For weeks now I’ve been wanting to write a post about the massive rallies taking place around the country against specific proposals within the larger immigration reform debate. The protestors, the vast majority of whom have been Mexican-American and Mexican, want to make sure that the outcome of immigration reform does not resemble the bill that has currently passed the House of Representatives. Here are some of its most controversial provisions:
- Requires up to 700 miles (1100 km) of fence along the US-Mexican border at points with the highest number of immigrant deaths.
- All illegals before deported must pay a fine of $3,000 if they agree to leave voluntarily but do not adhere to the terms of their agreement. The grace period for voluntary departure is shortened to 60 days.
- All children born to illegal immigrants in the United States will become wards of the state.
- Housing of illegals will be considered a felony and subject to no less than 3 years in prison.
- Increases penalties for employing illegal aliens to $7,500 for first time offenses, $15,000 for second offenses, and $40,000 for all subsequent offenses.
Where do members of our larger community, South Asian Americans, stand on this issue? The fact that only a few groups representing South Asian American perspectives are voicing an opinion in this debate is indicative of the fact that there are cracks in our community. These divisions are becoming more apparent as we continue to integrate into the mainstream. An issue like immigration reform serves not only to reveal differences in opinion within our community but also provides an opportunity to learn from and to engage those in the community who have a life experience that differs from your own.
SAALT has been leading the charge against some of the proposed reforms (in solidarity with groups like La Raza and most recently the NAACP) while USINPAC has been completely silent on the issue (probably too busy worrying about India’s well-being and having their pictures taken with important people). Our larger community is likely to be divided on this issue along lines of citizenship status and socio-economic background. For example, an economically well-off South Asian American, born in the U.S., who’s parents came here legally, is much less likely to get involved then a South Asian American born here who’s parents arrived illegally, or one that is currently working here illegally. I believe however that this is a debate we should all voice an opinion on regardless of our status.
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p>Arguably the single most controversial provision in the House Bill is the one that makes it a felony to even provide aid or shelter to an illegal immigrant [aside: Polls show that your opinion on this issue depends on whether the person conducting a poll uses the term illegal alien, illegal immigrant, or undocumented worker]. For weeks now I have been combing the news in search of accounts of South Asians at these massive rallies. I haven’t had much luck. Over the weekend I was at a bachelor party in Las Vegas. During periods of “calm” we discussed immigration reform quite a bit. One of my buddies has worked to represent the interests of South Asian taxi drivers in NYC. I asked him why we haven’t heard more from this group. He wasn’t sure. A significant number of South Asian cabbies are illegal/undocumented and their participation/visible involvement in these rallies would surely add to the pressure on Congress. I would bet that there are a significant number of undocumented South Asians working in the hotel industry and at gas stations as well.
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Where we stand right now is that the House has passed its bill but the Senate’s more tame version got derailed by the right flank of the Republican party and by Democrats who were worried about last minute changes. The reason to voice your opinion on this issue now is because the final bill will be completed in a conference committee. That is when leaders in the House and Senate hash out differences and then send the final version to the President (see How a Bill Becomes a Law). Any pressure put on Congress leading up to that conference committee will affect it’s outcome.
Finally, to get to the point of this post. The biggest rallies will be held nation-wide on Monday. Members of our community need to take a stand and make our opinions known. This post (and the comments that will hopefully follow), is intended as a resource for that debate. I know where I stand on this issue. I am for a guest worker program. I am against making felons out of all illegal immigrants and those that support or give them aid. I am most emphatically against building a wall on our border with Mexico. I want to know where some of you stand so that members of our community can engage this debate armed with more knowledge. We can no longer just sit back and watch from the sidelines the important national issues that don’t solely affect us. Our larger community has been pigeon-holed right now as only being interested in a few selected issues. We need to voice our opinion on THIS issue, not just here on this website but with our multi-ethnic friends, co-workers, and Congressional representatives. If you can attend a rally tomorrow I suggest you do. Even if you don’t agree with everything the protestors are saying you will at least have more information to form an opinion with. That is not the only way to participate however. Just talk about this with someone at lunch or with friends or even with your parents. I just don’t want us to watch this debate silently while all the other immigrant communities affected by this make their voices heard. Our voices need to be heard as well.
The recent demonstrations by hundreds of thousands of immigration supporters appeared to have one distinct face: Latino. But members of Asian, African, Haitian and other ethnic groups say that is an illusion that they will dispel by pouring out in large numbers at huge rallies planned for tomorrow.Koreans said they will march in Philadelphia and Los Angeles, banging traditional protest drums. Chinese said they will parade out of Chinatowns in San Francisco, New York, Chicago and Philadelphia, led by marchers wearing colorful dragon costumes. Haitians said they will be heard in Miami and New York, and Africans said they will be among the tens of thousands who will gather at the Washington Monument.”
All of what is happening around immigration reform in the country is not a Latino-originated movement at all,” said Deepa Iyer, executive director of the South Asian American Leaders of Tomorrow, a national group based in Silver Spring. “There are also Asian and African groups working together. From where I stand, I feel that our community is greatly invested in the issue.”
Asian groups have become particularly concerned about immigration as the United States steps up its efforts to deport illegal Chinese and Korean immigrants. The Department of Homeland Security recently said that it is close to an agreement with China over the repatriation of about 39,000 Chinese immigrants. Korean activists said families have been torn apart when immigrant parents were deported while their American-born children remained in the United States. [Link]
See previous posts: Immigration smokescreen, Movement Without Immigration
oh, and we’ll always been geoist. i believe the quotas have always been WAY higher for western hemisphere immigration than for eastern hemisphere immigration.
Not hating. The existence of predominant biases do not condone the maintenance of status quo. Or, just cuz it’s always been broken, it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t fix it.
If “care for citizenship” can be measured in rate of naturalization- according to research by Paul Ong, Asian Indians have a naturalization rate of 26% for 6-10yrs in the US, 53% for 11-15 yrs, and 68% 16-20yrs. [From a book called Reframing the Immigration Debate published by UCLA]
If the immigration laws are constantly changing, doesn’t that inherently make it discriminatory?
Not hating. The existence of predominant biases do not condone the maintenance of status quo. Or, just cuz it’s always been broken, it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t fix it.
how many marchers can you move senor? 🙂
Is the post’s author sure he wants to rely on Wikipedia as a source?
This is the first time I’ve heard that the children of illegal aliens would become wards of the state, and I would have heard that before if it were true. Should you really trust Wikipedia entries?
The Georgia illegal aliens rally was organized by a former Mexican Consul General. ANSWER is involved in several of the upcoming illegal alien rallies. Are the readers of this site certain they want to march down that particular road?
BTW, this is the second time I’ve commented here; the first time someone said they’d visited my site and thought I sounded like Pat Buchanan. Actually, a comparison with this guy is more accurate.
Depends… does the crowd include pretty peurto rican girls prone to persuasion by alliteration?
life isn’t fair.
no kidding–that’s why around 500,000 people marched in Dallas today 🙂 And they’ll keep doing it unless someone subverts them (most likely by passing a bill).
i believe this is a nation of laws which emerged organically out of the culture of the anglo-saxon waves of settlement prior to 1776 (puritans, planters, scots-irish and middle colonials), subsequently reshaped, but fundamentally not remade, but later waves of immigrants (germans gave us beer, the irish gave us beer, the italians gave us wine, etc.).
Are you drinking? 😉 It’s funny how you left out how many of those emigrants came without permission and were allowed to vote nonetheless (sometimes even as noncitizens), the decimation of the original American Indian populations who probably have interesting thoughts about this debate, abnd the forced immigration of Black people as slaves–all of which were significant features in the building of the “nation of laws.” And I think Black people have contributed at least as much to American culture as any other group–from W.E.B. Dubois to Biggie. They certainly contributed to almost every single person commenting on this post being here; I would assume that the 1965 immigration laws that legalized Asian immigration and citizenship probably wouldn’t have passed outside the context of a broader civil rights movement.
Anyway, when the laws are f@#ked up, you change them. That’s the way things should work. Your head is lying to you razib 🙂
does the crowd include pretty peurto rican girls prone to persuasion by alliteration
they are born americanos, what do you they care? 🙂
Dude, in comment #31, really called this one: let’s get ready to ruummble!!
Yes. I entirely agree. My family came here as asylum seekers from Sri Lanka, realized how impossible that would be, so we went the family route… my citizenship-holding grandmother sponsored my mother and she sponsored the rest of us. Until that time we did any and every job that came our way, and lived well below the poverty line for about seven years. We paid taxes, got nothing in return, and my national merit scholarship was denied at first because I was a green-card holder, not a citizen.
Y’all remember Andrew Dice Clay? I can never forget seeing him on TV, about two months after we immigrated, joking about all the “shit-colored” people in the airport arrivals. He was the most popular comedian at the time, unless I’m mistaken. Wonderful to see that TV audience chuckle and chortle.
What the hell is “riff-raff”? If those other immigrants decide to eat a snack in the waiting room, or celebrate with a shot of vodka, how exactly does that make them inferior people, Razib? The INS process is utterly dehumanizing, and if you got through it by holding your nose above the rest as you waited (and waited, and waited and waited) in that cramped waiting room…well, to each his own, I guess. But you do realize you imply a Eurocentric yardstick? If perfect English and a stiff-upper lip are the best qualifications for citizenship, most Americans should have theirs revoked.
My favorite reading material on this issue is Alien Nation by Peter Brimelow. As a recent English immigrant himself, Brimelow takes it upon himself to tell Americans that they are good-hearted chumps, suckered by all this talk of “multiculturalism” and “plurality.” Correlations are ever so wittily passed off as causality (including that still-beloved saw about % of black men in jail) as he fears for his “blue eyed blonde” son’s future among the “brown hordes.”
And, lest you think he’s some gauche racist, he assures you that this is simply verifiable fact, for what is he if not an immigrant himself?! If HE twinkled into this country so easily…well!! So has everyone else, and, you know, Americans are jsut lucky that he’s the sort of guy who puts his self-interest aside to point out the flaws in the system. America’s problems are all traced back to 1965 immigration reform….cuz, that’s when this country went to hell right? With the riots and the hippies and stuff? In the good olde days when North Europeans were the only sort allowed in (3% of the country of origin and all that) America was fine!! Thriving!!
I see the logic in the argument that illegal immigration negatively affects the lowest economic brackets by creating artificial wage suppression. I like the idea of the guest-worker program, but see the possibily for so many loopholes that I need to read more about it before venturing a solid opinion. As for this bill… I’m just going to wait until some dirt-digging expose reveals the politicians who voted for it who have nannies and gardners and cleaning ladies with unpaid social security taxes…
It’s funny how you left out how many of those emigrants came without permission and were allowed to vote nonetheless
actually, the puritans (for example) deported the illiterate, the indigent, and discouraged the emigration of nobles. they vetted potential colonists and sampled out of the top half of the socioeconomic brackets of east anglia. and look how great massachusetts turned out! in contrast, the scotch-irish “crackers” were dirt poor and could barely afford their passage…and look how appalachia turned out. hm….
the decimation of the original American Indian populations who probably have interesting thoughts about this debate
that decimation was a force of nature (the original native population lacked HLA diversity against eurasian pathogens). the reason the settlement was easy was because they died off in large part before 95% of the settlers showed up. not that it makes it any more moral….
And I think Black people have contributed at least as much to American culture as any other group–from W.E.B. Dubois to Biggie.
perhaps we should show a little gratitude to black americans then and not contribute to the erosion of their working class with the wholesale importation of an industrious and lower wage competitor class? anyway, 49% of black americans opposed amnesty vs. 43% who favored it a few years back, so if you want to play the “black people like us” card, go ahead….
how exactly does that make them inferior people, Razib? The INS process is utterly dehumanizing, and if you got through it by holding your nose above the rest as you waited (and waited, and waited and waited) in that cramped waiting room…well, to each his own, I guess. But you do realize you imply a Eurocentric yardstick? If perfect English and a stiff-upper lip are the best qualifications for citizenship, most Americans should have theirs revoked.
hey cic, are you a mind reader. since when did i say “inferior”? anyway, yes, i like eurocentric yardsticks. i don’t deny it. this is a western country and i want it to stay that way. i can always move back to bangladesh if i miss old world diversity 🙂 if they deport me because i’m brown, that sucks, but i won’t starve in b-desh (though i’d have to learn to read that language i guess).
Not, of course, that smallpox blankets had anything to do with it.
Hello (57#),
I don’t think that It is a good idea to question the history of Americans (or Honkies), if you want to make a pitch for illegal immigrants.
Regards
Not, of course, that smallpox blankets had anything to do with it.
cic, that was quantitatively trivial. 1491 is a decent lit survey if a bit poppy.
I’ve never known you to be glib before now Razib. You are man of multifacted chromosomes, apparently.
I’ll remember your words next time I hear about the latest famine in Bangladesh. Damn..something must really be wrong with those people (genetic predisposition to early apoptosis?) if they’re droppin’ like flies and they even speak the language!
@41 razib and 44 kt,
these days, the way it works in academia is this: you get a h-1 very quickly without trouble (you do not fall in the 60k-odd quota). then the univ applies for your gc. also, and this is not just in academics, many times immigration lawyers do not recommend the ‘exceptional’ eb-1 category, presumably since there is more potential for mischief and unnecessary delays by the immigration officials (esp if you are from iran, etc.).
but while, like you both say, you can expect the gc to through without too much trouble if you are in academia, it is not necessarily faster.
i don’t know abt the national interest waiver, or what happens if your research is for homeland security. but then these days, every blue-sky research proposal from linguistics to biology to circuits claims to defend america against terrorists. don’t want to fund my large-deviation-analysis of markov-chain-monte-carlo-methods for volume-estimation? terrorists will come and get you. 🙂 you can replace the hyphenated phrases with your pet topics, and voila you have a new research proposal for the nsf.
citizenship by naturalization is no different if you are in academia.
I’ll remember your words next time I hear about the latest famine in Bangladesh. Damn..something must really be wrong with those people (genetic predisposition to early apoptosis?) if they’re droppin’ like flies and they even speak the language!
bangladesh hasn’t had a famine in a while. things aren’t that bad there, and people are having fewer kids and women are working in the garment factories (my relatives complain about not being able to get servants because of walmart). and yes, something is really wrong with those people from where i stand…but i a lot of them like that way. i’m eurocentric, but not a universalist in implementation.
re: 66, i forgot a disclaimer. i am no lawyer, so that post is just my perception. you should take it with a pinch of salt.
Well, that’s a relief. Cuz I generally like you Razib, and would hate to think that you didn’t realize that you don’t measure up in the eyes of the sort of people who generally wield eurocentric yardsticks.
and would hate to think that you didn’t realize that you don’t measure up in the eyes of the sort of people who generally wield eurocentric yardsticks.
well, we are using different definitions of “eurocentric” 🙂 the heart matters more than blood.
ah, but the blood’s easier to measure, isn’t it? Phenotypes and all that?
@53 taz, thanks. re: the statistics–i assume they mean 26% of those who have stayed 6-10 years are naturalized (or applied for it), 53% of those who have stayed 11-15 years and 68% of those who stayed 16-20 years, right?
if so, how many stay more than 10 years, more than 15 years, etc?
ok i’m too sleepy now.
perhaps we should show a little gratitude to black americans then and not contribute to the erosion of their working class with the wholesale importation of an industrious and lower wage competitor class? anyway, 49% of black americans opposed amnesty vs. 43% who favored it a few years back, so if you want to play the “black people like us” card, go ahead….
Razib, i actually was playing the “Black people and American Indians shouldn’t be written out of U.S. history” card. In any case, I agree that the immigrant rights movement should pay more respect to the needs and concerns of Black Americans…but that means working with them, not conceding your own welfare because some Black people are xenophobic. For example, instead of supporting the business-friendly bills in front of congress, one might support something that actually offered real labor protections–like an immediate amnesty, but any number of other things could substitute or are also needed. I’m not even going to address your point that the entirety of the destruction of American Indians was due to genetic inability to resist illness (though that was obviously a part of it). Just look up Manifest Destiny when you get a chance.
There are bills that would address both legalization as well as the visa backlog – in fact, the four principles that immigrant rights advocates have laid out for immigration reform (see the South Asian organizational statement that Abhi links to in his post) includes the eliminaton of the visa backlog. The bill that addresses this squarely is the McCain-Kennedy bill. The immigration reform package that advocates have been proposing is comprehensive and broad. Unfortunately, Congress has not really been listening. Hopefully, the April 10th rallies will make a difference
Immigrant rights advocate, I’m glad you like immigrant rights, but your analysis is off. First of all, there isn’t uniformity of opinion among advocates. Secondly, even the monolithic opinions that have been coming forth from “immigrant rights groups” have been shifting in response to the show of force by…actual immigrants–and rightly so. Thirdly, those demands are still not really in accord with what the few people I’ve talked to who are actually undocumented have asked for, or with groups that have more systemic analyses of aspects of the problem (for example, here’s more information from Immigrant Defense Project on what these bills would actually do in terms of deportation).
Finally, McCain-Kennedy was never plausible as it stood because it started out as a compromise and then proceeded to go downhill from there (some of its basic ideas are currently incorporated into the horrible comrpomise that the Senate was reported to have reached); anyone who supported it either didn’t understand the process by which bills become laws or was willing to sacrifice immigrants to get something, anything through Congress, regardless of whether the end result would be an improvement.
The provisions that “immigrant advocates” in DC were boosting–the guestworker program and the “earned legalization”–amount to making current undocumented people and future migrants wait for another 5-10-15 years before getting green card status, working in the meantime in a stiutation that makes their immigration status contingent on their employment, and in other ways basically makes them wholly controlled by the business entities that want them here, but want them controlled. That’s one of the reasons the Drum Major Policy Institute, Friends of Farmworkers, Chinese Staff and Workers Association, National Mobilization Against Sweatshops, and a whole bunch of other progressive peopple don’t support McCain-Kennedy and why many people with a lot to lose from further deterioration of workers rights (like working class citizens of all colors) are listening to xenophobes like Lou Dobbs instead of immigrant rights advocates.
!!! This is nuts!!!
though that was obviously a part of it
it was a preponderant part of it, direct genocide was mop up. most of the fertile areas of the west (eg., the willimate valley) “emptied” out before the 1840s when the large contingents of whites arrived. in fact, some regions were becoming reforested (the natives burned regularly to prune, you a shift in pollen type in the late 18th century as trees replace grass). as a contrast, look at the highlands of peru, the indigenous majority remains in part because spanish women had extremely high miscarriage rates at such elevations, and tropical diseases gained little traction and the population bounced back quickly enough.
this is not to deny the brutality of the invasion and conquest of the new world, but it seems plausible that ~90% of the native population died because of massive plagues which moved ahead of the main wave with itinerant traders and the various networks. such mortality rates shouldn’t surprise that much, the black plague killed 1/3 of europeans in a generation and this is a eurasian population that was heavily innoculated with tens of thousands of years of transcontinental pathogens. it has almost certainly happened before, with the neolithic revolution, and it is happening in the andaman islands now (though vaccination is mitigating the pathogenic assault somewhat).
in any case, this is OT and not really relevant to the rest of the thread, but the point is that the facts are what they are. you can draw whatever conclusions you want from them.
@mina, #74
why so? legally they are citizens, since anyone who is registered as born in the US is.
so, if the kids are not taken back by the parents the state has to look after them. if the kids do go back, they are just citizens who will come back when they are old enough. it is not as if people will come to the US illegally to deliver kids. it is easier to fake a birth certificate than to risk life and limb.
Kind of scared that I’m gonna sound like a crazy sociologist version of the mad scientist here but what do people think of the idea that the reluctance shown by educated (read: wealthier) immigrants to help out illegal (read: poor) immigrants not just in other communities, but within our own, might be a sign of colonisation-by-wealth?
All that really seems to be going on is that people have replaced race with wealth as the factor which determines whether someone is an inferior/superior person or not. Hence the reluctance (by some, not all) from other immigrant communities to help Mexicans and the Mexican-American community on this issue. I’m an Indian New Zealander and I’m not sure about Indian-Americans (most of my rellies live in the States) but over here the doctors would rather align themselves with mainly European doctors than with the poor shopkeeper, even if it means sometimes allowing racial discrimination to run riot among people who come here illegally but take up the good old fob jobs driving our taxis, serving our burgers and filling up petrol in our cars.
If all we have done with our post-colonial identity is learn to replace racial discrimination with wealth discrimination (and I know these two are so interlinked it sounds weird to separate them and I probably shouldn’t) – there shouldn’t just be white guilt but brown guilt too. In the past few years the Indian economy has boomed but its only the middle and upper classes like us who’ve benefitted, I know that’s a ‘duh’ point but just think its kind of sad that once the colonisation ended we’ve just internalised the ‘divide and conquer’ rule onto how we see ourselves and our view of other communities.
Yes, class issues have and will always be around. But it would be great if we could see the potential strength of a united immigrant voice, particularly in the post-September 11 age. Money and wealth might buy you half-acceptance into a wealthy, predominantly white world but all I know is no one’s gonna check anyone’s wallet before they do terrorist searches at airports.
Please everyone try to make it out to a rally today — weather looks good too, at least here in NYC.
Regarding the Senate bill, it’s important to note it now has been compromised to death — and that from day one it has included pretty much all of the really bad enforcement provisions that already are in Sensenbrenner’s bill. While people seem excited to get some comprehensive legislation through, I think that some progressive folks have forgotten that there will be a conference committee and negotiations with the House — and that Frist has sold the Senate down the river in that process many times before (most recently in the REAL ID Act). At this point, the issue in the Senate is all about procedure — and three cheers to Senator Reid for taking a stand.
No more compromising with ourselves! Let’s just get out of this process for this year doing as little damage as possible and then move on to the election.
Turbanhead, I understand the sentiment, but the “earned legalization” provisions in various reform proposal still involving a pretty long line (16 years would actually be in the ballpark for many) and many hoops before anyone can obtain permanent residence. That’s why it’s not correct to characterize these proposals as “amnesty.” Moreover, to point out once again, illegal immigration in this country is really a construct as much as anything else — an artifact of a policy that sets legal immigration too low to correspond to the economic and sociological realities of migration. Would you direct the same kind of resentment at people speeding at 55 MPH on an interstate that had the speed limit of 25 MPH?
Since there has been some comments on GreenCard – let me mention that due to retrogression, GCs for Indian and Chinese nationals are being delayed by 3-4 years right now. This is irrespective of whether you are in academia or industry – the fast-tracking involves only the initial steps in the application – the final adjustment of status is where the bottleneck is.
This just to get green cards – which you typically start applying for after 1-2 years on H1B visa. During this period, you face an extremely uncertain future, are bound to the company (and the regional location) you are working for and are restricted in your foreign travels (you have to go your home-country to get your H1B visa renewed every year after your initial 6-year limit is up). During this period you are paying taxes as well as Social Security and Medicare, of which you don’t see a single penny if your GC application is rejected for some reason. After the GC, it is a 6 year wait for citizenship. So that makes it ~ 11 years for most people, six of them spent rather uncertainly.
I may be selfish, but after going through so many hoops to come to the US, study and work here legally and then going through many more hoops (not to mention the monetary expenses for all the legal work) to obtain just a permanant residency, I am not too sympathetic to the ‘guest worker’ program for ‘illegals’. My primary beef is against all these protests – since lost in all the shouting, is the sorry situation of the legal immigrants. That said, I do not agree with much of the house bill provisions calling for pnitive actions and deportation of all illegals. More detailed discussion of my opinions here.
And of course, they’ll grow up to be the loyal, productive US citizens the Govt is so trying to create.
Just because some indians are illegal means we all have to rally for legalizing the status of people who voluntarily broke the law ? Sorry, but I am a first generation immigrant and I did it legally. Perhaps immigration criteria needs to be altered and thats a valid debate, but there is simply no excuse for rewarding grown men and women who willingly violate US law. Period. Just because he wears a turban or has a shade of brown skin does not make me his partner in crime. South Asians are wise to not rally for illegals…it makes us look incredibly ungrateful to a country that has benefited us incredibly and has treated us quite fairly (at least for the past 2 generations)
BongoP’o’ndit (comment #80) makes some good points. I myself have some friends and relatives in the U.S. who immigrated recently and are struggling with incredible Green Card delays (six years since the approval, in some cases).
But I would argue that the current conservative crusade against illegal immigrants also harms and endangers people who have legal status. Particularly we should be thinking of people who are in the U.S. legally, but who encounter difficulties along the way, or who make mistakes in the process and fall out of status. This isn’t just about a wall; it’s also about what happens at Customs at JFK, and about the attitudes of people in many branches of government and social service to all immigrants.
I think a part of our unique platform as Desis should be a focus on the abject bureaucratic failure that is the USCIS: all the ways that it makes people’s lives miserable.
naturally as Indians we are programmed to watch from the sidelines.
Amardeep has shown a very important point in the above. The general anti-immigrant climate affects everyone. The same way, in the South-Asian v/s Indian debate one of the central argument is that for a third party there is no difference between different SAs .. the same way a generally anti-immigrant (legal or illegal) climate would make life difficult for legals as for a “third party” often time there is no “difference”.
Kingsley wrote:
This is another KEY issue. There is no way for unskilled people to get to the US. So the talk of get in “line” is unfair. Geographic discrimination is at the CORE of american immigration policy. Thats what Desi Pioneers like Bhagat S. Thind tried via a supreme court case to get citizenship.
tashie, it must be the clean nz air or something, or perhaps the LOTResque scenescape, or maybe even th efunny funny accent, but i not only couldnt agree with you more, THANK god there are people out there who open their eyes long enough to see the incredible injustice we ourselves do to our own kin. people at home treat the vast majority of the citizenry far worse then the colonist ever did. the colonist came to steal, oppress, enjoy the fruits of our labours, and lord it over weaker, ununified communities… i cannot figure out why we have been doing it… worse kind of greed i guess…
Shiva, i almost choked when i read ur comment # 84, ur not from nz as well r u?
=)
Immigrants in US, including illegal ones, are hard working families with considerable effects on US as a whole (economy, jobs creation etc). Some of the jobs that illegal immigrants take on are jobs that Americans dont want to do. Had the immigrant population become a liability to the country then these drastic steps would probaly make sense. It is not the case. Thus, these hardworking, albeit illegal families, should not be considered criminals. Guest worker programs make sense to me.
I, however, dont think that these changes affect most South asians. Whatever points that have been highlighted here (like green card issues, legal status changes), that seem to affect legal residents have been there already. That is the reason many South asian org. are not proactively campaigning right now. It is has been on the agenda however.
Why don’t I do something radical here? Why don’t I suggest that we apply amnesty to EVERYONE involved? And that includes the construction worker who picks out cheap labor from the local corner, the home-owner who hires a gardener without asking for a green card, the couple that hires a maid. Reality check: Our economic system depends on low-wage jobs, under-the-table jobs, jobs that don’t meet federal guidelines for minimum wage and a W-2 at the end of the year. That’s the way it’s been for a long time now. And we’re in a Catch-22.
Consumers are used to to paying a certain amount for produce picked by immigrants without papers. We like having our lawns trimmed, our babies raised, our motel rooms cleaned, and our dishes washed by cheap illegal labor. If the goverment really were to suddenly crack down on illegal immigrants here now in this country, what would it mean? Higher grocery store prices, higher motel room rates, higher landscaping fees, higher fast-food costs, etc etc. Suddenly people may find they want to keep this illegal immigration problem that we ourselves have fostered and nurtured hidden. Why? Simply because we take advantage of the situation. The supply side is always there. And the demand side has always been, and will always be, there to fill the void.
If we’re going to offer “amnesty,” then that’s a sham. The going rate for amnesty that I heard offered was 2 grand (in American dollars). Yes, you learn English, polish up on some other American factoids, pay over $2,000, and kabing! There’s your amnesty. You are now permitteed to work here legally. Sounds like a good ploy to bring in some money. I wonder where 2 grand times millions and millions of illegal immigrants would go? To pay off the national debt? Into INS bureaucracy coffers? We could use the money to build The Great Wall of America to keep the invading hordes out. How many illegal immigrants could even come up with the two grand?
Here’s the long and short of it: illegal immigration has been a mainstay of the American economy for a very long time. In the L.A. area, industry could not continue without illegal labor. Americans would have to really suck it up with higher prices on many things overall if they really want to stop illegal immigration. I personally don’t think there are enough legal Americans in the country to meet the demand of what jobs we have right now, and there certainly aren’t enough legal immigrants to fill the demand of these jobs that go unnoticed and unmentioned. Just look at who is rebuilding parts of New Orleans right now. Illegal immigrants. From Alaska (where the canneries hire their share of Phillipino and Asian illegals) to New Orleans, from Greece to Germany, what economy isn’t dependent on some percentage of illegal cheap labor?
dude:
I’m in the US. Also I brodly agree with your comment. We Indians treat other Indians far worse than anyone else.
Shiva.
bt, isnt it funnee how people forget, or choose to ignore these facts. if u live in any LARGE city, u r going to be hard-pressed to get by, despite whta people think, without alabour force willing to work for minimal salaries/wages, doing the work others wont do for the price.
it amazes me that once people gte their gc or citizenship, how vocal they suddenly become about anti-undocumented workers.
if i have to pay straight wages, and keep proper books, as a construction company or restaurant or lawncare or walmart, i am going to pass that on to you, the consumer. lets see if those so vehemently against undocumented workers like paying higher prices.
wasnt this discussed somewhat in the minute men post?
The famous joke about two close Jewish friends who decide to convert to Christianity. The first one goes up to the priest, receives his baptism, and then just runs past his friend out of the church. The friend runs behind asking ‘Hey, what’s up with you?’. The reply? ‘I don’t want to talk to you Jews, you crucified our Lord!’
This is just human nature.
And the stuff about GC delays is not entirely accurate. Most of my friends with Master’s/PhDs have been getting GCs in 2 years or less after graduation, especially after the computerized systems.
All y’all are up this late for a wonky debate? It’s kind of hot isn’t it? Makes me think that the “Sepia Destiny” idea might help a lot of people 🙂
Oh my god you people are so deliciously insane. I can’t possibly read all this today. Bookmark! 🙂
Um, just from my cursory skimming let me note that I have white friends–some of whom sound American but aren’t—who have had incredible problems with their visa and immigration after getting onto tenure-track positions. These are crem-de-la-crem types who I am sure even picky Razib-da wouldd approve of.
To me one problem with the immigration situation, as I understand it, is that it is unnecessarily punitive and it so easy for someone trying to play by the rules to slip in between the cracks and get screwed by paperwork or a misunderstanding–and suddenly it’s a felony to give them water. That’s nuts.
@ #84 dude: So the kings/rulers of the country before the colonist were all benign democrats who did not “steal, oppress, enjoy the fruits of our labours, and lord it over weaker, ununified communities.” ? Not that I am condoning opression in any form or by anyone, just pointing out that an utopian classless, non-confrontational society has never been realised (things were better or worse under certain rulers).
I fail to see how the current illegal immigration debate is a class/race issue as described by #77 tashie and dude. Is anyone opressing the illegal immigrants from Mexico here ? If anything, many states in the US are trying to make life easier for them by having Spanish tranlators, signs in Spanish, bilingual education in schools etc. Their kids are receiving in-state tuition waivers. Yes, many of them work in inhumane conditions, but that is not what all the protests are about.
If you want to rant about oppression, you should mention Mexico and the other countries from where these people are coming from – what kind of wretched life did they lead there to risk so much and cross the border illegally ? There was also a mention of searches at the aiport – if Indian subcontinentals and Middle-eastern people start a protest tomorrow on profiling, how many Mexican do you think will come and show solidarity ? Just to make my point clear – I am not against immigration from any nation – I am also against the stupid house bill that penalizes all and sundry – but I am against supporting a group because of some perceived connection of oppression by a white majority. I will of course support them for their right to treated decently as human beings.
I also agree with Amardeep’s contention that some of the conservatives are against immigration of any kind. Unfortunately, most Americans are unaware or too lazy to find out about the differences in the two forms making it is easy for a politician to blurr the lines in their rhetoric.
@ #91 technophobicgeek: The GC problem is a relatively recent phenomenon. Retrogression started around Sept’05. Also, as I mentioned, the first two stages are relatively fast now (though still far from perfect). For the majority of Masters and PhD degree holders from China, India, Philipines and Mexico, the wait for filing adjustment of status is a 3 years wait at least. Even then, as for one person I know, it has taken 2+ years to get the card in his hand after the background check (and he is a PhD).
Asian group joining the protests..
One of those 500 ton cluster bombs cost $1 million a piece. Thats expensive!! on top of the expense of $800 toilet seat 🙂
Because probably you too are an immigrant.. How convinient ..
@#95: RC
To be technically correct, I am not an immigrant. I am in the US on a non-immigrant visa. I do, however, intend to get a permanant residency if possible. And therefore my support for immigration is convenient…err how exactly ?(I am sure no one at USBCIS is going – hey this guy suppports immigration, lets give him a GC – no sweat!)
Looks like this bit of news has been drowned out. Not surprising, as it doesn’t contribute to the pro-illegal immigrant lobbyists’ agendas.
“That’s the objective of the marches — to give the impression that all Latinos are for allowing the illegals to become citizens,” said Phoenix resident Lionel De La Rosa. “Well, I’m not.”
la raza traitors! :=)
93:BongoP’o’ndit,
? who said anythign about the there being an utopian society..um, i actually specifically said i dont get why we do our own kin worse than what the colonist did, so, before the colonists, there was us, and we were doing ourselves worse, and after the colonists, there was us again, still doing ourselves worse..
u might consider reading some of the above almost 100 posts where some have suggested rather bewilderingly taht only people with degrees ought to be allowed, or people who can somehow add to the economy, or who speak english, all pathetic imo. so class distinction has everything to do with migration as the admin also allows a lot more opportunity for people who are degree holders and have higher education.
seems like these are the people who least likely have to migrate to better there situation significantly as they can very well work and make a substantial living. its the very non-english speaking non-professional, ill-mannered, unsuffisticated, “riff-raff” that NEED to migrate to improve there lot.
i have grown up in the diplomatic corps a significant part of my life around various parts of the world, and in my own experice, its those very riff-raff that have the greatest amount of relatives back home depending on them, and those very ones that send the most remittance back.
a dr. coming to the US or UK workign as a dish washer is unnecessary. it take sout a pool of talent well needed at home, a non-professional who comes here and works even as a dish washer may make thge sort of income 100’s of times beyond what they could at home.
the attitude of immigrants once they have achieved there goal, or are going to pursure their goal, of getting residency, of superiority is just to funny. perhaps its best you migrate out of the country, one less neo-imperialist amongs the citizenry. also typical is well if things dont work out or they kick me out, i’ll just go back and make a living there, soryy mate, can have it both ways.
as i have mentiond befoe, not all of us are abcd’s, fops, or desh-residents, and not all of us aspire to the ultimate goal of gc’s. some of us come, study, work, and go somewhere else, to perhaps study some more, work, and then move on. or, we move back home, an dhelp the likes of BRAC and Grameen to better the lives of our own kin.
as for the US born peoples of deshi parentage, why should they feel anymore allegence to the s.asian crown then other americans. if they do,great, many do, if they dont, there perogative. i am highly critical of the lot that comes over, however that is, then tries to block the door,like george and the fire at the birthday party.
that should read crowd, not crown, and sp is not my interest here, so sorry about all the mis-sp’s