For weeks now I’ve been wanting to write a post about the massive rallies taking place around the country against specific proposals within the larger immigration reform debate. The protestors, the vast majority of whom have been Mexican-American and Mexican, want to make sure that the outcome of immigration reform does not resemble the bill that has currently passed the House of Representatives. Here are some of its most controversial provisions:
- Requires up to 700 miles (1100 km) of fence along the US-Mexican border at points with the highest number of immigrant deaths.
- All illegals before deported must pay a fine of $3,000 if they agree to leave voluntarily but do not adhere to the terms of their agreement. The grace period for voluntary departure is shortened to 60 days.
- All children born to illegal immigrants in the United States will become wards of the state.
- Housing of illegals will be considered a felony and subject to no less than 3 years in prison.
- Increases penalties for employing illegal aliens to $7,500 for first time offenses, $15,000 for second offenses, and $40,000 for all subsequent offenses.
Where do members of our larger community, South Asian Americans, stand on this issue? The fact that only a few groups representing South Asian American perspectives are voicing an opinion in this debate is indicative of the fact that there are cracks in our community. These divisions are becoming more apparent as we continue to integrate into the mainstream. An issue like immigration reform serves not only to reveal differences in opinion within our community but also provides an opportunity to learn from and to engage those in the community who have a life experience that differs from your own.
SAALT has been leading the charge against some of the proposed reforms (in solidarity with groups like La Raza and most recently the NAACP) while USINPAC has been completely silent on the issue (probably too busy worrying about India’s well-being and having their pictures taken with important people). Our larger community is likely to be divided on this issue along lines of citizenship status and socio-economic background. For example, an economically well-off South Asian American, born in the U.S., who’s parents came here legally, is much less likely to get involved then a South Asian American born here who’s parents arrived illegally, or one that is currently working here illegally. I believe however that this is a debate we should all voice an opinion on regardless of our status.
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p>Arguably the single most controversial provision in the House Bill is the one that makes it a felony to even provide aid or shelter to an illegal immigrant [aside: Polls show that your opinion on this issue depends on whether the person conducting a poll uses the term illegal alien, illegal immigrant, or undocumented worker]. For weeks now I have been combing the news in search of accounts of South Asians at these massive rallies. I haven’t had much luck. Over the weekend I was at a bachelor party in Las Vegas. During periods of “calm” we discussed immigration reform quite a bit. One of my buddies has worked to represent the interests of South Asian taxi drivers in NYC. I asked him why we haven’t heard more from this group. He wasn’t sure. A significant number of South Asian cabbies are illegal/undocumented and their participation/visible involvement in these rallies would surely add to the pressure on Congress. I would bet that there are a significant number of undocumented South Asians working in the hotel industry and at gas stations as well.
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Where we stand right now is that the House has passed its bill but the Senate’s more tame version got derailed by the right flank of the Republican party and by Democrats who were worried about last minute changes. The reason to voice your opinion on this issue now is because the final bill will be completed in a conference committee. That is when leaders in the House and Senate hash out differences and then send the final version to the President (see How a Bill Becomes a Law). Any pressure put on Congress leading up to that conference committee will affect it’s outcome.
Finally, to get to the point of this post. The biggest rallies will be held nation-wide on Monday. Members of our community need to take a stand and make our opinions known. This post (and the comments that will hopefully follow), is intended as a resource for that debate. I know where I stand on this issue. I am for a guest worker program. I am against making felons out of all illegal immigrants and those that support or give them aid. I am most emphatically against building a wall on our border with Mexico. I want to know where some of you stand so that members of our community can engage this debate armed with more knowledge. We can no longer just sit back and watch from the sidelines the important national issues that don’t solely affect us. Our larger community has been pigeon-holed right now as only being interested in a few selected issues. We need to voice our opinion on THIS issue, not just here on this website but with our multi-ethnic friends, co-workers, and Congressional representatives. If you can attend a rally tomorrow I suggest you do. Even if you don’t agree with everything the protestors are saying you will at least have more information to form an opinion with. That is not the only way to participate however. Just talk about this with someone at lunch or with friends or even with your parents. I just don’t want us to watch this debate silently while all the other immigrant communities affected by this make their voices heard. Our voices need to be heard as well.
The recent demonstrations by hundreds of thousands of immigration supporters appeared to have one distinct face: Latino. But members of Asian, African, Haitian and other ethnic groups say that is an illusion that they will dispel by pouring out in large numbers at huge rallies planned for tomorrow.Koreans said they will march in Philadelphia and Los Angeles, banging traditional protest drums. Chinese said they will parade out of Chinatowns in San Francisco, New York, Chicago and Philadelphia, led by marchers wearing colorful dragon costumes. Haitians said they will be heard in Miami and New York, and Africans said they will be among the tens of thousands who will gather at the Washington Monument.”
All of what is happening around immigration reform in the country is not a Latino-originated movement at all,” said Deepa Iyer, executive director of the South Asian American Leaders of Tomorrow, a national group based in Silver Spring. “There are also Asian and African groups working together. From where I stand, I feel that our community is greatly invested in the issue.”
Asian groups have become particularly concerned about immigration as the United States steps up its efforts to deport illegal Chinese and Korean immigrants. The Department of Homeland Security recently said that it is close to an agreement with China over the repatriation of about 39,000 Chinese immigrants. Korean activists said families have been torn apart when immigrant parents were deported while their American-born children remained in the United States. [Link]
See previous posts: Immigration smokescreen, Movement Without Immigration
ROTFL
i read the last comment again. i’m still laughing…i need my asthma inhaler.
wha…??
context. he meant moi.
also, what does the southern wall have to do with my family? we landed in JFK on a british airline. the stewardess was really nice, she gave me some free archie comics. i couldn’t read them, but i remember that jughead crashed some person powered plane, does anyone remember this? circa 1982. also, the eggs on the plane tasted like plastic. back then, (world – anus smell) = plastic. anyone else remember how strange a supermarket smelled? anyway….
i think (world – anus smell)= plastic
should go on a t-shirt. but i’m weird like that.
If the issue involves Mexicans who have legitimate reasons for deserving US citizenship but are not able to secure this legally, perhaps the discussion should also focus on addressing the reasons as to why this is not happening and, therefore, why such individuals are having to resort to illegal methods in their efforts to emigrate to the US.
I think there are several issues here:
(1) Illegal Immigrants are indeed taking jobs from low income/unskilled Americans and actually depressing their wages. In my Mid-Western city, I see more and more restaurants now manned by illegal aliens. A lot of factory jobs and other low income/unskilled jobs are now going to illegal aliens and the native born white and especially black population is taking a hit from a depression of wages and increased competition at low end/unskilled jobs. I am not sure how the poor/unskilled blacks and whites benefit from increased competition and lower wages at their jobs.
(2) Illegal aliens themselves are struggling more as recently arrived illegal aliens are willing to work for less and longer than an illegal alien who has been here for some years and has American born kids, food stamps, fake documents, some legitimacy. If you have loads and loads of desperate poorer people breathing down your neck, your situation economically might never improve as the employer can always hire the more desperate recently arrived illegal immigrant. The wages at those jobs might stagnate or actually keep falling as more and more desperate people compete for those jobs.
(3)We should grant partial amnesty to all the illegal aliens in the US who meet certain requirements and put them on a path to permanent residency. Maybe we can do a guest worker – certain number of years and requirements then – green card. However once they get their green cards, they need to wait in line and the legal immigrants should be the ones who get citizenship before the illegal aliens.
(4) Once we grant partial amnesty to all the illegal aliens in the US, it will create a tremendous incentive for more illegals to come in. To combat that we would need draconian punishments on businesses who still continue to hire illegals, look at the feasability of building a wall on the border, strictly enforce immigration laws and pass federal laws which will make it impossible for illegal aliens to survive in the US. We can then of course let in more low skilled people legally for humanitarian or economic reasons.
razib: about your comment on the scots-irish and puritans. could you explain a little further? I see what you are saying but what about the poor europeans(irish, italians etc that came in. I’m guessing many of them were a rough and tumnle lot. perhaps they were more urban and a bit less warlink on average. also they tended to settle in cities vs rural areas except for the(well the only 2 I can think of) germans and scandinavians. well at least a lot of germans settled in the rural areas(not sure if most). I believe the germans had a somewhat more civilized culture than the scots irish as I believe there were a significant amt of german settlers in the 18th century in the appalachians as in western md(my home state) I think the italian immigrants were a very rough and tumble lot?
vivo,
fisher’s thesis that the founding settler populations had a out-of-size impact on the long term cultural trajectory of a region. that is, even though mass. is mostly irish now, with only a small yankee minority, the irish imbibed yankee sensibilities as they assimilated to “american” culture. fisher is arguing that there are 4 american cultures, not 1, and the one you assimilate too is contingent upon where you settle. i don’t think that his argument is totally air-tight, but for what it is worth northern whites have consistently registered higher IQs than southern whites. this could be a function of cultural inputs or selection biasing of the initial migrants.
as for the character of immigrants, note that jews pushed up the SES ladder very quickly. italian americans have finally caught up, but it took them until this generations (or the last). similar with the irish catholics. capital can be built up, but if you don’t bring some seed money it takes a lot longer to get going.
This may be somewhat off topic, but has anybody on this board have done a post about Indo-Canadians vs Indo-americans.
Since I live in Canada but have spent some time in the states. I have been surprised at much more intergrated the desi’s in the states are then they are in canada. The % of desi’s that don’t speak english is much higher in Canada then they are in the states. And you don’t have as may desi’s only area’s in the states as you do in Canada.
Living in Vancouver the last 3 years has made me sick of multicultrism, and wishing for the melting pot process of intergration that the States has.
PearlJamFan Living in Vancouver the last 3 years has made me sick of multicultrism, and wishing for the melting pot process of intergration that the States has.
The difference is numbers. Canadians South Asians are probably far better integrated than their US counterparts. Would there ever be a US equivalent to Ujjal Dosanjh — a desi politician not based on an ethnic constituency? In politics, media, arts, culture, and sport, Desis are more integrated in Canada than the US. But they are less assimilated.
Desis make up 3% of the Canadian pop, and 8% of of greater Vancouver (5% of vancouverites, one out every 20 people, speak Punjabi at home!). And Indians and Pakistanis alone make up 15% of all new immigrants to Canada — so the proportions will only incrase. I doubt integration will decline, but even if Rahim Jaffer is PM and Ruby Dhalla leader of the opposition, assimilation will slow.
Now, that said, your big problem is living in Vancouver. Move to Saskatoon or FlinFlon and you will find the miniscule number of Desis, even Punjabis, plenty well integrated.
PearlJamFan, numbers matter. you have no choice but to integrate if you can’t withdraw into little punjab 🙂 also, i suspect whites aren’t as scared of americo-browns since we don’t go gangland on their asses now & then 🙂
why’s that?
You might live next to someone, but that doesn’t mean they’re your buddy. When I was growing up we would drive hours just to spend time with other bengali families.
When I was growing up we would drive hours just to spend time with other bengali families.
same here. but day-to-day interactions forced upon you by circumstance have a long term humanizing effect (sometimes).
The reason I’m sick of multicutrism is that it encourages newcomers not to assimlate into there new country but keep that old way of doing things.
Just look at some of the problems in the punjabi coummunity in Vancouver. There have been over 100 gang murders and almost all of them are punjabi killing punjabi. The only 2 honor killing this decade in canada were punjabi girls. And just look at the sexism, boys who barely pass grade 10 get a new car, yet girls have to be perfect or there family loses honors.
And another thing I have noticed here is that punjabi tend to keep to themselves here both the older generation and the younger generation. They don’t not want to muix at all.
But now some of those same problems are spreading to the punjabi communites in the San Jose and Fresno areas of California.
A few years ago an article in San Jose newpaper said that they were about 100,000 desi’s in the bay area. Punjabi’s made of 25% of them yet all of the 500 desi’ kids in gangs were of a punjabi backgroud
come on man, you need to chill with the haterade on punjabis, we’re not that bad
My way or the highway? The west is the best?
My mom is a Dhaliwal and my dad is a Dhillon, so you can’t get much more punjabi then me. The reason I’m hard on them is that I don;t like the way the punjabi coummntiy in the west is gonna look in the future if they don’t accept the fact that they are no longer living in the punjab.
Will you go easy on PearlJamFan please? He’s been teased about his taste in music by these Punjabi gangsters – he needs to let off steam.
Sorry to tell you Pablo, but those punjabi gangesters teasing me for my taste in music are not around any more since they ended up killing each other.
PearlJamFan
Are you sure they didnt fall to the ground in shame at your sensitivity when you sang an Eddie Vedder song to them?
Clearly I remembaaaaa pickin’ on da boy Seemed like a harmless lil fck But we unleashed a liooooon
PearlJamFan The reason I’m sick of multicutrism is that it encourages newcomers not to assimlate into there new country but keep that old way of doing things.
But Toronto Desis live under those same laws and are not associated with crime, drugs, or honour-killings. Punjabis here in Toronto are better educated and more likely to speak English than Vancouver Punjabis (I did some digging on statcan).
The problems among west coast desis, wich you’ve correctly identified, don’t have to do exculsively with multiculturalism, being Sikh, being Punjabi, or preferring Ra Da Punjabi Rapper over Eddie Vedder. Maybe it’s because of all that rain you get?
Yo, this MoFo PearlJam listening boy came by while I was with my boys listening to Big Suga Kane, we were jus’ sellin’ some crack to some ho’s on the block, man I was about to pop a cap in that paanchod Jagbinder Singhs ass, when the brown boy dressed like a gora maaderchod played Jeremy by Pearl Jam, I dropped my gun, stop slapping my bitches, stopped killing Jat boys, man I saw the light! He saved me! Yo PearlJamBoy! No more drive by’s and crack dealing nor pimpin’ or blunt smokin no more – man, where’s this Jatt paanchod lookin’ at my sister, yo maaderchod Binder Singh I’m a gonna kill yo family! Let me listen to some Bohemian the Punjabi Rapper my Jatt boy from Cali, smoke some weed and kill some more ho’s. Where’s that Pearl Jam album when you needs to listen to it?
Pablo hates all music.
Only punk.
Oh, that’s how we know each other! My archnemesis, we meet again.
three cheers for Ikram for one of the pithiest statements heard on the board.
Hey PJF- I am not happy about the fruit and nuts out on the West coast, but we cant all be keeners yearning for acceptance, like the folks down south. if our paths leads to ruin, so be it. at least we got to live it out our way without anyone telling us this is the “right” way.
i understand PJ Fan if you’re disenchanted but you’re going slightly too negative about the whole thing. it’s all good, but just to add some diversity, Punjab or Punjabis aren’t all bad.
Chenad Jhelum Sutlej Ravi Beas till we die yo 🙂
Thinking of calling my lawnmower and telling him that I have the right to inspect the papers of anyone on my property, and they better be having them on their person. Am trying to organise some other desis to do the same with their landscapers and lawnmowers.
LetŽs not put the entire burden on the Government. Each one has to do their part.
M. Nam
This is why I only hire white people to do my manual labor. Don’t want those damn Mexicans walking all over my lawn!
why don’t you just import a good mali?
“This is why I only hire white people to do my manual labor. Don’t want those damn Mexicans walking all over my lawn!”
Some of the white people might be saying that about desis as well when you are in the whiteland and take away their jobs. damn indians!
I like how we come to this side of the planet and suddenly get all self-righteous and sanctimonious about other people’s paperwork. In the spirit of consistency, let’s try and apply that principle the next time we’re in the motherland and some 75 year old man is bringing you chai and an 8 year old kid is sweeping your aunt’s floors every morning and being paid about $10 a month to do it.
ummm, becuz i was equally self-righteous about my own papers and worked hard to get em right? cuz i dont want to be yet another exploiter of illegal workers?
arent these good enuf reasons to ask for others’ papers??
Well if the sentiment behind asking for others’ papers was to stop the exploitation of workers, that would be wonderful. But considering the way in which the US already exploits its workers – legal or illegal, I hardly think this is much of a concern. Ever read Nickel and Dimed? That’s a great account of fully legalised workers accross the US being worked to the bone and and being screwed over at every opportunity by profit-hungry businesses. So the “we’re doing this for their own good” argument doesn’t really fly. I don’t think anyone can convincingly show that the welfare and wellbeing of workers is in any way a priority in the US today.
brownfrown, yes well, i guess thats whats called hypocrisy… and ur spot on about the self-righteousness as well…
re: brownfrown
keep frownin’ my friend because you comments are spot-on. treating workers like shit(and don’t scream red! at me just yet Ynot, im not a commie) has just become so normal that extreme right-wingers think its crazy for people to demand to be treated like ‘humans’ with ‘rights’ and dignity’.
am trying to organise an amnesty international public debate at the moment at my university, and it is very sad to see some people in the media etc. who we have asked to participate think that ‘human rights’ are not important.
even the most selfish person on earth wants to save their own ass and be treated with some basic dignity. if people can’t agree on this, then we might as well just give up and let the apes take over. at least they keep each other nit-free.
where is the love, people?
tashie, 2 ?’s for ya:
1) do u have a blog that u like to
rave/rantdebate on? =)heh heh… jus kiddeen!! 2) what are u studying at uni.? just wondering as u have mentioned uni. on several posts…if u dont mind me asking that is…
=)d.
dude:
i am in my second year of a B.A. in politics and a Law degree at auckland uni – don’t worry, americanos, its not a v important place except if you compare it to the only place lower than us in the world -antarctica. that’s right i AM more intelligent than ice and frozen rock…ahem.
hoping to be a human rights lawyer but will probably go corporate quicker than you can say ‘sell out!/quarter life crisis/model migrant’. until then, the poor pragmatic souls on here will have to listen to my idealistic self-indulgent rants, muahahaha!
i do not have a blog and didn’t even know that such a strange and wonderful virtual world existed until my friend mel moved to aus and kept in touch through hers… but my recent addiction to sepiamutiny seems to call for me to start my own.
yet even now i am just procrastinatin’ when should be making up some drama pieces for my students…
it is just v nice to find a brown community of like-minded people. i moved from bombay to a small hick-town in nz (which is itself the small hick-town of the world, maaaaa-te!) so its nice to get a bit more chocolate along with ma’ daily vanilla.
are you a raving misinformed idealistic politics student too? we need to band together in this cold and cruel world. die, evil starbucks mccorporate misogynistic exploitative neo-imperalist MAN, die.
um, not quite, though one of the things i did study waas psc, but most of my knowledge comes more from the field, as it were.
although, i wouldnt knock sb’s too much, they have been a lifesaver in the city… always a sb’s nearby no matter where u r, ahrm, rather, always a sb’s loo nearby no matter where in the city u r… ahrm ahrm…sometimes i feel guilty, and will down a espDoppio just to show how macho i am.
though been fascinated with nz for a while, ever since the nz lamb ads growing up, and long before lotr’s. bit cold though isnt it…
and i ask because we def. share similar ideas about some things, not all i am sure… i’d have emailed u rather then have asked in the public forum, but no email addy…
try blogger to begin with, got mine there, unrelated to sm matters though…
tash/ tashie: remember, by caricaturing all viewpoints which are not same as yours as “extreme right wing” you are only exposing yourself as a extreme “bleeding heart liberal”. Both those types are but 2 sides of the same coin.
Human rights are indeed important and worth fighting for. but if u reduce everything to extremes in your idealistic fervor (like effectively saying “all big corporations are evil”, instead of recognizing that its a mixed bag and ill effects have to be minimized, probably never to be eliminated completely) you just come across as immature to me. I do believe I come from a more realistic place. For example, by asking workers to be legal, I am not trying to do them some good or anything, but instead protecting myself by potential hassles and hopefully also set a small example for others.
hi ynot,
i never said all big companies are evil, when i was talkin about the mcstarbucks thing i was just jokin’, takin the mickey outa myself cos i actually do agree with you that what we need is a balance. there are v good elements of left and right. its just that in western countries the ‘centre’ has effectively shifted right, which makes people some favour a balance look like bleeding heart liberals….i know there’s a whole spectrum of views. i don’t really mind if you think i’m immature, until i officially end my teen years i think immature is a ok by me if it means that i can still have ‘fervour’ or what i see as passion rather than ‘urgh, let’s just pick the lesser of two evils…’ meh-ness.
in a way im a big fat supporter of the right, cos i come from a human rights-based perspective. not left or right, just lookin at policies to see which ones best support people’s basic dignities.
just wanted to say that all in all i agree with you, but disagree with you disagreeing with me when i was agreeing with you…if that makes sense.
Hmm. I have really mixed feelings about the cuurent situation.
First of all..people who come to the US should want to come here to BE americans.
They should NOT come here with the idea that they can create Atazlan, and that certain southwestern states BELONG to Latinos ONLY.
Of coarse, the first thing I would expect to hear from this crowd is: “Oh , that’s just an extreme minority”
Perhaps, but in many ways HR 3347 brought these emotions and thoughts out into the light.
The other factor is: 12 million illegal immigrants here…we could have had 12 million LEGAL immigrants from all over the world, Not just Mexico and other central and south american countries.
I agree when people say we need to make immigration and being a guest worker easier and less time consuming. HR 4437 is way overboard. But do you honestly think that the large portion of latinos protesting really want fair amounts of people coming from asia, europe, and africa?
I highly doubt it. They want latinos.
Oh, in response to Kush/ Post 14: It takes MONEY for most “business starters” to immigrate, and even then the process is ridiculous. See this:
http://www.watchingamerica.com/watchingamerica000001.shtml