Earlier Abhi posted about the booming hair trade at the main Venkateshwara temple in Tirupati. It turns out that the sale of devotees’ hair is only one of this massive temple’s revenue streams, which dwarf those of American megachurches. Other revenue streams include cash, gold and diamond donations, laddoo sales and e-hundi.
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Tirupati |
E-hundi? Yes, electronic donations. You can donate to the temple right from ATMs owned by Andhra Bank and State Bank of India. The lords work in mysterious ways, but especially at withdrawal time:
“Andhra Bank ATM cardholders can make payments into the `hundi’ of Lord Venkateswara of Tirumala, from any of the bank’s ATMs. All they have to do is insert their card, enter the amount to be credited to the hundi account and it would be done instantly. In future, the facility would be extended to make payments for railway reservations and other services…” [Link]Tirupati is also the most visited temple in the world. It is estimated that more that 50,000 people visit the temple everyday; this makes it almost 19 million people in a year, almost double the estimated number of people visiting Vatican City… Tirupati is the second richest religious institution after the Vatican City… it usually takes anywhere from 2 to 40 hours, depending on the season, to get to the Sanctom sanctorum from the time one registers into the queue system. [Link – thanks, tef]
The temple staff alone amounts to a number of 18,000. [Link]
Hundi collections (cash donation by devotees) account for roughly one-third of the Tirupati trust’s income. It also earns substantial money from the sale of human hair (offered by devotees) and laddoos, apart from interest on bank deposits. [Link]
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p>For added convenience, you can book religious pilgrimages at State Bank branches worldwide. Separation of temple and state, what?
The bank is in tie-up with the Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanams management on a package to get the various `sevas’ in Tirumala temple and cottages booked at any of the bank’s branches in the world. ‘ `e-hundi’ is also part of the software, wherein a devotee can drop his offerings either in an ATM in the country or at the 52 overseas offices in 33 countries. [Link]The bank was nationalised in 1955 with the Reserve Bank of India having a 60% stake. [Link]
Cash donations are the main source of income:
An anonymous devotee has offered a $1 million note at the Tirupati temple in Andhra Pradesh, creating a sensation in India’s richest shrine… The temple staff noticed the note… while counting the daily collections in the ‘hundi’, or cash box… They said Andhra Bank officials had confirmed that it was a genuine note. If that is so, it is expected to fetch Rs. 50 million for the temple, which earns a whopping Rs. 5 billion [$116M, ~$300M PPP-adjusted] annually through daily offerings. [Link]
The wealthy and famous give diamonds and gold:
Earlier this year, Bollywood superstar Amitabh Bachchan offered diamond ornaments worth Rs. 100 million [$2.3M, ~$6M PPP-adjusted] to the deity after his recovery from illness. Believed to have been constructed in 1570 AD, the temple earns Rs. 5 billion annually through daily offerings by devotees and funds a university besides other institutions. [Link]
“India’s richest hill temple has been netting annually an average of about 700 kg of gold offerings through its ‘hundi…'” My lord, that’s a lot of money… the annual donations in gold alone is about $82.76 million. [Link]
As a rough guess, the temple seems to be pulling in around $250M-$300M/year ($750M PPP-adjusted). By comparison, America’s wealthiest megachurch (World Changers in Atlanta) makes ‘only’ around $80M a year. Even the evangelist’s name is Dollar:
Young couples, women with babies, elderly men, singles–nearly 8,500 people from Georgia and neighboring states push into the church’s $20 million World Dome auditorium…. [Pastor Creflo] Dollar has built one of the biggest evangelical ministries in the United States, with 25,000 members and $80 million in revenue this year. [Link]WCCI members can tithe online by setting up automatic account withdrawals managed by the church…
Pastor Dollar, whom critics have dubbed Pass The Dollar and Cashflow Dollar for his ostentatious displays of wealth, is not shy about his success. He owns two Roll-Royces and flies the country in a Gulfstream-3 private jet… ‘My church gave me a Rolls-Royce. I would never spend that much money on a Rolls-Royce for several reasons. But when your church congregation — 20,000 at that time — come to you and say, “Pastor, we want you to drive the best,” I’m not going to turn that down. It would be a dishonor to the people that gave it to me.’ [Link – thanks, DDIA]
America’s largest megachurch (Lakewood in Houston) owns its own stadium, but its revenues are ‘only’ $55M a year:
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Lakewood’s stadium |
The nondenominational Lakewood Church, the nation’s largest congregation, moved into the Compaq Center, once the home of the Houston Rockets, over the weekend. After $95 million in renovations, including two waterfalls and enough carpeting to cover nine football fields, the arena now belongs to a charismatic church with a congregation of 30,000, revenues of $55 million last year and a television audience in the millions. [Link]
American megachurches are unapologetically run like businesses and invest heavily in tech in ways that strike me as a bit creepy in the context of faith:
Megachurches can look at their data and identify members who could be volunteering more, who are likely to spend money on products and contribute donations–and how much–and who are becoming discontent and may abandon the church. Visalia First Assembly of God, an evangelical congregation in California’s San Joaquin Valley, improved visitor retention to 59 percent simply by changing the way church officials interact with first-time attendees–at the suggestion of new analytical software.They know who’s related to whom, which church member is battling illness or is seeking a mate–and how best to reach out to people in each circumstance. A bright “we haven’t heard from you in a while, come on back” letter is inappropriate for a longtime church volunteer dealing with chemotherapy. But it’s effective when a 23-year-old single man begins to skip his midweek prayer group. [Link]
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p>So successful are some evangelicals that they’re opening up branches like so many new Home Depots (HD ) or Subways. This year, the 16.4 million-member Southern Baptist Convention plans to “plant” 1,800 new churches using by-the-book niche-marketing tactics. “We have cowboy churches for people working on ranches, country music churches, even several motorcycle churches aimed at bikers,” says Martin King, a spokesman for the Southern Baptists’ North American Mission Board. [Link – thanks, badmash]
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p>Sure, some megachurches take donations from automatic paycheck deductions. But have they convinced Bank of America to let casual attendees tithe straight from the ATM? Does BofA let you book a revival weekend at a local branch?
A better scale comparison is the Vatican, with annual revenues of ~$245M. But in the battle of Templezilla vs. American Megachurch, no contest 
Related post: Shining, gleaming, steaming, flaxen, waxen, Coconut Express
now one can see why in “secular” india, only hindu temples and their income are controlled by the govt. and not other places of worship.
Pastor Creflo ‘Cash Flow‘ Dollar.
You missed the amazing queue system. I believe you get tags that tell you when your Darshan is going to be. The tags identify you by your fingerprint, which ensures that there is no black market for the tags.
Wikipedia also says they have the largest solar cooker. They also have an automatic ladoo maker. Everyone gets a ladoo! Apparently they average about 40,000 visitors per day.
Separation of church and state you ask? I believe the Govt. of AP would simply say ‘Le temple est moi’. The temple is run by a trust. The trustees are appointed by the government.
They do good stuff though. They do fund a university, a hospital and etc. They also provide housing, transportation and food for the poorer pilgrims.
Hm, and here’s the rub – all through history, places of religious worship have been the locus of tremendous wealth – the somanatha temple, the temple in Jerusalem, the Vatican, etc! So this is just part of a long tradition. But I agree – it’s all a bit too creepy for me.
Great businessweek article on the outright adoption of business strategy in the success of American megachurches – here I wonder when the first mega-style churches will start popping up in India. Benny Hinn’s organization has already had a Bangalore crusade, no doubt expecting to cash in on some of the IT wealth, but from what I understand, they came close to loosing a substantial sum of money. This alternative “cashing-in-on-the-faithful” model has had some success.
What does a temple need or do with that much money?
at the risk of offending someone, i wouldn’t compare the Tirupati temple to many megachurches, especially of the benny hinn variety.
also, there is no question of separation of church and state when the government controls most major hindu temples, their land, and determines what to do with their money, to the point of using some of that money for purposes which the donors would never approve. recently some hindu priests had to beg the government to increase their salaries, despite the fact that the temple earned enough money through donations. also, the indian government subsidizes the haj for indian pilgrims (and some christian groups have been lobbying for the same), so again there is no question of separation of church and state in india in the western sense of the word (and even in the west, that is blurred by govt. support for religious schools in the uk, bush’s favoring of faith groups to receive govt. money etc.)
badmash,
What exactly do you find creepy? All the e-services have been put in place to manage the nearly 15 million visitors the temple gets every year. I find it very pragmatic and cool.
And as far as the money is concerned since when did Hinduism become anti-money?
some of the things Tirupati does with the money:
provide free food for as many as 60,000 pilgrims a day, rich and poor alike.
run a gurukulam and pathashala for training future priests
free food, medical treatment and head shaving for the poor
runs two secular schools
runs several charities for children, the poor, women etc.
planted 29,500 acres with 10 million saplings
manages and preseves acres of forest land
publishes numerous books and other material on Hinduism, preserves rare manuscripts etc.
Ok first off, no offense meant to any Hindu mutineers/readers. I was merely making the observation that I’m generally creeped out by the mixing of big money and religion – no matter what religious tradition we’re talking about. It may very well that this (money-religion) is a legitimate and even necessary combination. I just don’t have the stomach for it – that’s a personal opinion (maybe better kept to myself…) As I’ve stated, this mixing is something that has been a part of religious traditions for centuries and will probably go on for a long time.
Also I was talking about Benny Hinn with regards to “mega” Christianity in India – no immediate comparison was intended.
If it’s appropriate to have the state government act as “trustee” of the temple’s money and property, it’s appropriate to allow bookings from state bank offices.
I visited Tirupati this January on a trip to the motherland and while it’s always nice to see Balaji, the temple has become WAY too commercialized. You get to see the deity for all of 30 seconds after being trapped like sardines in a long ass line for a couple of hours (and we were on VIP tickets that supposedly ensured speedy access to the God). There are people who stand besides the deity to serve like the subway-pusher-people-in-Japan, to make sure everyone moves along. One especially loathsome move-along-woman pulled me out of the line and let me stare at Balaji a little longer. I thought she saw something special in my face but noooo she just wanted a few extra bucks. Which I didn’t give her. The whole thing put me in a pissy mood, majestic Balaji darshan notwithstanding.
The trip to the temple combined three great Indian passions – food, religion, bollywood. We took a “luxury” bus (read: A/C cranked up so high you’re frozen solid in 20 minutes) overnight from Bangalore and made frequent yummy idli stops on the way. We also stopped at random temples on the way that we were assured were somehow connected with the Balaji story – “He rested here for a couple of minutes before climbing the mountain, etc.” The final stop was at a resthouse around 4am where we showered and changed into clean clothes before being led to the temple. On the way back to Bangalore, they played Hindi films on the bus. The driver, who also acted as the guide, spoke in Tamil for no apparent reason, as well as unintelligible English. Odd since the bus was going from Karnataka into Andhra Pradesh and though there appeared to be almost every kind of Indian, there were no Tamilians from what I could tell (oh and funnily enough, Nepal was over-represented).
when i said “at the risk of offending someone”, i was referring to the risk of me offending someone by pointing out that Tirupati shouldn’t be compared to a megachurch.
i do think badmash has a point in general about religion and money, but one should take it on a case-by-case basis. as far as i know, none of the Tirupati staff/priests live in great luxury, but follow a fairly austere lifestyle and most of the money that flows to them (after the govt. has taken its cut) goes to charitable and upkeep uses.
although there will always be religious uses of money that others find offensive.
They do good stuff though. They do fund a university, a hospital and etc.
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p> runs two secular schools
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p> runs several charities for children, the poor, women etc.
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p> planted 29,500 acres with 10 million saplings
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p> manages and preseves acres of forest land
Is this something the pilgrims intend when they put money in the Hundi? IMHO, it is political correctness at its worst to applaud when a hindu temple runs two secular schools. They ought to spend more on preserving and promoting Hinduism itself and as a center for culture – a role temples used to play historically. The tirupati temple built a 6-crore sports complex for the AP government while it was paying 15 lakhs per year to the SV university for conducting courses on ancient Indian history and culture. Clear inversion of priorities.
The funny (and ironic) thing is, even though the state completely immersed itself in running the temples (particularly in South India), the state still had to be nominally “secular” – the IAS officers running the temple can be from other religions for example.
eswaran, i said secular schools because that’s how it’s described in the Hinduism Today magazine profile from which I got the information. definitely, some of the money is used for purposes which the devotees do not intend, but i don’t think any of the temple-run programs would particularly cause devotees as much concern as what the govt. does with money collected at temples, including using it for purposes which act against hindus in some instances. clearly the govt. sees hindu temples as a cash cow (sorry mutineers for the exotification:)) that they can use and abuse, whilst having a hands-off policy towards other places of worship. recent concerns about AP’s alleged plans to sell off and develop some of the temple land for non-hindu purposes is one example. i know govt. control also serves to curb any possible misuse and abuse of funds by temple authorities, but when the govt. becomes the bigger culprit what’s the solution?
I have visited many festivals, all over the world, that were ‘organized’ by various Hindu Organization and what always gets to me is when they PESTER you for a donation and when you say no, they go off on a tirade. Does god love me less because I kept my five bucks? If you choose to believe in god then you should realize he resides in temple that is your heart not in your wallet. Now if I can get the message to the people who really need to hear it…..
Ooppss….correction, you choose to believe in god then you should realize he/she resides in temple that is your heart not in your wallet
Cinamon Rani,
If God resides in your heart, then what’s the point of you going to temple/festivities where there are costs(organising, food, cleanup, security, maintenance, electricity, fuel etc) involved? Just stay home and say a silent prayer.
Temples are more than just religious. They are cultural centers as well, and hence they need money. Temples are about people.
M. Nam
Best advice I’ve heard in ages 🙂
I forsook the paying line at Tirupati and decided to stand in the regular line. I wound up meeting and hanging out with some Dalits from Andhra who spoke a bit of Hindi and shared some insanely strong beedis with me (until we got busted). It was instructive to see the devotion that transcended caste and region. Hours later, I got my five second darshan.
Meanwhile, back at the “guesthouse,” the family was watching TV and bragging about their five MINUTE darshan.
But it was still a 5 sec darshan wasnt it? If you really want a 5 min darshan (ie allowed to see the murthi for 5 mins) then you should have high political connections in Andhra.
MoorNam I am scared of you.Are you,in your last post,trying to justify pestering people for donation?
Temples or any religious center needs money yes and I guess they rely on donations as a means but there are different ways of soliciting donation and I think what Cinnamon Rani was alluding to was the aggressive posture adopted by some organizations.I have experienced it myself and it just gets plain annoying when a refusal is followed by a holier-than-thou lecturing by some uncle.Soliciting donation should be a fine art and not a boxing match.
Eddie,
I had heard about this ‘paying’ line.It sounds so crass.Could they proclaim anymore louder that ‘your money can buy you God!’.
But it was still a 5 sec darshan wasnt it? If you really want a 5 min darshan (ie allowed to see the murthi for 5 mins) then you should have high political connections in Andhra.
They went early in the morning. They may have been exaggerating of course, and yes, they had a “letter” from someone– but I don’t know how prominent the patron was.
This is a great discussion–everyone’s individual beef (!) with organized religion seems to come out. I agree that if you don’t like the face of organized religion then say a silent prayer at home. When millions of devotees descend on a place, I think it’s great that someone is taking charge, organizing, making arrangements. Why does everyone break out in a rash when that happens to be a Hindu temple? And separation of church and state? In India that really does not happen. I think it’s amazing that we carry out so many secular, democratic aspirations given the kind of society we are. Is it always the state that is at fault? It’s people who create a state, and religion has never been out of it in India (or the USA for that matter). And by the way, I am a liberal, secular type in what I do and think, but I am beginning to understand why Hindu (mutineers!) get mad at everyone dumping on them when it comes to expressions of religious, cultural practice.
Eddie,
I had heard about this ‘paying’ line.It sounds so crass.Could they proclaim anymore louder that ‘your money can buy you God!’.
I would have hoped that a portion of the money went to some noble religious or humanitarian purpose (or at a minimum the upkeep of the temple). But the guys in the above comments state that a temple in India is a “secular” institution, so I don’t know.
And by the way, I am a liberal, secular type in what I do and think, but I am beginning to understand why Hindu (mutineers!) get mad at everyone dumping on them when it comes to expressions of religious, cultural practice.
I have been here only a few months, but I have seen members of every religious group claim victimization. Thats just the mutiny 🙂
cynic,
You don’t need a letter, anyone one can do it you just need to pay lots of money for the extended puja. The money one hopes is used for a good cause.
eddie,
Damn you! I thought I was the only 2gen that did the free darshan. Now did you also do the walk up? Because I think I still got you beat.
More importantly how does one ask some one what caste they are? I thought it was a “don’t ask don’t tell” thing?
When millions of devotees descend on a place, I think it’s great that someone is taking charge, organizing, making arrangements.
True. Considering the numbers involved, Tirupati is incredibly well organized. And the laddoos are to die for.
@ Kanya/Eddie:
Of course hindus will claim victimization, because hindus are victims 😉
Seriously, hindus are not victims, hinduism is. Couple of clarifications before I get flamed :-). By Hindus, I mean all people who are born hindus and not necessarily believers. The believers, of course, are victims of the happy mixture of state and religion by extension.
I personally know too many instances of temple property being (mis)used by people with political connections. My experience is from a really small town for a temple with meagre resources. I can only imagine what happens with an institution like Tirumala. AFAIK, Karnataka, Tamil nadu and AP even run a ministry to take care of temples (called the Endowments dept) which are claimed to be the only profitable ministries. The income and expenditure of this ministry is directly coupled with the state budgetary allocations. Here is one link from AP govt (look for page 44). How much more non-secular can it get?
“AFAIK, Karnataka, Tamil nadu and AP even run a ministry to take care of temples (called the Endowments dept) which are claimed to be the only profitable ministries.”
wasn’t there some scandal some years ago about the Karnataka govt. allocating significant portions of temple revenue for the development of churches and mosques/madrassas in the state?
Well, the quality and size has gone down, sadly. Not as good as say around 20 yrs ago; then they were HUGE and richly laden with ghee, cashews, raisins… the term ‘tirupathi laddu size’ was used to describe huge round objects in common parlance…
M. Nam, the reason I go to these festivals/temples is for the Free Food! I am guju! If I need god, I know where to find him/her!!!!
For added convenience, you can book religious pilgrimages at State Bank branches worldwide. Separation of temple and state, what?
IMO that has nothing to do with state being involved in organised religion – that’s pure business (not sure how good it is, though).
The state being actively involved in running temple trusts is, however, an entirely different matter.
“Karnataka, Tamil nadu and AP even run a ministry to take care of temples..”
Yep – all religions benefit from government funds (govt. arranges hajj trips for muslims too) , yet each group will claim to be the victims. Our democracy is far from being secular.
to add to that, things are that rosy in U.S either – George Bush’s America spends a lots of dollars on faith based initiatives – (read faith=christian)
“Yep – all religions benefit from government funds (govt. arranges hajj trips for muslims too) , yet each group will claim to be the victims. Our democracy is far from being secular.”
there would be no problem with all religions benefiting from govt. funds (read temple funds) if the govt. collected revenue from all religious places of worship. the problem arises with the govt. collecting funds from only one religion’s place of worship and using it to subsidize others.
“the problem arises with the govt. collecting funds from only one religion’s place of worship and using it to subsidize others.”
true. this particular issue about managing temple funds is probably specific to temples – i never heard of that being done for mosques or churches. but i never said all religions benefit equally – in fact they can never be done equally. so I say – stop serving religion to people.
Problem in India is that it is pseudo secular, Minority run institutions are not taxed Hindu run institutions are, Different personal laws for Muslims, dont care about being PC but that is not u call secular. Smacks of double standards..
well then you really should pay to cover at the very least the base cost of your meal…I mean I’m assuming you can afford it much more than the genuinely poor who can’t (given that you’re flying around the world and all)…and being guju doesn’t give one the licence to be cheap…
An anonymous devotee has offered a $1 million note at the Tirupati temple in Andhra Pradesh, creating a sensation in India’s richest shrine… The temple staff noticed the note… while counting the daily collections in the ‘hundi’, or cash box… They said Andhra Bank officials had confirmed that it was a genuine note.
Alas..there is no such thing as a million dollar bill – the damn thing’s just a collectible issued by the “International Association of Millionaires” and is currently worth about USD 75.
And yes..I’ll have what the “Andhra bank officials” are smoking
Our democracy is far from being secular.
India’s emphatically NOT secular in the western/modern sense of the word (i.e. separation of church and state or being generally irreligious) but it doesn’t aim to be either. Secularism, Indian style, has come to mean non-communalism (i.e. Hindu-Muslim bhai bhai or all religions are equal etc.). So, for example, most Indians were furious when Advani called Jinnah secular because alcohol-swilling-two-nation-theorist Jinnah, while undoubtedly secular in the modern sense of the word, was the antithesis of an Indian secularist. By contrast, uber-religious Gandhi or Maulana Azad (a Deobandi, no less) are the models of Indian secularism…
Hindu groups based in India generally don’t have a philosophical opposition to the state controlling temples etc. The opposition arises mainly because ONLY Hindu temples are controlled by the state.
So it’s unfair to say that India isn’t meeting a certain standard when that standard isn’t even an aspiration. Lets talk more about the failures of Indian style secularism instead 😀
“Hindu groups based in India generally don’t have a philosophical opposition to the state controlling temples etc. The opposition arises mainly because ONLY Hindu temples are controlled by the state.”
of course. muslim groups aren’t complaining about the hajj subsidies either. They are all benefitting from it.
Gandhi and Azad were secularists. So what if Gandhi was uber-religious – believing in a secular system of govt has nothing to do with whether you are religious or not. It is the same Gandhi who brought the ire of hindu nationalists on himself by repeatedly demanding Indians to pay 150m rs which was due to Pakistan at the time of partition. AFAIK, he stood for secular principles. Jinnah wasn’t secular by any standards – no wonder most indians were furious when he was called secular. Being an alcohol drinker would make you secular? nice!
Najeeb,
In Post # 39, you quote: “Hindu groups based in India generally don’t have a philosophical opposition to the state controlling temples etc. The opposition arises mainly because ONLY Hindu temples are controlled by the state.” Then you respond “of course. muslim groups aren’t complaining about the hajj subsidies either. They are all benefitting from it.”
Is there a parallel between the two situations—(1) the government running Hindu temples and (2) the government providing Haj subsidies? If so, could you elaborate?
:So it’s unfair to say that India isn’t meeting a certain standard when that standard isn’t even an aspiration. Lets talk more about the failures of Indian style secularism instead.”
i think that’s an important distinction.
“Is there a parallel between the two situations—(1) the government running Hindu temples and (2) the government providing Haj subsidies? If so, could you elaborate?”
Yes, there is. In both cases, govt resources are used to benefit the religious groups. In temples, they collect money and run it – you know the massive apparatus required to manage 250 cr in Andhra alone? For Haj, govt. takes the money from muslims and organizes flights, manages people who want to go on the trip, etc. How are they any different?
najeeb, the govt. taking money from hindu temples and then deigning to return only a portion of it to them to help them manage their affairs is not really benefiting them in my opinion. govt. resources (public taxpayer money) are not being used to benefit hindu temples, but a portion of hindu revenue collected at temples is being returned to temples.
also, i wasn’t aware that the money that the govt uses to subsidize the hajj is collected from mosques etc. it is my understanding that this is public money used to supplement or subsidize the cost of hajj for muslims (to make hajj as affordable to as many as possible). please correct me if i’m wrong, but it wouldn’t be a subsidy if the govt. took muslim money to pay for a muslim pilgrimage.
Whose God Is it Anyways,
I am not sure whether it is only a portion of the revenue that gets returned to the temples – my impression is that the govt. uses more than what they get from revenue to cover the cost. someone with data on this can correct me. As for hajj, the way it works is that compared to the private trips which is what 50% of muslims take, the officially organized ones are cheaper (but the quality is less too) and the govt resources are used in it as well. There are several domestic hindu pilgrimages that are subsidized in the similar way.
“:So it’s unfair to say that India isn’t meeting a certain standard when that standard isn’t even an aspiration. Lets talk more about the failures of Indian style secularism instead.”
May be it isn’t an aspiration for you – but it is for many people. How is it fair to a budhist/atheist while his taxpayer money is used for someone else’s religious cause?
najeeb, i’m a bit confused. the govt. does not use any of its own resources for temple upkeep. rather, the govt. takes money from the temple – money that donors gave — for its own uses and decides how much it will use for temple maintenance, salaries etc. so i don’t see how the govt. is benefiting the temple at all when it using the temple’s own money – reduced by several crores — to run the temple. it is the temple resources that are benefiting the govt.
i think this is different to the hajj, where govt. (or public) money, and not money collected from mosques or other muslim institutions, is used to benefit muslim pilgrims (whereas, if the govt. subsidizes hindu pilgrimages, this “subsidy” is really paid for by the hindu temples themselves who have given up revenue to the govt.) so your point about the buddhist/atheists also applies to hindus who see temple revenue used for the benefit of other religions (whether its hajj or development of churches, mosques in Karnataka). as i said before, this wouldn’t be a problem if the govt. collected and controlled the revenue of all religious institutions.
ideally, you’re right, the govt. shouldn’t control any religious institution’s revenue or it should control revenue of all religious institutions, and ideally govt. shouldn’t use any public money to fund any religious institution (because as you pointed out, why should atheist taxpayers fund religious institutions?)
Indian secularism is a funny entity. Pandering to religious superstitions of minorty communities and of late to the majority community (because of the backlash) is called as “secularism”..
I think the “hajj” subsidy by itself is not a big thing. If you consider the maximum number of Indian pilgrims (are around 150000) and even if everyone avail the benefits it won’t amount to much. Compare the expenditure incurred by the govt. in organising or helping organise “amarnath yatra” / kumbh mela etc..
The worst part is the use of “loudspeakers” everyday by the mosques and by the temples during festivals.. No courtesy shown by these “religious” folks for old / sick and other neighbors..
“Compare the expenditure incurred by the govt. in organising or helping organise “amarnath yatra” / kumbh mela etc..”
i don’t see how you can compare the two, when one is subsidized by public money and the other by basically its own money returned to it in another form. this is not to say that i object to subsidizing the hajj in principle. i don’t.
as for the loudspeakers, i agree. the cacophony caused by competing loudspeakers at churches, mosques and temples is annoying.
this temple matter is a separate thing – i still don’t know whether govt is making or losing money there. but hajj and other hindu pilgrimages subsidized by the govt are very much comparable – they cater to the same kind of audience and the money comes directly from the taxpayers. i don’t know whether all hindu pilgrimages are sponsored by the money that comes to the state govts through temples.. it seems too far fetched to be true. anyways, am against all this.. enough for today!
“i still don’t know whether govt is making or losing money there. but hajj and other hindu pilgrimages subsidized by the govt are very much comparable – they cater to the same kind of audience and the money comes directly from the taxpayers. i don’t know whether all hindu pilgrimages are sponsored by the money that comes to the state govts through temples.”
there is no way for the govt. to lose money when it comes to temples 🙂 the govt. earns money from temples, money it uses for non-temple purposes. if the govt. wasn’t earning loads of money from temples, they wouldnt’ be that eager to take over the management of more and more money-making temples. the money that goes to hindu pilgrimages is not really coming directly from taxpayers (even if it’s not the exact same money collected from temples) because indirectly the temples are funding their own pilgrimages by giving the govt. money. so it doesn’t really matter what account it comes from when it comes to hindu pilgrimages. and nothing is far-fetched in india 🙂 cheers.
najeeb,
this temple matter is a separate thing – i still don’t know whether govt is making or losing money there.
Check this. Clearly, atleast the TN govt is making profit running temples. I can dig up some proof for other govt’s too, I am just too lazy. In any case, I have checked this data before, and while there may be some occasions when the govt’s spent money on hindu temples, on average running hindu temples have been profitable for the govts.
Also, Amarnath Yatra is not subsidized by the government (a reference about this in this article). But I think Kumbh Mela was indeed subsidized heavily. Also, Gujarat govt subsidizes pilgrimage to Manasarovar. All in all, quite a messy affair, with Hindu temples losing quite a bit in the bargain.