For weeks now I’ve been wanting to write a post about the massive rallies taking place around the country against specific proposals within the larger immigration reform debate. The protestors, the vast majority of whom have been Mexican-American and Mexican, want to make sure that the outcome of immigration reform does not resemble the bill that has currently passed the House of Representatives. Here are some of its most controversial provisions:
- Requires up to 700 miles (1100 km) of fence along the US-Mexican border at points with the highest number of immigrant deaths.
- All illegals before deported must pay a fine of $3,000 if they agree to leave voluntarily but do not adhere to the terms of their agreement. The grace period for voluntary departure is shortened to 60 days.
- All children born to illegal immigrants in the United States will become wards of the state.
- Housing of illegals will be considered a felony and subject to no less than 3 years in prison.
- Increases penalties for employing illegal aliens to $7,500 for first time offenses, $15,000 for second offenses, and $40,000 for all subsequent offenses.
Where do members of our larger community, South Asian Americans, stand on this issue? The fact that only a few groups representing South Asian American perspectives are voicing an opinion in this debate is indicative of the fact that there are cracks in our community. These divisions are becoming more apparent as we continue to integrate into the mainstream. An issue like immigration reform serves not only to reveal differences in opinion within our community but also provides an opportunity to learn from and to engage those in the community who have a life experience that differs from your own.
SAALT has been leading the charge against some of the proposed reforms (in solidarity with groups like La Raza and most recently the NAACP) while USINPAC has been completely silent on the issue (probably too busy worrying about India’s well-being and having their pictures taken with important people). Our larger community is likely to be divided on this issue along lines of citizenship status and socio-economic background. For example, an economically well-off South Asian American, born in the U.S., who’s parents came here legally, is much less likely to get involved then a South Asian American born here who’s parents arrived illegally, or one that is currently working here illegally. I believe however that this is a debate we should all voice an opinion on regardless of our status.
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p>Arguably the single most controversial provision in the House Bill is the one that makes it a felony to even provide aid or shelter to an illegal immigrant [aside: Polls show that your opinion on this issue depends on whether the person conducting a poll uses the term illegal alien, illegal immigrant, or undocumented worker]. For weeks now I have been combing the news in search of accounts of South Asians at these massive rallies. I haven’t had much luck. Over the weekend I was at a bachelor party in Las Vegas. During periods of “calm” we discussed immigration reform quite a bit. One of my buddies has worked to represent the interests of South Asian taxi drivers in NYC. I asked him why we haven’t heard more from this group. He wasn’t sure. A significant number of South Asian cabbies are illegal/undocumented and their participation/visible involvement in these rallies would surely add to the pressure on Congress. I would bet that there are a significant number of undocumented South Asians working in the hotel industry and at gas stations as well.
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Where we stand right now is that the House has passed its bill but the Senate’s more tame version got derailed by the right flank of the Republican party and by Democrats who were worried about last minute changes. The reason to voice your opinion on this issue now is because the final bill will be completed in a conference committee. That is when leaders in the House and Senate hash out differences and then send the final version to the President (see How a Bill Becomes a Law). Any pressure put on Congress leading up to that conference committee will affect it’s outcome.
Finally, to get to the point of this post. The biggest rallies will be held nation-wide on Monday. Members of our community need to take a stand and make our opinions known. This post (and the comments that will hopefully follow), is intended as a resource for that debate. I know where I stand on this issue. I am for a guest worker program. I am against making felons out of all illegal immigrants and those that support or give them aid. I am most emphatically against building a wall on our border with Mexico. I want to know where some of you stand so that members of our community can engage this debate armed with more knowledge. We can no longer just sit back and watch from the sidelines the important national issues that don’t solely affect us. Our larger community has been pigeon-holed right now as only being interested in a few selected issues. We need to voice our opinion on THIS issue, not just here on this website but with our multi-ethnic friends, co-workers, and Congressional representatives. If you can attend a rally tomorrow I suggest you do. Even if you don’t agree with everything the protestors are saying you will at least have more information to form an opinion with. That is not the only way to participate however. Just talk about this with someone at lunch or with friends or even with your parents. I just don’t want us to watch this debate silently while all the other immigrant communities affected by this make their voices heard. Our voices need to be heard as well.
The recent demonstrations by hundreds of thousands of immigration supporters appeared to have one distinct face: Latino. But members of Asian, African, Haitian and other ethnic groups say that is an illusion that they will dispel by pouring out in large numbers at huge rallies planned for tomorrow.Koreans said they will march in Philadelphia and Los Angeles, banging traditional protest drums. Chinese said they will parade out of Chinatowns in San Francisco, New York, Chicago and Philadelphia, led by marchers wearing colorful dragon costumes. Haitians said they will be heard in Miami and New York, and Africans said they will be among the tens of thousands who will gather at the Washington Monument.”
All of what is happening around immigration reform in the country is not a Latino-originated movement at all,” said Deepa Iyer, executive director of the South Asian American Leaders of Tomorrow, a national group based in Silver Spring. “There are also Asian and African groups working together. From where I stand, I feel that our community is greatly invested in the issue.”
Asian groups have become particularly concerned about immigration as the United States steps up its efforts to deport illegal Chinese and Korean immigrants. The Department of Homeland Security recently said that it is close to an agreement with China over the repatriation of about 39,000 Chinese immigrants. Korean activists said families have been torn apart when immigrant parents were deported while their American-born children remained in the United States. [Link]
See previous posts: Immigration smokescreen, Movement Without Immigration
To Razib the Atheist I agree with almost everything you say.
Since I live in Canada this issue does not really affect me as much. But If I was in charge I would invade the north part of mexico and make it a new part of the united states.
thanks dude for replyin to that bongo guy…i know the word ‘colonisation’ would just be seen as bringin’ up all that crap again, but the fact is that the usa basically acts as an imperial superpower compared to the rest of the world, even little white first world countries like new zealand feel the effects of that. Witness the rejection of the USA to ratify the International Criminal Court, the Kyoto Protocol and the new UN permanent commission on human rights (along with Israel and for some strange reason Somalia) thereby making such agreements signed by over a hundred other countries including NZ 🙂 seem pretty much meaningless.
if something positive could happen in the USA out of this debate it would also send a great message to the rest of the world.
the attitude that people coming over from mexico should be ‘grateful’ because their life is now slightly less crapalicious is just a sign of how people have internalised the neo-liberal idea that the poor are poor because it is their fault. being from a third world country, I know that poor are poor because they are kept poor.
Mexicans are poor because of historical injustices and trade agreements orchestrated by America through the WTO and IMF to create an unfair economic global market.
Poor Indians are poor because they are outside the caste system, because they are indigenous people displaced in the name of development and because they start off from such an underprivileged position in life that even their survival is amazing.
We might happen to be in the upper or middle classes not just because we worked hard and went to med/law school but also because we started off from a privileged position that allowed us to be able to have those opportunities, compared to poorer immigrants. Not everyone’s mummies and daddies can pay for badminton lessons and extra tutoring.
I KNOW it sounds cheesy, and maybe it is my lovely clean, green air and my peaceful, unimportant little country, but how about giving something back, or giving people to whom we are linked by the shared experience of post-colonial migration a helping hand?
Maybe Mexicans wouldn’t march for us, but don’t you think the fact that we are comparatively a more privileged immigrant voice would make our marches more influential? If Jewish people went and marched about Israeli rights, who thinks the govt would listen more than they would to Rwandan people who were concerned about their rights? We’re not all rolling in money or whatever, but I know that in the US Indian immigrants are one of the more privileged groups.
since september 11 an anti-foreigner sentiment doesn’t mean that we’re all being oppressed by a white majority, it just means that at some point people who have moved to another country do have to admit that we are in a more vulnerable position that people from first world countries regarding our human rights. the terrorist searches at airports is just an example that applies to us, but putting it in context there is a wider pattern of anti-migrant sentiment taking effect. governments are tightening up their immigration laws, refusing more refugees, even refusing more well-off immigrants.
all i am trying to say is that i feel that legal, educated and comparatively powerful immigrants over in countries like america and here in other first world countries,have a lot of power which isn’t being as effectively utilised as it could to help out others within the refugee and migrant communities.
yes, if you look at it from a certain view its not our problem and they should just get in line. but if you look at it from another point of view with this ‘get in line view.’ Imagine you ask two people to run a race. One person is healthy and the other has broken legs. If the person with broken legs loses, is it really completely their fault that they lose? How about making the race (no pun intended) a bit fairer?
why don’t we use our cultural identity not just to look at our own issues but those of others who are less well-off and more vulnerable in society? I think we have a lot more power than we realise, and we can use it to do good, even if that good is just turnin’ up and showin your mutinous little brown face in protest at something unfair.
all people who continue this argument in a scary neoliberal, ‘let’s not care about the poor’, ‘life’s not fair get used to it’ etc vein go give someone a big hug 🙂 Not only will it make you feel v loved and happy, it’ll also remind you of our shared humanity. Life will never be 100% fair, but we can always do little things to help make it a bit better for others.
Share the love! It’s way more fun and all the cool people do it.
But If I was in charge I would invade the north part of mexico and make it a new part of the united states.
we go separate directions here! i’m not an expansionist, i’m a partitionist. if i was dictator i would separate the united states into half a dozen regional countries. hell, here in the pacific northwest we probably share much with folks in vancouver, BC, than with those east of the rockies or down in proto-aztlan. we’re too big a nation as it is.
At what stage of their evolution to desi right wingers become rednecks?
tashie, well put, but, i dont think this matters a whole lot to people of particular mindet.
its a malaise, and primarily the reason i think why s.e. asia ia more developed than us in s.asia. we scr** ourselves. note the people in expensive cars driving along potholed streets, or past garbage dumped on street corner, maybe a block away from the dumpees employers house, or the throwing of garbage out of th ewindow of said expensive car…etc etc..
peole have an attitude that as long as they are well/better off, everyone else isnt because they are lazy, stupid, or not trying enough.
i recall my mum raving about how stoopid the poor people are, she runs a community health centre in the oorest part of the city, which is free basically, and how they dont try to improve their lot. dad said well, if they come to ur house, ur business, would u give them a job? ofcourse not. VAST majority of South Asia is dirt poor, infact, they might have to save up to be dirt poor. the cities make up a fraction of the population, the middle and upper classes make up even a smaller fraction of that. this malaise gets exported over, so when thye open their mouths, what comes out is the same garbage, much like the stuff coming out of expensive car windows, and they dont care about who else it affects. best perhaps like i said they leave the country afterall.
dont get me wrong, i am not saying they arent lazy or they dont try, cause that is true as well, but the majority of people who are that underpoverished arent so because they would rather stay at home and watch Star Tv or BBC Worldwide. i’m no socialist, but maybe some of these loud mouths need to go and visit and live in a few developing world countries in latin america, africa and asia, and see what conditions people live in before pronouncing great ignorance under the guise of educated musing and statistics. if u own a compuetr and and/or have access to the interwebs, u are waaaay above the majority of people of ur countries.
ooops, stoopeed pc did a number, sorry peoples, admin thanks to remove 2nd copy..!
=)
PS:
o,m…goddd, todays truest statement
PJFan, look up today’s globe, in particular the article by freeman. there’s more to it than the masses are jabbering about.
i’m no socialist, but maybe some of these loud mouths need to go and visit and live in a few developing world countries in latin america, africa and asia, and see what conditions people live in before pronouncing great ignorance under the guise of educated musing and statistics
i was born in an anus of the world (dhaka, bangladesh) and lived there for 5 years (almost died once because of a severe illness induced by germs & pollution) and have visited a few times. does that give me creds? (unfortunately, my father wasn’t a rickshawalla).
anyway, the main reason i spoke up on this thread is that abhi seemed to imply that brown americans might be able to show common solidarity. well, i don’t think so. i don’t believe we’re 90% democrats, and i don’t think all of us share the same vision of quasi-open-borders-america. more power to you if you want to pack this country fill with all sorts. i have two choices i can make in my life open to me, i can live in america as just-another-dude, not a plutocrat or a pauper, just a joe-schmo in a republic, or, i can go go work for my uncle in bangladesh and surround myself with lackeys and servants. the latter isn’t the worst choice in the world, and life isn’t fair for sure, i was born with more choice that 90% of humanity. that being said, i want to preserve a society in the USA where everyone doesn’t expect to have a nanny or a gardner because they can get them cheap handfulls by the dozen. if lower unskilled immigration levels means more expensive produce, i’m willing to accept it as the cost of living in a society of peers.
and here we go again with the “redneck” references. if someone is poor & white & uneducated, they be ignorant. if they are poor & non-white & uneducated they need a helping hand. when i see toothless white crank and meth addicts walking around some of the sleepy towns in the pacific northwest i’m not seeing someone who has “white skin privilege.”
“At what stage of their evolution to desi right wingers become rednecks?”
May be the moment they are naturalized..
abhi-
in response to your thoughts on involvement of other communities, there were plenty of latino and non-latino country flags on screen at the new york rally including bangladeshi and sri lankan flags (they had large screens and speakers at every other block so everyone could see/hear the speakers)…and the folks from the taxi workers alliance were there. also, various south asian/asian/african/irish groups particpated in the new york rally, inluding Immigrant Communities in Action which is a mutli ethic coalition of grassroots organizations.
Very well put. Interesting how the people who make those “redneck” comparisons claim to be speaking against “stereotyping” and “discrimination” on these boards. As long as you agree with their version of “anti-stereotyping”…
“that being said, i want to preserve a society in the USA where everyone doesn’t expect to have a nanny or a gardner because they can get them cheap handfulls by the dozen. if lower unskilled immigration levels means more expensive produce, i’m willing to accept it as the cost of living in a society of peers.”
You are talking about extremes. The U.S isn’t becoming Bangladesh because of immigration. Your idea of ‘preserving’ leaves out the fact that may be in the process of getting cheap labour, a lot of them are getting an opportunity to live in a better world as well. Immigration is as old as civilization and it will continue to happen – 12 million in a country of 300 mil people is sustainable. No society can live within electric fences – but that is not to say that we should leave the borders open. Have strict laws, but keep in mind that there are always people who would risk their lives to come here; because that is the innate nature of human beings, and especially when there exists a disparity as much as it is between u.s and mexico.
Nope – when they start talking about Mexicans as an undifferentiated lumpen mass of scroungers, when they start talking about how their country needs to be annexed and taken over, when they describe places as being like anuses, when they….ah, you get the idea.
Why’d that pain you Vikram? Do you feel misunderstood and a victim yourself, eh?
tashie said:
NO Its not as simple as that. Its not all US’s fault that a nation with such abundance of natural resources cant have higher living standard. Its MUCH MUCH more complex than saying … oh its all IMF’s fault.
Although I share the sentiment expressed by “Senior Indiano” I ABSOLUTELY hate the term “redneck”. It is racial SLUR, period.
What about personal responsibility?? I thought republicans were the party of personal responsibility, and keeping the government out of their lives ??
What about personal responsibility?? I thought republicans were the party of personal responsibility, and keeping the government out of their lives ??
so? i’m not a republican.
when they describe places as being like anuses
sniff the air when you get off the plain in dhaka and get back to me 🙂 i’m not being metaphorical.
You are talking about extremes. The U.S isn’t becoming Bangladesh because of immigration. Your idea of ‘preserving’ leaves out the fact that may be in the process of getting cheap labour, a lot of them are getting an opportunity to live in a better world as well. Immigration is as old as civilization and it will continue to happen
you are talking in extremes as well. i’m not talking about closing the borders, i’m talking about creating an immigration system more like the canadian one. emphasize educational qualifications instead of a spanish surname (this is what you are doing when you allow undocumented a back-door toward normalization because geography has gifted them with a nearby border). the as for the ‘opportunity to live in a better world,’ i have made it clear why that doesn’t persuade me: in a world of 6.6 billion mexicans are not an exceptional case of want. if you were talking about resettling refugees from darfur, or the millions from congo and liberia it would be harder for me to argue against because the misery rises to such a threshold that even my utility calculations might have to set aside. but mexico is not a poor country (eg., $10 K per capita GDP vs. $3.4 K for India), it just happens to be a much poorer country than the USA.
Your idea of ‘preserving’ leaves out the fact that may be in the process of getting cheap labour, a lot of them are getting an opportunity to live in a better world as well. Immigration is as old as civilization and it will continue to happen – 12 million in a country of 300 mil people is sustainable.
yes, but look closely at the numbers. those 12 million tend to move into a few states. it isn’t just absolute numbers, it’s density. anyway, it would be more sustainable if the individuals brought more social capital, but as it is many of the undocumented do not.
so you truely would support (or wouldn’t argue against) resettling millions from congo to the united states? well, may be that is becuase you know that nobody is asking for it. Immigration happens mostly with the immediate neighbours – that is the reality everywehre. So, your utopian examples of resettling the poor from Congo has no semblance of reality. Mexico is a much poorer country compared to united states. thats all that matters. all i am saying is that there is a much higher purpose to life – atleast in my view – beyond preserving what we have. if we can part some of what we enjoy here to the less privileged in a sustainable way, I am all for it, and in my view, 12 mil in 300 mil population is not a big deal and in the process they also provide a cheat work force – it is a win-win situation, except of course for paranoids who think that our ‘culture’ will be lost to the mexicans.
“those 12 million tend to move into a few states” may be so. California is the fifth largest economy in the world – so you are not saying that it is really hurting california that much. are you?
@ Dude and Tashie: I can’t go through all of it again – but if you read my blog-post on this debate, I mention that I am not minimizing the contributions of an illegal Mexican relative to that of a legal PhD degree holder. Neither did I try to show any attitude of superiority. I am also not going into the question of whether it is right or wrong for someone to emigrate to the US – that is a whole different issue. I am just trying to say that I personally cannot have much sympathy for people protesting loudly about a right to stay in the USA, when they got into this country contravening its laws in the first place. This is not a superiority thing – I just think its plain wrong. If some poor Mexican labourers and farmers were protesting about working conditions, I would support them. I am also saying that for those who are jumping through the legal hoops trying to stay here legally – all this charade with the illegals is quite disheartening. Of course, some wiseass will say ‘life is not fair’ – but then that’s the end to all arguements.
Btw, on this other issue – I dont know how this ties up with the present debate but;
Such beautiful visual metaphors! Unfortunately, if you look at the segment of the population that tries to get legal residency in the US (at least from India) they are the middle and lower middle classes that could not afford the expensive car in India. THAT is why they are here in the US – to pursue a dream. Elitist with cars and rows of servants do not usually end up in the USA.
With globalizationa and improving economies in India, the situation is also changing – such that a lot of people are going back to India and buying those expensive cars – don’t know if they are throwing out garbage, verbal or otherwise. Also, while a great section of South Asians are still very poor, the situation is improving – again at least in India and much of it owes to the globalized economy and contribution of the Indians in the US. The evidence I have is anecdotal but last time I went back, I noticed that household servants are presently living under much better conditions than they did 20 years ago – they have TV in their house, their children are going to school, some are even carrying mobile phones. Much more, no doubt, needs to be done. And people with good intention do help out – whether they have immigrated or stayed back. On a personal level, my friends and I have contributed to a scholarship fund in India that will buy textbooks for poor students needing medical books. I agree that not everyone is that willing to help. I have met many people of Indian origin with US citizenship/green card who just keep complaining about the situation back home without a desire to do anything constructive – but that malaise is not as widespread as you think.
Also maybe your mom did not help those guys, but my mother and mother-in-law and a group of other women have invested considerable energy in educating children of poor people in their area. So don’t go generalizing about a whole class of people in south asia.
I can’t read 122 comments, so I apologize if this has already been said.
Did any of you go to rallies or marches today in your cities, if they existed? I did, in NYC, starting in Washington Square Park. From what I could see there were only a handful of desis in that group. I mean like 6 total. Our group was penned in separately from the other groups, so I couldn’t check out the group that came from Chinatown or over the Brooklyn Bridge. Any other reports?
Immigration happens mostly with the immediate neighbours – that is the reality everywehre. So, your utopian examples of resettling the poor from Congo has no semblance of reality. Mexico is a much poorer country compared to united states. thats all that matters. all i am saying is that there is a much higher purpose to life – atleast in my view – beyond preserving what we have.
…and then you say
California is the fifth largest economy in the world – so you are not saying that it is really hurting california that much. are you?
so i’m confused. what are the purposes of life? i don’t grant that the size of an economy is a good proxy for a Good Society. above you seemed to imply we shouldn’t look to people just for what they can do for us, but that there are other values in life. and i agree.
as for your first assertion, is that true? nearly half of american immigrants are from asia. do most canadian immigrants come from the united states? what about the people from morocco in the netherlands, from turkey in germany and pakistan in norway? do i want millions of congolese in this country? no, not really. they aren’t my kind of people, though i am all for bleeding african nations dry of their professionals because i care about these people and i don’t think they’ll ever get a fair shake where they are. but, if you want the greatest happiness rate of change (positively) for the greatest number, you would look to where misery was maximal.
immigrants as % of US pop from 1820-2000.
“so i’m confused.”
my points are two fold. 1. we should what we can to others without hurting us badly – that is why i suggest we should be lenient to the illegals here. that is my value about the higher purpose of life and so on. 2.I pointed out that it is not hurting us badly by talking about how well the california is doing in terms of its economy.
are you suggesting half of the illegal immigrants in u.s are from Asia? I find it difficult to believe. I thought we are talking in the context of illegal immigration.
“but, if you want the greatest happiness rate of change (positively) for the greatest number, you would look to where misery was maximal.”
Do you do that in real life though? Do you help someone who seeks your help or you would find the most suffering person in the world and help him/her?
Nah… I leave the “misunderstood victim” blubbering to the Aztlan/MEChA/Raza whiners ..
there is a book called albion’s seed which describes the settlement of the ‘four folkways’ of anglo-saxon settlers in the american colonies before 1776. this book is influential in my thinking though i don’t buy into its thesis about the permenance of cultural-historical identity over centuries despite ethnic and social change. nevertheless, what struck me is the difference between the puritan emigration and the scotch-irish volkswanderung.
the puritans were derived from the calvinist middle class of east anglia. the ‘pilgrim fathers’ were a small sect who (i believe) called themselves the separatists, they weren’t the main stem of emigration. the settlers were screened by the colony, and none of the illiterate & indigent of east anglia and england as a whole were encouraged to emigrate. their capital was evaluated, their skills surveyed. those who couldn’t support or were social misfits were deported. a group of calvinist hereditary nobility considered emigrating to new england, but the puritan elders conferred and told them that their privileges were not going to transfer for the new world, and this convinced the nobles not to join their co-religionists. the point i’m trying to make is that colonial massachuttes was a peculiar self-selected society, it was over 90% literate for example, and their christianity was harsh but cerebral (church was often accompanied by scriptural commentary and free dialogue between men and women).
in contrast, the scotch-irish arrived from ulster and the english borderlands penniless (aside from ‘the ascendency’). they were a violent and rowdy breed who brought their own form of back-country calvinism to this nation which persists to this day. they are often the archetypical ‘trash’ and ‘rednecks’ who are the butt of jokes here. they are the backbone of the modern republican party and provide many of the white soldiers in the american army.
immigration policy matters. the choices we make today may echo down through centuries. we can’t opt out of fellow citizens. the snake-charming inbred hick in appalachia is an american, and i’m obligated by my vow of citizenship and fellow feeling to stand by him for better or worse. history is what it is, and we can’t rewind the tape. the scotch-irish are a hard working people, they cleared the back country and they went down into the coal mines. they provided many of our presidents and bled for this country on the fields of battle. but though i mean no disrespect fundamentally the puritan yankee is more “my kind of person,” a man of the book rather than the sword. i want more puritan yankees in this country, i want to reinforce my “own side” in the culture wars. i want to reach out to the IITs and beijing university, university of mexico city and the ladies on the campus in uppsala sweden (OK, never mind, i’m not single).
i made a reference to mexican peasants looking at a melting snowman and seeing the virgin mary earlier. i made that point for a reason, the mexicans who are emigrating to this country are the working class and the peasantry, not the sophisticated urbanites and intellectuals. they are the future snake charmers, and many of them are converting to evangelical charismatic christianity (see one nation under god by barry kosmin, 1994). instead of this i want more asian immigrants (who are the most likely to be secular, see here). plainly spoken, i want more pencil-necked urban intellectuals. and, i want us to take out the trash, take care of our own babies and mow our own lawns.
that is all. for now.
Do you do that in real life though? Do you help someone who seeks your help or you would find the most suffering person in the world and help him/her?
1) an individual is not a country, back to this in a moment
2) and yes, i have given money to charity (mostly medical) proactively (i don’t get called because my phone is unlisted) as opposed to panhandlers on the street who approach me.
3) people in third world nations that are riven by strife and violence have asked for help many times from what i can tell (i read it in the paper, i see it on TV, i hear it on the radio). do you want congolese to swim the atlantic? we turn a blind eye. see what happened in 1994 in rwanda, from what i recall the USA via madeline albright pressured the UN not to label it a genocide so we could not intervene with a clean conscious. i would argue that immediacy and visual input is the primary parameter which motivates compassion, and i think we need to move beyond this. or, at least i would find the arguments of compassionate people (of which i will freely admit i am not) more persuasive if i felt its utilitarian impact was a bit more decoupled from first order sensory attention. look at the marches. we knew there were millions, but now we see them we feel moved? well, actually i do, but so what?
and just to be clear, i don’t think mass low-skilled immigration will bring an apocolypse. it will turn the whole country into california, without the good weather. the highly skilled and the illegals will benefit monetarily while the middle class (lower and middle middle) will get squeezed. i don’t value economic efficiency and convenience above all else. there is a character building in cooking your own food, mowing your own lawn and being able to predict someone’s socioeconomic status to a high degree of accuracy from their skin color or surname.
[insert not] being able to predict
What is wrong with California, btw? The last I checked, the people are still moving to california.
“there is a character building in cooking your own food, mowing your own lawn and being able to predict someone’s socioeconomic status to a high degree of accuracy from their skin color or surname.”
well, this is exactly americans don’t want to do. so i doubt what is the character building with them?
and by the way, the moment you get to second generation, all these disappear. In California, atleast I don’t see any second generation mexican mowing the lawns.. anyways, i love daniel who maintains my backyard and viviana who looks after our baby so my wife and i could work – they are just wonderful people who work hard to earn a living and there is a place for them in the good old america.
What is wrong with California, btw? The last I checked, the people are still moving to california.
native born leaving california:
During the measured twelve-year span, immigrants and births to immigrants accounted for the net increase of 4.1 million people after allowing for deaths and those leaving the state. Native-born residents (those residing in the state prior to 1990) decreased by about 100,000 and this was not compensated for by other Americans moving to California.
california is great…if, you are a professional with a hefty income, young and single with low expenses, or an immigrant willing to live on the margins or in dense conditions. single families of modest means have a hard time making ends meet and owning a home.
and by the way, the moment you get to second generation, all these disappear. In California, atleast I don’t see any second generation mexican mowing the lawns
that takes time. if you have enormous inflows of immigration the first generation is always around.
“anus of the world“
wow, i thought that was at Lex/51st, going from the E to the 6 line. actually, pretty much a lot of china town..wait wait, it could have been bankok in the mid 70’s.. wait wait, anus u say, yeah, def. sandaga in dakar..wait, no, i was wrong..anus of the world u say, yeah, i got it, its in the minds of small minded people who have some sort of grudge against the world… and relief the distress by knocking on less fortunate..
chill dude, dhaka prolly no likey u either… uncle or no uncle
PS: it does smell bad, and i do believe the same smell can be had in most of the tropics, its called, the tropics…
ur right, statistics say they arent poor, so it must be true. how bout a vist to mexico proper, not cancun, or juarez.
seriosuly, get out more, smell the non-anal air in the US, talk to some real people.. no, no, better to stick to stats.
Yo dude:
Don’t hate on Chinatown, man. I’ll take your anus out.
i very specifically said an anus, not the anus. and yes, i’ve heard that about china too (from singaporeans).
My lawn won’t mow itself for $30.
“california is great…if, you are a professional with a hefty income, young and single with low expenses, or an immigrant willing to live on the margins or in dense conditions. single families of modest means have a hard time making ends meet and owning a home.”
Ok. you are refering to the cities of california. and if the home prices are too high, please don’t blame those who mow lawns – that isn’t fair. blame the same groups whom you prefer to have here – the IT professionals from India and China.
yes, but look closely at the numbers. those 12 million tend to move into a few states. it isn’t just absolute numbers, it’s density. anyway, it would be more sustainable if the individuals brought more social capital, but as it is many of the undocumented do not.
Just a couple of notes on this data:
1) the number you’re citing comes from a pew hispanic center study (click on Executive Summary). It lists the number of “unauthorized migrants” not undocumented people and defines the difference for you. It also says that “Some migrants in this estimate have legal authorization to live and work in the United States on a temporary basis. These include migrants with temporary protected status (TPS) and some migrants with unresolved asylum claims. Together they may account for as much as 10% of the estimate.” It also says 11.5 million to 12 million. So regardless of how many times you see the 12 million number repeated in the media, it’s actually a misrepresentation of the data.
2) This is just one method of estimating (it relies on comparing census estimates of population to DHS figures on immigration–I don’t find it all that compelling on the surface but the guy who did it’s been doing this stuff for a long time). A couple of Bear Stearns analysts used a different method and found 20 million people. Which is to say, no one’s really sure exactly how many undocumented people there are in the U.S. and people with different politics fixate on whichever number they think will help them generally.
There are many more interesting statistics on that page. Like this one: “By 2004, the annual inflow of foreign-born persons was down 24% from its all-time high in 2000.”
Funny how that never gets cited 😉
says u!
i beg to differ. a quick trip to jersey or jackson height will confirm for you not all who are clamering at the gates are “middle and lower middle classes“
and what does the example i provided have anythign to do with anything, first,its a real life example, not from an article, not statistics (we all know how to google and look at the world factbook), nor is it some report some expert did. it has to do with what i said earlier, we are our own worst enemy. the example detailed a mindset, even from someone who spends their day helping the people who the were ridiculing.
have u actually ever, or recently gone to rural india, seeing as tahts what u r talking about?
no, really? not just drive past, but actually go, and stay? because very many places havent change much in maybe 100 years… though they do have a tv set, and i know in b’desh Grameen provided mobile phones to rural folks.
she runs a free community centre that provides medical, shes a dr., education, and vocational training to out of wed mothers.
i am not generalising, i know what the hell i am talkign about because i’ve seen it first hand, and know of the people who do actually help, many, unfortuanately, and foreigners, or INGO’s, or missionaries. most of my lot dont do crap except bitch, and then they go abroad to study and never go back home.
some of the commenters are 15 years away from being those uncles, u know the ones, complaining about politics at home, the concrete ceiling for our promotions, how our culture has changed so much, and people these days arent the same, and ofcourse, my personal fav., bitching about the local deshi consulate and/or embassy, and how they dont care about the community, but they knew a 2nd secretary once, well, met him atleast at a party…
ya’ll just dont like it when u get told off for being,i know this is very prejudicial of me, deshinecks…
yo, BrownFist
look, it smells bad, but i would say its my 2nd most fav place in the city. there is an old couple who do chinese food off of a cart on weekends.. full meal for $3, and nothing can beat the noodle shops. my 2nd fav is one of the chinese bakeries..mmmm, lotus paste and bean cakes..
i want some now.. but it still smells bad…
I am OUTRAGED. In this whole immigration debate that you’ve collectively been so ready to swarm all over like a bunch of flies who have smelled something delish, you’ve maligned something that is sacred to many of us – the anus. How you could so lightly compare a place like Dhaka (yuck yuck yuck) to the beautious puckered perfection of the anus is beyond comprehsion. Razib, you make pretty pompous and presumtious claims about your hometown. Stop romanticizing everything. Next time, get your fact straight – look up Wiki or something – a horrible third world place with dirty brown people making a mess of everything could never be the anus – or even, as you take the time to point out – AN anus of the world. “AN” anus – psh. There can only be ONE anus.
if your head is in your anus you will smell anus wherever you go.
Razib – Oh, how I wish that all the measures you reccomend, i.e, the southern wall etc were in place when your parents immigrated to this blessed land. Also – dude, please read some Macro 101 or have someone explain it to yo before commenting on our deficit problem. Lesson # 1 – Foreigners will not be coming anytime soon to claim their monies. So you may sleep safe.
i stick by my assertion about Lex/51st going from the E to the 6 train uptown… i dont care how wondeful ani (i dont know the plural, ani seems funnee) are…
The House bill is ridiculous. But then, so is the other side. I hope that attempting to follow the law is valued above illegality.
holy crap (pun intended),
i was JUST now thinking that…
wha…??
I just cannot believe what I am reading!!!!!1 The pro-anus bias in this thread is just ridiculous and as unpopular as it may make me I can’t sit idly by any more. You know what, some of you people might think you were born in the anus of the world but I was BORN in an ACTUAL anus, so all you fakers can just take a hike. My father had to wait 15 – that’s right 15 years – after filing for his relatives to come to the small intestine and then we had to fight NUMEROUS southward movements and EVEN THEN we did it all legally! So all you people who think you’ve seen anus, maybe you should take a trip with me to my homeland and then you’ll see what smelly and shitty is all about! Assholes!!!