly with Vancouver desis (thus the title of the post) that bear examination. As you guessed I am well aware of some of the historical factors in play but I’d much rather hear it straight from the mouths of Canadians. I don’t think looking at those differences constitutes a pissing match. I’ve already learned something about my neighbors to the north reading these comments.
Damned Chinese triads and yakuza ruining Vancouver for the rest of us …
you make it sound like if you lift a rock in Vancouver you’re see all manner of insects coming out from underneath!
Connecting the lack of assimilation in Canada with the crime problem in Vancouver is a general and a problematic statement. Are we saying that Indians by nature are more violent and prone to crime and if unassimilated in the local Canadian population will revert back to their old habits.
No, no, no, that’s not what I meant at all! Just that as there are success stories, there are problems in every community, particularly those with larger populations (like in Vancouver and Toronto). Both.
What??? Ummm. No.
ahh yes… thanks for pulling out brownfrown’s old post nux2 – ye olde dipshit discussion – i dont agree with it largely because there are other communities that have faced far worse racism for much longer and not crumbled.
my point has not come through. i am not much for linear thinking but will try.
it is a good thing that immigrants can succeed without losing their identity or the social problems from the old country. in some cases the problems have got magnified. as a system the society has to find ways to correct the problem. a resolution can be the paternalistic approach from the government which enforces change – but that is unnatural to the canadian way of life – the superior alternative is that the community finds a way to correct itself, the path that the punjabi community chose in the west.
i hope my point is coming through. there are gut churning stories every other dayfarah khan, cecilia zhang, Jeffrey – in each case, we try to ask questions why did this happen? There must be a reason, because noone can commit crime in as wanton fashion as it appears. it isnt human, or is it?
my rationalization is that a society is a complex mechanism with multiple interactions among all participants – and we can not even begin to explain it all through line of sight rationalization. Shit will happen because shit is part of the system. so – to take your poiint ” these fights are even present in the community is frustrating and regressive” – well, I wouldnt question your frustration, but will question your question on the presence.
Observer, You have an interesting point. Why does the post segue from a discussion on Indo-Canadian gangsters to whether Indo-Canadians are as assimilated as Indo-Americans? The implication, at least, is that the less assimilation there is, the more thuggishness there will be. I don’t know if this is untrue, as more assimilation generally means more opportunities, more optimism about one’s educational and economic future etc.
Dubious assumption. Mexican Americans do worse on standardized tests the more generations they’ve been in the US, i.e. the more integrated (presumably) they are. These Vancouver gangsters are rarely FOBs, they’re CBCDs, by definition more Canadian than their law abiding FOB brethren.
I am contrasting this with a say, Bobby Jindal. Abhi,
Are you using Bobby Jindal as an epitome of Indian-Americans assimilating in USA?
I have to agree with you that Indian-American politicians in USA are not targetting desi vote, just because it is dispersed and too white collar to be rallied, and also there are no ghettos (as you said).
Bobby Jindal is a special case. In South Louisiana (or entire Louisiana), his pull is his political philosophy, broadly speaking religious beliefs, and also, thinly veiled anti-minority stance (the ones who are economically disadvantaged). In a wedding, I once chatted with dozens of Louisiana folks, almost all of them I met have voted for him in past, and mark my words – none of them even knew his ethnicity or even cared about it. His message is solely targetted to a blue collar white person.
Nux, don’t worry i wasn’t being harsh. your points are well taken. however i wonder if we’re scapegoating a community for the problems within it e.g. i don’t think the wider Indo-Canadian community in Vancouver is not the problem
Abhi,
I lived in Edmonton for a while, and it is a bit of a hybrid between what I’ve experienced in Vancouver and Toronto, yet closer to Toronto on the continuum. There’s a specific area which is by and large populated by first generation South Asians. From what I last recall, it was a friendly community. However, even though it was safe and clean, with good mid-income housing, the real estate was hard to sell to anyone other than south asian and a few other minorities. As a result, those South Asians that financially prospered, moved out of these neighbourhoods into more mixed ethnicity neighbourhoods. South Asian gangs? Not really, from what I recall. There were a few teenage gangs like “Brown Nation”, but I remember talking with a friend about how one of their members just ended up going to med school like everyone else…. Not to make light of gang membership or violence or anything.
Whoever made the point about the media in B.C. – good point. I’ve noticed alot of outlandish “Sun” type stories coming from the area. I’m not saying that there isn’t a problem in the Vancouver community, but I do think that some of these publications are very adept at latching onto anything less than positive.
Now, concentrating on the issue, what are the causes of 2nd genners, regardless of their ethnic background, turning to gang membership? I don’t buy the “their parents have thug, regressive, farming community backgrounds” argument that I am detecting – there seems to be some intra-south asian racism or superiority complexes in such sentiments. Some mention racism, ghettoization….. is there anything else? Do you guys restrictive upbringings have anything to do it? Concepts of masculinity within certain cultures? The value of boys? Geography? Perhaps all of these brewed up together?
Dhavaak, you make a good point about the word integration vs. assimilation. I too feel that semantics are important. I always appreciate the info about the connotation behind certain terms whether it be “oreo” or in this case, assimilation. The word ‘assimilation’ may be perceived as being related to model minorities. I do feel while little communities can lend to great multi-cultural development, it’s sometimes sad that people outside the dominant culture of a neighbourhood basically fear moving to certain neighbourhoods. I don’t know if you’d call this subtle racism or what… but it can sometimes devalue the real estate of these neighbourhoods. Even when they’re clean, safe, with good schools – very interesting. This seems like such a transparent phenemonen that someone must have studied and written about it… those of you with liberal arts backgrounds, educate me!
(Dhavaak – yes, we have a revolving restaurant – lol – any reason for your inquiry?)
Nux,
I don’t think the problems in the Indo-Canadian community are due to old processes. The issue of Indo-Canadian crime in BC is a newer issue, I’d say it was only in the 90’s when these things started popping up. Indo-Canadians were not always ghettoized either.
I agree that there’s a cultural dynamism but I doubt it’s connected to any deeper or a longer lasting cultural memory. Its much newer than that and I don’t know how much its got to do with a broader past.
A lot of these are just really out of line teenage boys who need to be put into line. I think some of them are unaware of consequences. Their parents were for the most part people who did not get on the wrong side of the law and worked hard and the goal was always for their kids to be respectful of laws and get educations. It just all went wrong with part of the younger generation who’ve gone off the rails. They’ll learn when enough of them get to the point of being once bitten twice shy. Its kind of sad in a way, these are not kids who grew up in hopeless surroundings, and I do not feel discrimination is the root cause of their feelings. There’s something else going on here where these kids are have become unmoored to the consequences of their actions. Even that being said, there’s quite a lot of Indo-Van kids who are great kids. I think they are getting lost in the mix when we talk about these problems.
For every Van City Pun Gansta there’s probably three nice kids who want to do the right thing