For weeks now I’ve been wanting to write a post about the massive rallies taking place around the country against specific proposals within the larger immigration reform debate. The protestors, the vast majority of whom have been Mexican-American and Mexican, want to make sure that the outcome of immigration reform does not resemble the bill that has currently passed the House of Representatives. Here are some of its most controversial provisions:
- Requires up to 700 miles (1100 km) of fence along the US-Mexican border at points with the highest number of immigrant deaths.
- All illegals before deported must pay a fine of $3,000 if they agree to leave voluntarily but do not adhere to the terms of their agreement. The grace period for voluntary departure is shortened to 60 days.
- All children born to illegal immigrants in the United States will become wards of the state.
- Housing of illegals will be considered a felony and subject to no less than 3 years in prison.
- Increases penalties for employing illegal aliens to $7,500 for first time offenses, $15,000 for second offenses, and $40,000 for all subsequent offenses.
Where do members of our larger community, South Asian Americans, stand on this issue? The fact that only a few groups representing South Asian American perspectives are voicing an opinion in this debate is indicative of the fact that there are cracks in our community. These divisions are becoming more apparent as we continue to integrate into the mainstream. An issue like immigration reform serves not only to reveal differences in opinion within our community but also provides an opportunity to learn from and to engage those in the community who have a life experience that differs from your own.
SAALT has been leading the charge against some of the proposed reforms (in solidarity with groups like La Raza and most recently the NAACP) while USINPAC has been completely silent on the issue (probably too busy worrying about India’s well-being and having their pictures taken with important people). Our larger community is likely to be divided on this issue along lines of citizenship status and socio-economic background. For example, an economically well-off South Asian American, born in the U.S., who’s parents came here legally, is much less likely to get involved then a South Asian American born here who’s parents arrived illegally, or one that is currently working here illegally. I believe however that this is a debate we should all voice an opinion on regardless of our status.
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p>Arguably the single most controversial provision in the House Bill is the one that makes it a felony to even provide aid or shelter to an illegal immigrant [aside: Polls show that your opinion on this issue depends on whether the person conducting a poll uses the term illegal alien, illegal immigrant, or undocumented worker]. For weeks now I have been combing the news in search of accounts of South Asians at these massive rallies. I haven’t had much luck. Over the weekend I was at a bachelor party in Las Vegas. During periods of “calm” we discussed immigration reform quite a bit. One of my buddies has worked to represent the interests of South Asian taxi drivers in NYC. I asked him why we haven’t heard more from this group. He wasn’t sure. A significant number of South Asian cabbies are illegal/undocumented and their participation/visible involvement in these rallies would surely add to the pressure on Congress. I would bet that there are a significant number of undocumented South Asians working in the hotel industry and at gas stations as well.
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Where we stand right now is that the House has passed its bill but the Senate’s more tame version got derailed by the right flank of the Republican party and by Democrats who were worried about last minute changes. The reason to voice your opinion on this issue now is because the final bill will be completed in a conference committee. That is when leaders in the House and Senate hash out differences and then send the final version to the President (see How a Bill Becomes a Law). Any pressure put on Congress leading up to that conference committee will affect it’s outcome.
Finally, to get to the point of this post. The biggest rallies will be held nation-wide on Monday. Members of our community need to take a stand and make our opinions known. This post (and the comments that will hopefully follow), is intended as a resource for that debate. I know where I stand on this issue. I am for a guest worker program. I am against making felons out of all illegal immigrants and those that support or give them aid. I am most emphatically against building a wall on our border with Mexico. I want to know where some of you stand so that members of our community can engage this debate armed with more knowledge. We can no longer just sit back and watch from the sidelines the important national issues that don’t solely affect us. Our larger community has been pigeon-holed right now as only being interested in a few selected issues. We need to voice our opinion on THIS issue, not just here on this website but with our multi-ethnic friends, co-workers, and Congressional representatives. If you can attend a rally tomorrow I suggest you do. Even if you don’t agree with everything the protestors are saying you will at least have more information to form an opinion with. That is not the only way to participate however. Just talk about this with someone at lunch or with friends or even with your parents. I just don’t want us to watch this debate silently while all the other immigrant communities affected by this make their voices heard. Our voices need to be heard as well.
The recent demonstrations by hundreds of thousands of immigration supporters appeared to have one distinct face: Latino. But members of Asian, African, Haitian and other ethnic groups say that is an illusion that they will dispel by pouring out in large numbers at huge rallies planned for tomorrow.Koreans said they will march in Philadelphia and Los Angeles, banging traditional protest drums. Chinese said they will parade out of Chinatowns in San Francisco, New York, Chicago and Philadelphia, led by marchers wearing colorful dragon costumes. Haitians said they will be heard in Miami and New York, and Africans said they will be among the tens of thousands who will gather at the Washington Monument.”
All of what is happening around immigration reform in the country is not a Latino-originated movement at all,” said Deepa Iyer, executive director of the South Asian American Leaders of Tomorrow, a national group based in Silver Spring. “There are also Asian and African groups working together. From where I stand, I feel that our community is greatly invested in the issue.”
Asian groups have become particularly concerned about immigration as the United States steps up its efforts to deport illegal Chinese and Korean immigrants. The Department of Homeland Security recently said that it is close to an agreement with China over the repatriation of about 39,000 Chinese immigrants. Korean activists said families have been torn apart when immigrant parents were deported while their American-born children remained in the United States. [Link]
See previous posts: Immigration smokescreen, Movement Without Immigration
Just want to point out that both the Senate bills and the House bill are terribly problematic and therefore the end result, if there is one, is likely to be really problematic as well (mostly by expanding grounds for deportation–including for green-card holders, not securing labor rights, and generally not providing for the welfare of immigrants in exchange for benefits for big business). If/when the Senate approves something, it will then go into conference committee with the House, at which point something like 10 old conservatives will make choices that affect tens of millions of people (documented and undocumented immigrants, their families–citizen or no, and everyone else).
That’s why it’s really important for people to show up in the streets today, tomorrow, and especially May 1–so something better than all that $hit gets passed. Otherwise, the 1.4 million deportations since ’96 might be just a drop in the bucket.
I don’t agree with the draconian measures of H.R.4437, but for those who came to this country illegaly and not because of ethnic/religious/political persecution, I say get in line buddy. If my father had to wait 16 – that’s right 16 years, after filing for his relatives to come to the US, then y’all can go through the same hoops. And yes, I think resident-aliens who want to become citizens should have stricter guidelines smiliar to (but exactly like) the German requirements.
What is the solution, Open Borders ??
i agree with the sentiments of turbanhead. i was born in a third world country, i don’t want to die in one.
quite a few south asian organizations have endorsed the public statement on immigration reform here.
Since those tests are aimed at filtering out extremists, I applaud and propose we also apply them to the Bible Belt.
Razeeb (#4),
That hurts. You really rub it in sometimes. You know desis living in desiland are not that bad. US took more than two centuries of independence (and a civil war)to reach where it is, cut some slack to us.
Manish (#6),
I don’t think you can apply immigration laws to citizens. In India, under no circumstance state can revoke citizenship of a born citizen.
Regards
Since those tests are aimed at filtering out extremists, I applaud and propose we also apply them to the Bible Belt.
a republic is not like a corporation, it is like islam, you come in but never go out. we can’t empty our trash, so we need to control the possibility of future clutter build ups. citizenship is a contract sealed for generations, not until families are expandable.
i was naturalized in 1998, and it was a joke, the korean immigrant who interviewed me about american history and checked to see if i could speak english was barely intelligible, and during the swearing in the mexican families were basically having a picnic (dam, the cilantro smelled good) while some of the older russian dudes in the back were whipping out flasks of vodka to celebrate before the ceremony was finished. before reforming the undocumented system someone should really look at the documented track…but hey, perhaps things have changed since the INS was folded into the homeland security dept. 🙂
I agree with razib and turbanhead, but turbanhead:
I don’t know whether to laugh my ass off about how the question was phrased or stand in awe at Germany’s progress.
While I’m against illegal immigration, I am also against all the provisions in the immigration reform bill. I know I wouldn’t be here if my parent’s didn’t make it out here legally…but isn’t there a better way to deal with illegal immigrant than these ridiculous provisions.
Does it still take 16 years for a foreigner to legally come to America? Surely reducing the lag time would partially help against illegal immigration.
That hurts. You really rub it in sometimes. You know desis living in desiland are not that bad. US took more than two centuries of independence (and a civil war)to reach where it is, cut some slack to us.
it wasn’t meant in a mean spirit. i apologize if it was taken as such. according to divya’s posts india is close to paradise, you keep yours and i’ll keep mine 🙂
though seriously, i went to bangladesh 2 years ago after a long absence. there is something distinctly insiduous about being a prince among peons, better a pauper among peers (this actually goes against the grain of some behavorial economics, call me a freak). the quality of life that most of us enjoy here in the west is contingent upon the social capital built up over centuries of history. our nation is more than a contract put in place to arbitrate capitalist transctions between consenting adults, it is a cult of constitution.
in any case, look, as i like to say whenever people tear hair out over israel-palestine, 2.5 million people have died, been displaced or turned into refugees in the dem. republic of congo over the past 10 years. i think even i would have a somewhat hard time rejecting people who have walked through hell and lived to tell us about it, let them be our servile worker caste, the lawns need mowing and the dishes need washing, better than running from cannibalistic rebels. if you truly want the world’s unwanted and huddled masses why open your hearts to those strong enough to run?
South Asians here ARE organizing – just got back from an amazing Town Hall meeting, more to come on that soon… South Asian Network will be holding a candle lit vigil at 6pm at the corner of Broadway and I think Cesar Chavez, as well as thousands of other immigrant community.
Can’t find a rally? Go HERE – it has a list and a petition of rallies going on in your neighborhood.
From what I gathered, the bill is going through many revisions in the Senate side of the committee. I think we have two weeks for the bill to go through Senate. I do believe that a comprehensive immigration reform bill is needed, but I don’t feel the options that are being given are the right solutions.
Does it still take 16 years for a foreigner to legally come to America? Surely reducing the lag time would partially help against illegal immigration.
Yes, and no. People forget they are dozens of ways to come to USA. Some of them are very fast – Athletes are made US citizens over-night before Olympic trials. Professors and medical professionals from overseas are brought on with all the paper work done on fast track. A tenured professor appointment can get a green card in less than 6 months. Not to talk about VonBraun and Alabama Rocket scientists, some of the top notch nuclear scientists from USSR were immigrated to US immediately after the iron curtain fell in ’89 lest they disappear.
Asylum, marriage – all have different rules. If you bring in a business to US and/ or million dollars to US – you can walk in with whatever immigration status you want.
Turbanhead is talking about immigration through relative – that does take a long time.
Even most of the visitors on SM are second genners – do visit USCIS website sometimes.
I think South Asian should actively engage in Immigration debate right now.
We got my grandpa’s visa in the mail about 2 months after he died. What needs to be reformed is not people’s attitudes toward coming here, but the immigration system itself: the paperwork needs to be processed faster (not to mention the fact that they need to check on the “living/dead” status of the people they’re processing). I know nothing about the process, but it obviously needs to be changed. Where’s the bill for that?
Just a heads’ up that the “someone else” has some intersting blogposts on this:
Census crunching, the LA March and noting the school walkouts.
Like anti-war activism, I think it would be helpful to have some good, cohestive proposals on what kind of immigration regulation we do want. Otherwise I get lost after a while.
Razeeb (12#)
My earlier remark was meant in jest. India is not a paradise, Indians like me are trying to make best of what we got from previous generation(not all of which was bad).
Back to the immigration topic (in USA)
From what little I have read, there are two issues.
1) Whether the laws admitting immigration are just or not. 2) What should be done with alien who violate the immigration laws.
So far what I have seen is the emphasis is on 2nd, what about the first?
IMO the immigration should be allowed, if the benefit from immigration outweight the social cost plus economic cost.
I don’t think there is anything inhumane with fencing the border, only I am not sure (from example of India)that it works. Also in case there is a violation some slack can be cut depending on the conduct.
Regards
Sonia and others regarding the visa backlog issue – actually, the immigration proposals that advocates have been pushing include a provision that would eliminate the visa backlog. Currently, in the US, there are between 3 and 6 million visa applications that are stuck in the system.
There are bills that would address both legalization as well as the visa backlog – in fact, the four principles that immigrant rights advocates have laid out for immigration reform (see the South Asian organizational statement that Abhi links to in his post) includes the eliminaton of the visa backlog. The bill that addresses this squarely is the McCain-Kennedy bill. The immigration reform package that advocates have been proposing is comprehensive and broad. Unfortunately, Congress has not really been listening. Hopefully, the April 10th rallies will make a difference
I think it would be helpful to have some good, cohestive proposals on what kind of immigration regulation we do want.
i don’t know about we, but i know about me 🙂
1) reduce numbers allowed in so that population can have a chance to stabilize (operationally, these means the population of california, new york, illinois and texas). say 200,000.
2) remove national quotas and ‘diversity’ lotteries. i have relatives who came because of ‘diversity,’ and trust me, there’s a lot of loserish diversity you don’t want!
3) prioritize those with money and education. let’s suck out all the intellectual and monetary capital out of the rest of the world, this country is floating on a sea of debt and we need all the capable soldiers we can get our hands on when the foreigners call in their loans! and if we can get the plutocrats to move here, hell, they have an incentive in not letting this country go argentina.
4) fuck families. discourage the transplantation of villages via chain migration, select for cosmopolitan mavericks who have roarkian fantasies 🙂
5) build a high ass wall on the southern border. if we have to do it out of fairness, build a wall up north to keep the damn canadians out too! (no offense)
6) penalize the shit out of businesses who hire people without papers. sure, some people have nice ass papers, but set up a system to confirm the reality of SS numbers.
7) abolish birthright citizenship.
Stronger border controls is necessary for any reform to be effective. Government processing guest workers will allow the speeding train that is migrant labor to switch tracks from the illegal to legal avenues. But it will slow it down, unless the govt. devotes enough resources for processing migrants. If it slows down, you will still have border jumpers, and ultimately it undermines the reform. In today’s global economy, we need these folks as much as they need us. However, one also needs to build incentive for someone to come here legally vs illegally.
Also, more resources are needed at the border to nail drug runners and smugglers who will still use the vast desert stretches to get their goods in. I don’t think a wall has ever stopped anyone, but we need more resources. More agents on patrols and more technology giving us an edge.
Desi cabbies who are illegal probably just want to stay under the radar. Elements of the right and left in this country has primarily turned this into a latino issue. I gotta say though, groups that raised Mexican flags on flag poles, or ones that use signs that specifically call ‘European Americans’ land stealers from Native Americans aren’t helping their causes. You want to sell America that you belong here? Nothing catches the imagination better than masses waving the American flag (which has happened).
For any effective immigration bill to work, all sides need to de-couple this from the racial lines (as hard it is). Far too many people on the right are worried about illegals affecting their ‘lives’ and ‘culture’. Too late, look around. American culture has been changed and for the better. Similarly, folks who espouse to turn the former Mexican territories into Mexico again aren’t welcome either. Lawmakers who get hung up on ‘Amnesty’ aren’t being realistic.
Fundamentally, I’m not happy giving folks who broke the law knowing all the consequences that goes along with it a free pass. But one has to be realisitc. 11-20 million people can’t be deported and sorting through who came here when is a mess the govt. is not equipped to handle and deal with. Sealing borders, opening up the guest worker program, and letting folks who are here already stay (executing it concurrently) is the only logical option. Doing one and not doing the others will undermine any real reform.
the April 10th rallies will make a difference
yeah might, who knows? but they’ll scare the crap out of the trash we can’t export.
In today’s global economy, we need these folks as much as they need us
we need programmers & scientists. some economic efficiency and vibrancy will be lost with more expensive produce, unkempt lawns and closure of marginal restaurants, but not much.
ar too many people on the right are worried about illegals affecting their ‘lives’ and ‘culture’. Too late, look around. American culture has been changed and for the better.
telemundo? 🙂
Abhi – honest post, and good points. I’ll be in the streets tomorrow for a lot of reasons.
GujuDude (20 #)
I agree, what were they thinking ?
Regards
Damn Razib, throws everything about what we know to be a citizen on it’s side. (is that how that saying goes?) Citizens as a commodity to increase the productivity of the US, and if you are not productive you are out? The new citizen definition? citizen not connected to a nation state…going back to pre-french revolution…
I agree with Saheli, these reform debates can get confusing, I wish someone would give me a decent proposed policy instead of telling me why all these reforms are wrong.
I LIED – the vigil tomorrow in LA is at 5 pm, not 6pm! Sorry!
Razeeb (19#)
StarShip Troopers anyone ? Are you a Robert Heinlein fan ??
Regards
Girls on telemundo’s soaps are hot. Not that I watch em, I’ve merely flipped through them at times. Yea.
Razib, can you explain what you mean by this a little better? Can this really be as cold and condescending as it sounds?
?) Citizens as a commodity to increase the productivity of the US, and if you are not productive you are out?
interesting you say that…all the pro-documentation people i’ve heard talk on the radio always add a large (preponderant) dollop of economic talking points straight out of CATO!!! no, the measures i propose might reduce economic growth some, but increase the quality of life for those i care about and myself (i live in a state with controlled growth boundaries and such). the point is we can’t export the economically unproductive or the socially unpalatable. i’m not a big fan of crackers dancing with snakes, but do we want to add mexican peasants who see the virgin mary in the face of a melting snowman to the docket of the fellow american loons? we have a moral obligation to them once they are citizens because they are our fellow citizens. but, i am not a universalist, i don’t want the tired and huddled masses of the rest of the world, i want the best and the brightest. but, if you are going to make the humanitarian case, then there are many causes out there. light a candle for the children of the congo, not the undocumented nicaraguan dishwasher, is his life dearer because he is nearer? yes, perhaps…but then you lose me with the humanitarian stuff, i care far more about the near as well.
Are you a Robert Heinlein fan ??
not too much. more asimov myself.
yup, u couldnt have said it better. and might i be bold enough to add, rather self-interested and rather selfish issues at that. this is going to be a very long and hard fought, yes, fought, thread.
as some have already indicated to basically credify abhi’s statement above, it seems to me, that people who are “in” want to keep the others out, regardless of whether they arrived here as legal or not. people i know who came as students, stayed as illegals, doing work outside of their original brief,then managed to get themselves legal again, have been the most ardent supporters of keeping the new lot out. people whose livelihoods are very unlikely to be challenged by newcomers in any way, still, very vocal against the “riff-raff”, their words, not mine, coming in these days.
the argument that “well, i did it legally, so must you” is a load of, sorry, but crap. let me be clear here, i live in the US, legally, went to school and work legally, but by no means am i a gc holder or citizen. when my tenure here is done, i’m packing up and moving on to the next country. i have not been adversely affected by immigraton reforms thus far, and i wont be by this one either. but to hear the ones who got in say no to others when so many people with newly started lives in our communities did it illegally,makes my blood boil.
shear hypocrisy. these latest reforms are knee-jerk reactions, and this too will pass after they have calmed down the latest xenophobia against the for-ge-nars, specially ones who are brown, because i doubt they will seriously deport a bunch of brits and germans and spaniards or italians for overstaying their visas, it will be us brown lot.
gc status or citizenship is no protection either. they can haul ur ass off when and as they want, and all they have to do is retrolegislate that all legal immigration from country x (read bangladesh or nigeria..etc) is null and void, and then u too will wish someone stood up and voiced support.
once again, another good post a., lets see the comments roll…
Razib, Every good analysis (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/08/60minutes/main1108476.shtml) I have seen on the immigration issue thinks this is a bad idea. In addtion to being a massive waste of tax payer money it isn’t likely to stop the flow of immigrants one bit. What it will do is set up a racist and dehumanizing system like at the check points in the West Bank.
From the CBS story: [Fortified fences like the one in Nogales, Arizona, protect only about five percent of the U.S.-Mexican border.
Bonner thinks that the number of illegal migrants has actually gone up since the barrier went up. Does he think the millions spent on the fence were a waste of money?
“I think thatÂ’s a fair assessment,” says Bonner.
The U.S. government has spent about $20 billion on border control over the past 12 years. But Republican Congressman Tom Tancredo insists that is just not enough.
“If you only put the fence for this five miles of border, people will go around it, naturally. You have to secure your borders!” says Rep. Tancredo.
He recommends sealing off the entire border, building fences. How much more should the government spend?
“Whatever it takes,” Tancredo says. “Billions more. Billions more. Ed, why not? It is our job. It is what the federal government should be doing!”]
I wish someone would give me a decent proposed policy instead of telling me why all these reforms are wrong.
I think McCain-Kennedy proposal is pretty decent. It seems most realistic.
On longer view, US does need a special immigration policy for scientists and engineers (even more robust than the existing one) to keep them competitive, on same war footing as space race days. China is catching up big time – I think what they (Chinese) seriously lack is a creative climate for innovation but still………
Nevermind Razib, I had my last comment sitting there too long before posting. Unless you were being tounge-in-cheek, your post in #19 confirms it.
Razib, can you explain what you mean by this a little better? Can this really be as cold and condescending as it sounds?
cold yes, condescending, perhaps.
my point is simple, i hear two primary refrains about undocumented
1) we need them economically
2) it is a humanitarian issue that they live on the margins
now, as some have noted, a large % (perhaps the majority) of the undocumented are from mexico. this is a nation with a per capita GDP of $10,000. india has a per capita GDP of $3,400, and bangladesh a little less than $2,000. i think if you do the utilitarian calculus that citizens from the latter two nations would accrue more aggregate happiness from being inducted into the menial guest worker caste than mexicans, who come from a middle income nation. but, i think the best argument is to bring over africans from war torn nations, since they would accrue the greatest utilitarian good.
but actually…though i do have some humanitarian sentiments, i’m sitting here eating an orange (a good one at that) and typing on a computer and baiting people on a community weblog at 11:25 PM rather than doing something to help the people of the world. so yeah, i guess i am kind of cold-hearted. now, if any of you threaten my cat, i’m up off my ass in at a moment’s notice. be warned, you know what motivates me!
Abhi (32#)
Isn’t comparision of US-Mexican border with Israel- Palestinian border a little overstretched. However you do have a point when you say that it can not be implemented in practice.
Kush (33#)
I seriously doubt that China will be able to catch up with US anytime soon. Can India do this, I wish.
Regards
It’s a difficult question really. On one hand, immigration has been the formula for the USA’s success for centuries. On the other hand, the problems associated with illegal immigration are real as well. The usual solution offered is to say that only the worse off (political asylum seekers, refugees etc.) and the best off (doctors, informaticiens, etc.) should be let in. What about the rest of the world? Don’t they have a right to choice as well? If we just pull back from this debate and get an overview of the subject: the earth and all it’s natural beauty were carved up by man a few winks ago (in terms of mankind’s total history) and called countries, and all those within those lines at that point of time were made prisoners within those lines. Who gives us the right to decide where man can set foot and where he cannot? I look forward to a world where the tyranny and arbitrariness of visas is a thing of the past.
On longer view, US does need a special immigration policy for scientists and engineers (even more robust than the existing one) to keep them competitive, on same war footing as space race days. China is catching up big time – I think what they (Chinese) seriously lack is a creative climate for innovation but still………
amen! hold the trash, but pile up the good recyclables.
two questions— 1. how many indians would you expect are illegally in the US? does anyone have a ballpark? i know, for example, that the number of chinese in the US illegally is high, and it seems to be common knowledge in the chinese community. from what i gather, there are even standard rates for smuggling people here from china, an entire support structure—places you can stay once you are here as well as jobs you can do.
@14, kush re: tenured professors—it takes on an average 7+ years after a phd to become tenured :). so unless you are an imminent gold medal winning olympic athlete, it does take 15+ years to become a citizen.
india is the best! let’s apply some eastern wisdom.
abhi, i’m skeptical about the skepticism about the wall, but perhaps you know something i don’t. we won’t know that it fails until we try. as it is, i think you are on the side of history. our population will balloon to 500 million and we will shift toward a corporatist state.
re: tenured professors—it takes on an average 7+ years after a phd to become tenured :). so unless you are an imminent gold medal winning olympic athlete, it does take 15+ years to become a citizen.
don’t people get sponsored immediately when they get a tenure track spot?
I look forward to a world where the tyranny and arbitrariness of visas is a thing of the past.
i’ll see you in the gated community then brother.
taz and saheli,
there isn’t a comprehensive proposal out there for a variety of reasons (most notably because a bunch of immigration policy f@#ks in dc decided to make a compromise with mccain knowing that it would lead to something worse without even trying to mobilize to shift the debate–largely because they’re so disconnected). It’s probably the case that for Congress to pass nothing right now would be better than to pass anything they have on the table (although you might want to look at Sheila Jackon Lee’s bill).
However, there are elements of different proposals that are coming together; we may just have to wait for the movement to put itself in a position of enough strength to get these things through (which is why it’s SO important for people to show up in the streets)–because it not only has to fight back against the Senate and House bills right now, but it has to do what you’re suggesting too. Here’s a sampling of ideas from different groups (i’m sure there are others):
break the chains (chinese staff and workers association, nmass, aaldef, about a dozen other groups) want a repeal of employer sanctions. so this is coming from a place of wanting stronger worker rights protections. nmass has also supported (and maybe break the chains as a whole?) a “rolling registry” which would basically eliminate these periodic discussions about how to deal with the “broken” immigration system and instead create a system where people who have been in the country for several years would automatically be eligible for greencards. i’ve heard other people advocate this idea.
people i talked to in the one demonstration I went to wanted green cards immediately (one lady was charitable enoguh to say that immediately would be impractical, so three months from now would be okay 🙂 That’s also the demand of the May 1st action I linked above (which is being pushed by the people who organized the LA demonstration). No one I spoke to supported a guestworker program that would lead to green cards 5-10-15 years down the road.
i think the families for freedom / immigrant defense project line has been to repeal the provisions in the 1996 laws that further criminalize immigarnts.
there are others with different demands to advocate for immigrants.
So it seems that no one (or collectively, everyone) has put the full package together yet, but there are a number of separate proposals that could ideally get combined into an immigrant rights package. generally speaking, there’s been a fair amount of criticism of the bills on the lack of worker rights protections (from immigrant communities in action, break the chains, drum major institute, friends of farmworkers, afl-cio, etc.) that i see at the core of a lot of the opposition. aside from the employer sanctions thing (which i still don’t fully understand how it would actually protect he rights of migrant workers though i can understand the argument about how it historically led to the deterioration of rights), i haven’t heard many strong proactive arguments for the worker rights protections.
So this is an inchoate progressive agenda–it’s not something that everyone who supports immigrants going to agree on all aspects of. The point is that these kinds of ideas assembled together should be the leftmost pole of the immigration debate, not a sellout bill that allows big business to exploit the f@#k out of immigrant workers with the stamp of approval from immigrant rights organizations.
it takes on an average 7+ years after a phd to become tenured 🙂
byteword,
Yes, I know and that too if one gets a tenured position immediately.
However, I have seen many cases where a fresh academic appointment/ offer from oversees is made to someone, and the EB-1 (Extra Ordinary Category – 1) / NIW (National Interest waiver) combo used to fast track the whole thing, the green card part.
I just wanted to say there are ways of moving fast, if there are parties backing you up (just prove that your research helps homeland security). I used some of the combos – and therefore, I am up on terminology and even then things can be really slow, unless you are headed for olympic medal (as you said).
You are totally correct- no figures cuz no one likes to fund SAA research (ahem) but word on the voting right front is that since SAA have a low rate of assimilation (i.e. getting citizenship) it is harder to fight for their voting rights. So part one of that is getting them to become citizens.
Razib, in your perfect world, how would you define US citizen and who would be excluded?
Personally, with the immigration debate- I’m conflicted with the words of illegal immigrants- it seems that the history of exclusionary immigration practice – it all just seems unfair. It’s late, and too late for me to be articulate on this- but if we didn’t get the right to be naturalized until 1956 in the US, didn’t that make us some version of an illegal immigrant for all those years before that?
Just read that the amount of international students coming to study in the US has decreased (in relation to importing educated immigrants)…
(All y’all are up this late for a wonky debate?)
It’s kind of hot isn’t it? Makes me think that the “Sepia Destiny” idea might help a lot of people 🙂
Just read that the amount of international students coming to study in the US has decreased (in relation to importing educated immigrants)…
Yes, That is a fall out of post 9/11 visa crack-down but it is picking again. Lovely senator, Barbara Boxer wanted a moratorium of 6 months on international students immediately after 9/11.
If you read Science, the US administration is getting really nervous about it. In fact, there is talk of federal graduate fellowships for international students (outside of Fulbright) for the first time.
Taz, it’s not discriminatory if it applies to everyone. I do think the current immigration law is broken. If there really is a need for cheap foreign labor, create a cheap foreign labor visa and let anyone apply for it. Sneaking it in as amnesty for illigals, smacks of geographic discrimination at the very least and xenophobia at worst.
Razib, in your perfect world, how would you define US citizen and who would be excluded?
someone naturalized, or someone born to a US citizen. i’d exclude everyone else. if you mean who i’d exclude from the immigrant pool, i would bias it against people without college educations and with a poor grasp of english. but there are exceptions to every rule, i am fine with some slots for exceptional people who are only secondary school educated.
yes, the system is unfair. in fact, i do in my heart cheer for illegals who are making a good go of it, i’m human. but in my head i believe this is a nation of laws which emerged organically out of the culture of the anglo-saxon waves of settlement prior to 1776 (puritans, planters, scots-irish and middle colonials), subsequently reshaped, but fundamentally not remade, but later waves of immigrants (germans gave us beer, the irish gave us beer, the italians gave us wine, etc.).
Sneaking it in as amnesty for illigals, smacks of geographic discrimination at the very least and xenophobia at worst.
life isn’t fair. don’t hate on the latinos for having the good fortune of being placed south of el norte 🙂