A recent poll in Vancouver suggests that many residents blame South Asians in general and Indo-Canadians specifically for the violence and crime in their city:
According to the Vancouver Sun, Nearly two-thirds of respondents to an Ipsos Reid poll believe some ethnic groups are more responsible for crime than others, and they put Indo-Canadian and Asians at the top of their lists.Of those in the poll who held ethnic groups most responsible, 56 per cent specifically identified “Indian/East Indian” and 45 per cent listed “Asian/Oriental,” the newspaper reported March 16.
By comparison, five per cent of the same group singled out “Caucasian/white” and only one per cent were worried about “Afro-American/Black,” “Middle Eastern/Arabs/Muslims” and “Italians.”
An Ipsos Reid spokesman said people were allowed to give more than one racial group in their answers, and all the responses were gathered into groups that best reflected the responses. [Link]
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p>The reality, as you will see below, is different from perceptions, but in issues such as crime it rarely matters. Indo-Canadians may cite this poll as evidence that they are the victims of a racist Canadian society. Playing the victim will of course help to delay the need to change their community from within and will leave many parents in their state of denial. On the other side you may see an increase in hate crimes against Indo-Canadians.
…in an interview, Vancouver Police Insp. Kash Heed, commanding officer of the department’s district 3 — southeast Vancouver — said actual statistics show the reverse of the poll findings.
“In the Lower Mainland, the majority of crimes are committed by Caucasians,” he said.
“That’s a true figure, it’s a reliable and valid figure based simply on arrest statistics.”
He said public perceptions are swayed by media coverage of criminal events, including the Air India bombing, which involve members of South Asian and Sikh communities. [Link]
Regardless of the accurate statistics, nobody can deny that many Indo-Canadian youths are out of control. Stories like the following seem to have become all too common in Canadian media and are disturbing even given the media bias:
Everyone was having a good time until the fight began and someone started shooting. When a 29-year-old Surrey man exchanged insults with four young Indo-Canadian men at Garry T’s pub at 72 Avenue and Scott Road, the confrontation escalated and one of the Indo-Canadians produced a handgun and started shooting, inflicting multiple wounds – one of them fatal. The Dec. 8, 2005 incident is just one of many in Surrey and other Lower Mainland communities where a gunfight has erupted in a public place, with bullets being sprayed indiscriminately with no concern for innocent bystanders.According to police, the number of shooting incidents nearly doubled last year, fuelled by a “bad boy” mentality that sees young men with no criminal past packing handguns to bolster a tough-guy image.
As a result, disputes that would have ended in a fistfight or an exchange of insults are turning into potentially fatal encounters… Everyone was having a good time until the fight began and someone started shooting. [Link]
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p>The Canadian government has now formed a federal task force to address the problem of Indo-Canadian violence. The task force has advocated sending in a team that is to act much like a United Nations peacekeeping force:
The proposed emergency conflict resolution team, to consist of family members, former gang associates and social and religious leaders, would be dispatched to “hot” spots between “warring parties” to try to resolve conflicts in a non-violent manner, the task force suggests.
“We understand this type of initiative has been implemented in other cities with success.”
The bold recommendation was one of many in a wide-ranging, comprehensive report that says misguided family and cultural values are a chief cause of the disputes that have killed more than 100 Indo-Canadian males, almost all in their 20s, during the past 15 years.
The report, by 10 Indo-Canadian professionals, many of them social workers, was commissioned by then federal Liberal cabinet minister Raymond Chan and completed Nov. 30. [Link]
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p>Earlier today a SM commenter asked why is there such a difference between American and Canadian South Asian youth. The short answer I believe (readers can feel free to offer their own theories) lies in first seeing that Canada seems to be a hybrid between the degree of assimilation we see in England (very little) vs. the U.S. (very much). For South Asians living in the U.S., some of our brothers and sisters north of the border serve as canaries in the coal mine. In the U.S. it has been my experience while growing up that if you, for example, tell an Indian friend that you are headed to an all-Indian party on a Friday night, you are frowned upon a bit. This becomes even truer past the age of about 25. We have grown up lightly pressured by our own friends, of the same ethnic/cultural background as ourselves, to assimilate to a degree and not get caught up in brown on brown drama. The presence of wannabe thugs at your party is guaranteed to be a turn-off to all the South Asian friends I have ever hung out with at least.
“Many South Asian parents believe that ‘old ways’ of parenting are effective and acceptable,” the report said.
“In the Canadian context, these ways can contribute to children disconnecting from their home and family environment.”
Such a program, while not blaming parents, would help break “the myths and taboos they may hold about parenting in Western culture.”
A final recommendation is for a media watchdog to monitor the role of the media in stereotyping Indo-Canadians. [Link]
pjf,
i am sorry i came down harshly on you…..really sorry…you might not hate your ancestry but the way i see it,your point almost always is to just distance yourself from your community and as i mentioned,indulge in ‘i-didnt-do-it-ism’.
not that i prbably havent done in the past but at the end of the day,its so pointless.
we either make a change or stay covered…..(stay covered being a shamless literal translation of the punjabi phrase ‘dhakeya rah’)
Calgary here – missed the train yesterday and didn’t want to jump onto the discussion midway! Re: TO meetup, count me in – even if I have to Terry Fox it all the way over there!
To Epoch (post #88):
Thanks for the links. So far I only read the part about the Sikhs, but I plan on reading all of them. So far, whatever I read was very detailed, comprehensive, informative, and just plain enjoyable. Thanks again.
Okee, not to jump on any bandwagons here, but I think this guy has half a point:
[Link]
While I think that a recognition of cultural difference is necessary to retain any sense of personal integrity, I think that part of the problem vancouverites are facing is situated in the context of a larger problem borne out of multicultural policy: if it happens in “your” culture its “your” problem (i.e. domestic abuse) if “your” problems affect “us”, then, hooboy, watch out. There is a dual system of ethics – cultural relativism that extends until there is an overlap – saying “do whatever you want to in the domestic sphere, we’ll be culturally sensitive and stay out of it, because its not our problem” makes it easy to point fingers later. And yes, BC’ers might be potheads (facilitaing the gansta economy) but we really need to address how the more insular desi communities raise their boys. Speaking only for the punjabi kids I grew up with in Edmonton – there’s a consistent divide in how men and women are raised (if parenting well is raising your kids to both have a sense of self worth and be functioning citizens, then this makes for inadvertenly bad parenting).
I’ve been to toronto, ottawa,ontario(too many places to list) but not vancouver. But I did sense that some thing like this was brewing up there. Its such a shame.
bissoondath is entitled to his perspective. respect that. but most folks who’ve posted on this would disagree with you – especially i – i love this town like you wouldnt believe … has anyone seen that old raj kapoor movie in which the guy comes out of a mansion and goes dancing with the natives, i dont remember the name … well – most days it’s like that for me… i LOVE THIS TOWN like that… oops, made a mess.
Bissoondath seriously needs to get out more often…and try taking the TTC once in a while. If my Acadian friend can have a babushka for a neighbour, Macedonian breakfast on the weekends, and Rupa’s Hairstylings for haircuts all in the span of one city block right in the middle of little portugal then Bissoo can at the very least spare us the “only festivals and Zorbas and cozy compartments” shtick.
lissen to the lady … you gotto live here to get it … but it’s just not TO … there was a time i found myself on the north shore of the st Lawrence with a dog named merlin – violet overcast skies, water so deep and so purple you could dip your finger in it and write on the snow – walking over the ice floes as they stacked up like a deck of cards, one slab for every tide that went out – and i knew then this is it – i disagree with bissondath because it’s not whether anyone tells me whether i belong or not or what group i’m supposed to belong to – it’s knowing that this is home and nowhere else.
to each their own.
sorry to threadjack but i had to explain the reference… i have occasional biz trips to the US and when i get back like last week … i’m smiling just because… and everything and everyone looks similar to from four hours back but so clean – the canada customs guy with huge arms says welcome back mr m_, … the red coated porter smiles and say hello… and i get out and there’s this old security guy and i say, “kee haal nay “, and he says, “vadia, tussi sunao ” – and i get out and get into a cab – the somalian dude tells me about his kids and him spending the weekend cleaning and prepping the garden – and he drops me off and says, “take care brother” – and I say, “you too man”. and so it goes. life’s good here. touch wood.
o! bissoondath, admit it, you just had a bad day.
Ugh! I simply cannot stand Bissoondath, I knew it was him without clicking on the link. He uses the colour of his skin (with the National Post crowd) to speak with authority about “the cultishness of multiculturalism” (of which he’s made a job) but he speaks to a Canada of the 1970s, when no one was sure what multiculturalism would mean in this country.
Exactly right Neha and Dhaavak – TO is a gorgeous polyglot with people living multiculturalism — incorporating aspects of many cultures into their daily lives. And Canada is as well, though depending on where, not necessarily to the same extent as TO.
Now, to speak to #107, I think your commentary is very helpful (though I diss Bissoondath ;)). It can be a double-edged sword when people don’t see a problem as a Canadian one, and rather as a problem of your community. The poster that noted that the original article referred to one Surrey man and 3 Indo-Cdns, provided a very clear example of how that works in the media and in the eyes of the people that consume that media.
S-o-n-u-v-a-b-i-t-c-h
The last line in bissoondath’s article referenced in #104… He gets it… he really gets it.
Ok.. guys – I am so sorry to keep coming back to this – last post for the night – … and bugging all you southerners… but this is very close to my heart, and i cant but help wig out. plus i had a mid-afternoon run by the lakeshore and y’know how tatis.
WHy only blame the Indo candains what about the white gangs there are as much white guys in da drug and gang world in canada and in vancouver as the indo candians and azn so lets point a finger at somebody else
I live in Houston, Texas and thought i’d comment on the U.S.-Canadian Punjabi-Indian differences. I agree with some of the posters that stated its largely an economic difference. I disagree with the poster who stated that Indians in the U.S. would “cream their pants” if they had the recognition that Indo-Canadians have.
I was born and raised in the U.S. My massi and cousins live in Calgary and Toronto Canada. Houston, for those that have not been here, has a very successful and vibrant Indian community. I live in Sugar Land, a suburb of Houston, and there are several Indians here that we are personally friends with that have 4-6 Million dollar homes. In Houston city proper, we know several Indians worth 10, 20, and 50+ million dollars.
This being said, when I went to Calgary for my first time 3 years ago, I was pretty shocked to see that 80-90% of the cab drivers were Indian. I am not used to seeing ‘blue collar’ Indians. We stayed in Calgary at my aunts house for a few days, and I was surprised at her living conditions. Not that they were poor, they were just very ‘middle class’ Most Indians in Houston have 3,000+ square foot homes, drive decent cars (most families will have at least one luxury car like MB, bmw, or lexus).
We flew to Vancouver, and i checked out vancouver. I had heard a lot about the punjabi community in Vancouver (actually Surrey they told me), so I went there. We took a taxi, again, no surprise a Punjabi guy. I went to the Surrey Gurudwara to pay my respects and enjoy the Langar for lunch. I didn’t spend more than 1 day in Surrey, but my general impression after seeing Candian-Indians (punjabis at least) and their U.S. counterparts: Here in the U.S. we are generally much wealthier. I have only seen blue collar indians in two cities: NYC, and Los Angeles. I haven’t seen them in Chicago or Houston (i’m not counting pakis or bangladeshis).
The first Asian congressman Dilip Sanud was elected in the 1950’s in America. Here in Houston we have a Pakistani City councilman, and in Sugar Land we have some Indian politicians as well. So would we cream our pants? Definitely not. I’d rather be a part of the vibrant, successful, and wealthy U.S. punjabi crowd (at least texas) than Canadian. In fact, I’ve seen several “little Indias” so far: Southall/West London = Ghetto. Surrey=fairly ghetto, Jackson Heights/NYC = Ghetto. I’m perfectly fine with our Sugar Land little India phenomenon. We get all the Indian stores, and our people are respected and are probably the richest ethnic group in the area. Talk to people who live in Southall London, the first thing they want to do is get the hell out of there.
Houston,
Okay, you got to brag about your 3000 foot homes, turn up your nose at middle-class Indo-Canadians, and generally pound your chest and proclaim your superiority. You got to distinguish yourself from the Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, who are obviously of no concern to an uppity sand nigga like you. What a joke. You sound like a typical solipsistic, self-important, bellybutton-staring Yankee.
You may be wealthier over there, but boy do you have other problems. What about the Indo-American convenience story guys who were being summarily rounded up in Georgia? What about the Sikhs in the US who get shot down because some American ignoramus thinks they’re Muslim? What about your crappy health care system? What about your crime rates? What about the proliferation of guns in your homes and streets? What about the fundamentalist Christian nutcases trying to peel back gay rights and the right to abortion? What about – bigots and warmongers who are actually taken seriously by your ‘heartland’ – God knows what that is, I’d call it heartless-land myself.
Gimme a break. I’d prefer my frowzy middle-class Canadian lifestyle any day. Better to serve in heaven than reign in hell.
Turning your nose at middle class people, regardless of where they live, or their ethnic background is sad. Taxi drivers work hard. Convenience store owners work hard. And alot of them do get the 3000 square feet homes. Maybe the person in Calgary (which is experiencing an economic boom by the way), that you visited, wasn’t uppity and superficial. Hard to imagine, right? That someone wouldn’t want a fancy home and lexus? I’m not even going to bother disagreeing with your uniformed perception of Indo-Canadians.
I am not used to seeing ‘blue collar’ Indians. Not that they were poor, they were just very ‘middle class’ Most Indians in Houston have 3,000+ square foot homes, drive decent cars (most families will have at least one luxury car like MB, bmw, or lexus).
awesome.
Just to let you all know how bad the situation is in the Vancouver Metropolitan area, well just recently it came in teh newspaper (few months back) that 1/3 of the murders in British Columbia (for all of you who dont konw thats the province Vancouver is located in ) involve young Indo-Canadian males. Indo-Canadians in general make up only about 7-8 % of the population in British Columbia and there’s about 300 000 South Asians (predominately Punjabi) in the Vancouver Metropolitan area. So that’s very unproportionaly and alamring in that the trend has increased. There are over 100 unsolved murderes involving Punjabi in the last decade, all related to gangs/drugs. There has been gang style executions meaning ppl are shot like 20+ times in Wedding Receptions, Bars, Clubs, Malls, Freeway during rushhour traffic, in broad daylight and at barbers to name a few incidents. Lotta the drug dealing is a family business adn they own legitimate stuff too (like the Italien Mafia). Drugs are distributed not only from the USA and from India also, unfortunaely the drug dealers have no respect for their religion and have been placing drugs in frame of pictures of Sikh Gurus. Besides all this there are still ppl here involved in the whole Punjab seperation movement, well very small now but they must be involved in illegal activity here too. Most of the crime is happeing in Surrey (suburb of Vancouver) and Abbotsford (differnt city that’s only 25 min from Vancouver). Its just gone crazy, Punjabi high school kids buy guns and use them in disputes. Everyoen drives escalades and hummers here. The south asian community is very wealthy here (just like pretty muche everywhere else). The main thing for ppl here to do is work out and dress nice, pretty much show off. The south asian community ehre is extremely well aware of their culture. The third most spoken language in British Columbia is Punjabi and the second biggest religion is Sikhism (over 60 gurdwaras in Britishc Columbia). The gangs got names here like ie. Independent Soliders. They ahve a special gang task force set up for Indo-Canadains. South Asians get respect here for their power (unfortunately not the rihgt kinda respect you want) but there are South Asians involved in everything from politics, news anchors, weather girls, doctors, lawyer, dentist, taxi cab drivers, businessmen/women, acting, singing etc. The south asisna are invovled in everythign but at the same time ppl konw a lot about their cutlure. I personally live in Greater Vancouver and I think the cause is taht BC maijuana is konwns to be the best in the world adn the punjabi young men (early 20s to late 30s) take the marijuana over the border (lotta south asina truckers) and sell it for cocaine and guns. As guns are relatively easy to get in the US they ahve infilitrated these punjabi neighbourhoods which are like 95% South Asian and the marijuana is traded pound for pound for cocain and then the cocaine is sold in Canada for mroe and there’s massive profits. So these guys/families and even women now, lotta South Asian women are heading gangs now are selling htis shit and becomeing loaded buying mansions, fancy cars, nice clothese, niight clubs, condos etc eveyrhign. It’s outta control and hopefully it’ll stop bc everyone is so hardcore nowadays you dont konw when someone bumps into you in a club and they’ll pull out a club. hoepfully this will give u insight int eh situation in Vancouver, well mostly in Surrey and Abbotsford, so Greater Vancouver and the Fraser Valley of Britisch Columbia. Keep it desi.
I meant someone bumps into you in a club and pulls out a club. the south asisna sare huge, physically, lotat clubs got brown bouncers. Bobby Singh huge linebacker played in the NFL and now palys in the CFL. Pasha bains a s basektball palyer for a unvieristy here, was hte leading scoreer in Canada for the CIAU(Canadian univeristy sports equivealnet ot NCAA). In the US, south asians are never seen or herad of. they’re not invoeld in anthying. Britishc Columbias former premier (equivalent ot Governor int he US) was Ujjal Dosanjh. A punjabi born in a pind in India! Ujjal Dosanjh was jsut recently the Heatlh Minister for Canada but the LIberal aprty lost jsut a few months back! So the South Asians are involved in so much more here adn we’re a lot more respected. They’re goign to make vaisakhi a BC holiday soon and eventually a Canadian holdiay. I konw this thorugh some family friends invoeld in politics. PUnajbi is taught in our univeristies and you can take it in high schoools. Vancouver’s mayor wore a turban for vaisakhi and South Asians in genreal are the most important ethnic group in BC and Canada! Even though there is alotta negative stuff, we are very sucessful and it’s just a matter of time before there is a South Asian Primce Minister here. Canada is alot more accepting hten the USA and teh UK. I’ve been ot Cali and there is so much racism against South Asian compared to here and I’ve heard simlar things about south asians in the UK. So why doesnt eveyoen move to Vancouver, which has continually been voted the best city to live in and realize what they’re missing. if your brown here everyone konws your religoins, what language you speak and culture. They wont think your mexican, or whatever else, they’ll konw straight up PUNJABI!!!!!
wow i was pleasantly surprised to read the comments on this site. Glad to see there is so many intelligent indians out there. the truth about indo canadian gang violence is that we must take responsiblity and stop blaming others. everytime i turn around i hear our people saying “oh what about whites and asians in gangs?” what about them. who cares. i care about the growth of our kind. we are suppose to be the peacemakers of this planet. we come from a land where gandhi preached of non-violence and demonstrated the power of non-violence. it is just shameful that our indo canadian youth are getting away with killing and dieing because we want to justify it somehow. parents should stop chasing money, spend more time with the kids. stop making big houses in surrey and not know where your children are. spank them if it need be. EDUCATION EDUCATION EDUCATION! cannot be emphasized enough. oh yes and taking responsiblity of our actions.
Atleast in canada, someone thinks 3 times before picking up a fight with an Indian. In New Zealand, its the other way around, most gangs here are Maori and Pacific islanders, followed by the Chinese. There are no Indo-New Zealand or Indo-Australian gangs. Indians have a good reputation in the australasian countries among the European majority down here. I faced much less racism or issues down in New Zealand. But onething i did notice, Indians are considered as pussycats and passive here mostly because most are either fijian indians or gujaratis. And I have also seen how easy it is for these polynesian and Maori gangs to attack or intimidate Indian shopkeepers or indians in general. The question is, would these maori and Polynesians dare to behave towards the Indians this way if this was Canada? I think not!
last time i went to montreal, i encountered a malayalam gang……. datz rite a MALAYALAM gang
from what i see, the reason why you see these south asians making huge packs, and being responsible for many stabbings and such is because they are minorities, and they see gangs as a way of protecting themselves
some of you from toronto might of heard of tuxedo court, a area in scarbrough with high concentration of tamil gang activity. in 1998 a larger number of african americans were murdered in response to the death of a tamil youth at a club
now you don’t hear that much or even at all about tamils being murdered by blacks in that area. in their eyes, their method of protecting their people work
THERE ARE PUNJABI ever where in da world but there is only one city the has the most ruthless and violent and dangrious sikhs and thats vancouver bc canada MY NAME IS jas sandhu ME FROM VICTROIA BC I AM only 17 years old i am so sick of waking up and hearing bad news about our people my beautufl GF Rumen told me to go to school and become something i am so great to be a sikh
THERE ARE PUNJABI ever where in da world but there is only one city the has the most ruthless and violent and dangrious sikhs and thats vancouver bc canada MY NAME IS jas sandhu ME FROM VICTROIA BC I AM only 17 years old i am so sick of waking up and hearing bad news about our people my beautufl GF Rumen told me to go to school and become something i am so great to be a sikh
I was making plans to move to canadia, but am now having second thoughts. Perhaps Enland is not so bad after all.
Dont’ move to eNGLAND, THE liviing standards are a lot lower than Canada. Canada comparitively has a lot less crime thent eh US and honelsty every South Asian in england wants to leave and go the US ro Canada. Serously England is too crowded, specificallly London. Nothing will happen to you here with South Asian predomniately PUnj gangs unless u get into the drug trade, pick fightrs wtih the wrong ppl or date there sisters,cousins and exs etc. lol, just maek sure the ppl around ur firends and gfs etc. are not involved with the gangbangers peace. Surr whatttt surrrrrrey. ahhah.
I am a Canadian caucasion woman who married an Indian born Sikh. We have lived in several different places including Surrey. It has been a big learning experience in racism from both sides. I was raised to never judge people by their race, religion, ethnicity, or economic class. I was also taught to respect others culture and to familiarize myself with other cultures so that I may broaden my understanding of all peoples. I am very well aware that there are many people that are not raised this way, but personally it always shocks me anyways. The folowing is some of our experiences over the years. My husband is treated graciously when he is in Indo-Canadian comununity, whereas I get curt and icy treatment. If we are in the “white” community shopping, I get good service when alone but often rude service when with him. He is treated in a suspicious manner in these situations. He has a more difficult time getting work than I and when he gets a job he often gets paid less and taken advantage of. The interesting thing is that he was most underpaid and explouted when he worked for other Indians. Socially, in the Indian community I find I am often set apart and a feel an air of judgement. Plus, I have been typecast being that I am a white North American woman that I will be disloyal, permiscuous, and immoral. I have always believed in the Canadian cultural system of accomodation where people from different culture can live their culture here in Canada. However, sadly enough, people are not sharing their cultures with each other to create a true multicultural nation. Instead groups are being segregated and divided. It is important for all people to leatn about and respect each others cultural differences. So next time you have a celebration, invite some people from outside your community.
Indo-Canadian violence is meant to be very high…its nothing but drugs(business) for these people…then they will go India/Panjab and build mansions. Everyone is knocking off everyone who is dealing etc, eventually leads to more and more violence…which the Panjabis have found themselves in. Its the same problem with the Panjabi-Americans as they are involved in violent behvaviour in the Californian area, Queens/NewYork etc.