The ToI claims two tourists from Morocco and the UAE were deported for making out in Mumbai. What say we pass the hat so the thin khaki line gets laid once in awhile?
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Slapping hussies in Meerut |
Ibtisay Lamyani, 27, and Alfasar Nasir Abdul Hussain Ali, 37, were visiting India separately and had met at the Gateway of India. They were necking near the Metro cinema junction on Tuesday afternoon when a woman constable from Azad Maidan police station decided to intervene. She warned them against indecent behaviour in a public place. [Link]
The ToI’s smug commentary mirrors the sourpuss constable:
When they argued back, she demanded they show their passports. As luck would have it Lamyani’s visa had expired… Not chastened in the least, they promptly got into a clinch again. [Link]
The female tourist saw the director’s cut of Bombay (now with behind-the-bars footage), and both tourists were deported:
The police then submitted a chargesheet to the court which convicted Lamyani to a day’s imprisonment… Ali was also fined. They were both deported to their respective countries on the same night. [Link]
India Welcomes You.
Related posts: Bitter much?, Do Not Touch!, No sex please, we’re Indian, There is no place to hide it in India, Sex (gasp) in India: juxtaposition, Those legs are weapons of mass distraction, apparently, Indian Maxim is out to save lives, Dress Code
@dharma queen, #88
possibly for some. but it is hardly easy to say. i don’t think fobs/desis india are any less confident or any more insecure than abcd’s. but remember, if you generalize, you should be willing to accept what it says about you.
Expose, since I’m Canadian that didn’t hurt a bit. Most of us hicks up here think the war on terrorism has been insanity of the foulest kind. You go. If you want to hurt my feelings, you could always take on the softwood lumber dispute.
Kush, I think you are right. Some of the laws have been updated but A LOT remain from “The Raj”. I remember reading somewhere that when Lal Bahadur Shastri was PM, he was of the opinion that the entire penal code should be re-written. I dont think that ever happened.
I hope someone with Indian law knowledge can add more.
DQ,
Gaurav, perhaps you’re right. I checked and can’t find another source for this story, it’s TOI only. However, I would think that any offense serious enough to be arrested for is probably a violation of your visa terms and could lead to deportation. What makes me suspicious is actually the efficiency with which they were deported – I didn’t realize that the bureaucracy could move so fast!
Ok I googled and found this link that shows when laws were written and modified I see several 1870’s laws in that list 🙂
Here is an excerpt from that blog about old Indian laws
Over on The Examined Life, Ravikiran makes a case that legal options for regular folks like us are not desirable because our complicated laws actually favour large corporate groups with lots of money who can afford to wait around for years while the common man goes nuts waging his battle against them. Says Ravikiran:
Alas, this is all too true. I heard someone say on TV once that our Income Tax law is the longest in the world, having gone through hundreds of modifications over the years.
But to add to what Ravi is saying, our big problem today is that the laws governing us are so convoluted simply because they are so damn old! We are governed by so many archaic, anachronistic, useless laws that just the interpretation of them ties up cases for years. Many of our laws are a century old; some even older. These laws have to be interpreted in a modern context to deal with the realities of this century, but they were written in an age when none of these issues were thought of.
Dharma Q,
Well, since you insist. And given that our debate/argument/mudfest revolves around a moral/imoral law. Thus by extension morality. I could never understand how the canucks could hoodwink the world into believing that they are somehow different/better, more MORAL than the American’s or from most of the world for that matter. The truth remaims that while you may lecture the world on morality and act all holier than though…take some time to peek into your own backyard. Your treatment of the native canadians is reprehensible. At least your neighbours to the south are atoning for their sins. An endangered animal species in canada has a better chance at survival than the poor native canadian, whose land by the way you live on.
Ennis,
Well there is a point, Indian police and bureaucracy is fast when it is pissed off, but even the burra sahibs can not revoke the visa so quickly. Ofcourse the incident is very suspicious because I can not believe that India police (even that of Mumbai)have become so honest as to decline grease. Methinks there might have been more which meets the eye.
Uninformed speculation follows
May be the couple mentioned in article were paramours having a rendezvous.Once the girl was deported, the guy decided that there was no point in staying.
Regards.
Expose,
LOL. You forgot the softwood lumber, that’s where the real dharma – I mean drama – is.
I hear a lot of black people down there are upset a lot of the time, about a lot of things. Not to mention migrant workers. And Sikhs who get shot because some Yankee thinks they’re Muslims. And Muslims who get locked up for no reason. Maybe you can put all these people in touch with the Natives in the States who, according to you, know the secret to being treated well by the powers that be.
Canucks don’t have to prove anything. People have a funny way of running to the Canadian border when they need help, or justice, or freedom (blacks on the underground railroad), or the right to marry (gays), or affordable drugs (everyone). And Americans have a funny way of wearing the maple leaf on their backpacks when abroad…
Don’t think has specifically been brought up, but the ToI article states the exact laws they were charged under:
A quick search (someone may be able to find the exact text?) brought up the following about what section 110 covers:
The decision to deport both, especially so quickly, is very curious, agreed. I thought India’s court system was infamous for trials that drag on for years. Perhaps Mumbai is different? Or immigration/visa violations are handled differently?
I’m surprised the dude wasn’t able to just slap some rupees into someone’s palm (over or under the table) and stay, without the visa issue .
“I’m with Manish and Bong Breaker on this one, then I got bored with the thread. Why is it so many Indians get defensive when we make fun of stuff going on back there?”
I think its because of all the insane and inane observations that individuals who have been to India maybe once come up with. I for one am tired of all the “Is it really like that in India” questions from people and I believe this post perpetuates that. And I notice the ‘star’ in these police harassments so far are corrupt policewomen, giving rise to offensive posts titled “Bitter much?”. How offensive is that?
“Why is it so many Indians get defensive when we make fun of stuff going on back there?”
You make fun of somebody and then are surprised when they get upset? What kind of logic is that?
Dharma Q,
I am from the land of no kissing. So all that talk – water off ducks back. Hey, how come you fall back on that tried or should i say trite candian bait and switch. i.e., remove the natives forcibly from cities. move them to the boondocks where they will slowly perish, hopefuly. interim, lecture the world on morality. and when the native topic is broached….do the avoidance dance and never own up to any moral wrongdoing. DQ, You are a good canuck, eh.
Expose,
You got me there. Native Canadians generally do not live well in Canada, and are subject to widespread racial prejudice. Now try to find an American, or an Indian, who’ll admit to their problems so graciously.
DQ
P.S. That said, not all natives live in segregated boondocks. I work with a couple of natives who live in the city and make good salaries.
P.P.S. The Canadian government has been on its knees, begging forgiveness and apologizing and throwing money at native communities, for a long time.
Man, I just love it when it starts getting all non-PC…good fun as long as it lasts 🙂
nanda kishore #114,
yup, full funs it is. 🙂 now that manu died off, if only somebody somehow starts the aryan theory…
DQ, I think there are a wide variety of opinions out there in India just as there are in your country, and there is debate all the time…people start getting defensive when some of the provocateurs are not Indians. Not saying that is how it should be, but that’s how it usually it is. I also think it is related to the fact that Indians (and I imagine other former colonial countries) are extremely conscious of how they are perceived, and how their country is perceived, esp in the west, and that’s where part of the defensiveness comes from.
Dharma Q, A breakthru, finally. Are you a single female by any chance? Expose
Wow i had no idea this many people would be reading/commenting good old SM on a Sunday! If i wasn’t online to buy tickets and just happened to click on over i would have missed all the brouhaha. I’ll see y’all fellers tomorrow (when I’m actually getting paid).
Oh and yeah, deporting those two was kinda lame, the overzealous cop-chick was kinda lame, and ToI is very lame. I could, however, interpert it as some strange form of cosmic retribution for one of the tounge-swappers (the one from UAE):
I remember visiting Dubai several summers as a HS student (I had family there; thankfully they left Sheikh Muktoum’s land of opportunity for Shake Bush’s). Although I had a blast with my family, this one time we were stopping over on the way back from India. The overzealous customs officials made us open our bags and subsequently confiscated two 3-foot-tall metallic murtis of Shri Krishna we had bought at Dwarka. I was only 15 but made a huge noise and demanded (foolishly, like the American kid so used to religious freedom that I was) to speak with a manager, etc. My relatives hushed me into submission, whispering on the way home that “we have to live here, you get to leave in a few days…”
How ’bout we report THAT, ToI?
When you have about every other person inquiring about poverty, caste system, arranged marriages etc. in your country, it’s hard not to develop a defensive chip. Admittedly, something positive has been added to that list lately – IT, so we can relax a little more.
Well now if they were in UAE, caught in such an act would have landed them in jail as well. Unless they married.
ha!
tempest in a tea-pot. yeah, i can see how motherland-browns get all defensive, i do as an american when people say shit that isn’t cool, though self-critique is an essential part of being a modern. but look who posted this, manish, does anyone here think that this dude has been to india “only once.” sure, he be american and americo-centric, but i think you need to cut him some slack, and not just because we’re friends, his heart isn’t in the evil place some of you ascribe to it. every nation has warts, focusing on warts only isn’t usually cool, but manish doesn’t focus just on the warts. so what gives with the hating?
sure, there are serious issues that are elided by this post, but this is a weblog, not a peer-reviewed social science journal. taking it in that spirit, i think that warrants chillin’ with a cool glass of wine and letting the love flow….
tempest in a tea-pot. yeah, i can see how motherland-browns get all defensive,
Razib,
I didn’t.
I once went to Kurt Vonnegut’s talk. It was hilarious and I remember him saying, “Americans can be really self-critical and do something about it“. He went on with lot of historical examples. He is one self-critical guy himself.
I think it is getting better about desis not getting self-defensive. Ten years, they would be fist fights, now at least people agree to disagree.
We have had people like Raja Ram Mohan Roy who challenged the foundations of Indian society,
I still think Manu digression was tad deep end.
Expose, The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that you are some kind of impostor. There is just that touch of bitterness in post 107 which only an American could achieve, or a Canadian pretending to be an American could know about. Besides which, someone from the land of no kissing would surely not be asking whether I am a single female or not. DQ
Besides which, someone from the land of no kissing would surely not be asking whether I am a single female or not.
Oh I would.
Are you?
Kush and others,
Jiski Phati naa Pair Biwai, Woh Kya Jaane Peer Parai.
Another one
Lohe ka swaad Lohaar se nahi pooncho, us Ghode se poonchon jiske moonh mein lagaam hain.
Regard
PS. I assure you that there were many more Indians than Ram Mohan Roy who reformed Indian Society. Try Guru Aurobindo,Dayanand Saraswati or Swami Narain for size.
Holy Crap. I think a lot more than the thin khaki line needs to get laid. . .
kush, haven’t you lived in the united states longer than you have in india? not really relevant to the thread anyhow, i was making a trendline observation, not a absolute judgement.
kush, haven’t you lived in the united states longer than you have in india?
Yes.
Moornam # 61
A major reason for these kinds incidents are due to tha fact that India does not have enough de-centralisation of laws. An overly centralised decision making, with most of the laws being framed in New Delhi, results in the too much generalisation by trying to keep everyone happy.
India needs to delegate more power to the states, and in turn the states need to delegate more to the districts and taluks. That way, local bodies can make laws that are more in tune with the cultural norms of the place. Mumbai can then loosen PDA norms and Krishnapalli can have it’s own penalities.
That’s one of the craziest post I have ever read on the boorish behaviour of the lower ranks of Indian Police.And Rohin agrees with Moornam! Some clarifications are needed.
Law and order is a State subject. Central Government has no authority on Indian police. State Government is the mai-baap of Indian police.So Indian law and order business is already decentralised.
Cental Government controls army and para-military forces. It’s due to a strong Central Government that you find India still in one piece. Otherwise people like Laloo Yadav,Mulayam Yadav and Jayalalitha would rule the roost like Afgan warlords and Baloch Sardars. Kudos to Ambedkar & co that they resisted the temptation to give States more power despite being champions of downtrodden. How longsighted they were!
3.During Hindu-Muslim or caste riots the role of police is always suspect.They go with groups that can bribe them more. It’s always Central forces that restores normalcy and protects minorities and lower castes. UP’s PAC(provincial armed constabulary) is notorious for instigating riots.
Indian police is a colonial dinosaur. British created the Darogas and Indian police to rule Indians. The concept of service is absent. Police think that they are the rulers of people not servants of people. Vested interests stalled reforms of Indian police. So you have Indian police which is pretty much the same police force of colonial era.
The most important point. Lower ranks of Indian police is selected from school and college dropouts. Police constables sit through a sham exam but selected on the basis of how fast he can run 100 meters or how long can he jump. So you have an uncultured and unsympathetic police force.
Moral of the story
Law and order should be centralised while States should be given more economic freedom. Central Goverment exclusively raises direct and Indirect taxes while States can only impose Sales tax and Octroi tax(that too is being taken away from them by introducing VAT. This should change.
Saheli -please feel free to chip in and help if you like. i’m sure it’ll welcomed over there.
I think the indian society needs to change and will change but at its own pace. In the meantime, the tourists should be cognizant of the local taboos (and laws!) just like anywhere else. Speaking of tourism- does anyone know which nincompoop is running the “exciting india” campaign in the middle of the market section of WSJ! The snowy indian summers is outlandishly incongruent too.
I have witnessed similar incidents, in every case it was an attempt at a shakedown, more to do with economics than morals ( or some freudian impulse ).
Spot on. It is as much a part of growing up in urban India as goofing off in the college canteen, rating FTV models, and getting dumped by your girlfriend because “papa is very strict”. In fact, if you were never harassed by the police, chances are you never got any action at all.
Knowing this makes it less special though. You thought at the time you were rebelling against societal norms by making out (and paying the price for it) – turns out all your friends were making out at the same time at a different place. I don’t know, it takes something away from the fond memories of the thick end of a lathi on your back.
Well, I DID say I didn’t know what I was talking about. Sounds weird to be referred to by my real name on SM too. However the points you make aren’t an argument against delegating power to states, apart from point 2, which I had not thought about. The rest are criticisms of the police and their poor reputation was never in dispute.
As an Indian, I think the type of moral policing reported in the article needs to end but I am struck by the lack of historical and comparative context in many of the comments.
Firstly, even in the “unrepressed” West, not everything is permitted. There are societies – increasingly few as more get “civilized” – where women move around bare-breasted. In the unlikely event of people from such societies moving to Western countries, would the women have the right to move around in public without covering their breasts? I suspect not – but then it seems to me that in this particular case, the distinction between India and the West is one of degree, not kind.
So much for the comparative angle…with regard to the historical angle, it is noteworthy how much things have changed in the West in the last hundred years or so. I remember a long time ago listening to Ali Mazrui who in the 1980s made a controversial series for PBS titled “The Africans.” In trying to make sense of the mess in many African socieities, he observed that the European colonialists when they first came to Africa, regarded the “lack” of clothing in such societies as a sign of their lack of civilization and made it their mission to clothe them up “properly.” A hundred or so years later, when the mores in Europe had changed, the same societies were again castigated for being repressed. Ali Mazrui commented “No wonder the Africans are confused.” I am not knowledgable about Africa to comment on the validity of Mazrui’s observation: I bring this up only to point out that holding up non-Western societies to current Western standards should be done with caution. I do not say that such comparisions should not be done at all and I fully appreciate that taken to extremes, this sort of “sensitivity” can result in a failure to condemn practices which ought to be condemned.
No doubt, India has problems – sexual repression being among them – which need to be addressed. But I am not convinced that the solution lies in adopting the current mores in the West. To be frank, I don’t know the solution; indeed if it was that simple, we would have found the solution already. This is not something that can be tackled by governmental fiat – social reform is much more complicated. Witness the prevalance of untouchability in India inspite of the fact that there is a law forbidding the practice.
My 2 cents worth on the subject.
Suresh.
That’s what I originally said. I guess I stand vindicated. It seems the Indian legal code is from the 1860’s, someone now asserts that the police force is a colonial dinosaur, I remember a friend of mine trying to sort something out while buying a piece of land and it turned out the laws were over 500 years old! Things need to change for sure and starting with the laws would be a very good idea. Perhaps they don’t change precisely because a lot of people benefit from the obfuscation.
The whole point of the post was to contrast laws with tradition and not the British with Manu. Never underestimate the sepia collaborationists to drag in every bit of irrelevance at any opportunity and with the utmost virulence.
Not entirely sure how you came to that conclusion. You rightly claim that Manu was dragged in as an irrelevance, but re-reading what you originally wrote I’m reminded of the head-in-the-sand mentality that people objected to. The British are just as irrelevant, what bearing do they have on the police or the justice system now? None. The belief that tradition and the original Indian way was so fantastic and the evil British spoilt everything is hilarious.
And if you’re suggesting ‘tradition’ is preferable to law, you’re pretty deluded. But your point about why laws don’t change is correct. I don’t believe any Brits, Muslims or even Manu are involved in that.
Perhaps I should’ve amended that to “Brits, Muslim invaders or even Manu…”
manish – off-topic, and yet topical – is there a ‘vision statement’ to the blog, is there a need for one – to be the sounding board on what should be posted – and gives you all a principled high ground from which to manage the feedback and keep the thread from vacillating from one extreme to another. the same issue extends to the news boards – there is a glut of information with no threat to tie it all except that it is linked to india and generally makes the poster feel pumped (as in proud or as in reamed).
I travelled to Bengal with my then-boyfriend (who was white, to make things worse), and we pretty much spent the entire trip in a clinch. We kissed on the street, we kissed at dhabas, we kissed on crowded trains. We got a few voyeurs gawking and trailing us – but no one said or did anything hostile.
And that makes you, like, so cool.
even i dont know what i’m trying to say here in those last few lines. sorry guys. brain fart
Who said the Brits were relevant? It’s a conclusion everyone simply jumped to. I said I’m surprised there are such laws and wondered where they came from. And it turns out to be true that they came from the Brits.
And by the way, if you think laws are preferable to tradition you are a sadist. But let’s try and do this without any further name-calling.
‘Deluded’ isn’t technically a name, it’s a transitive verb. ‘Sadist’ is a name. Laws are of course preferable to tradition, as everyone will define tradition differently.
Divya,
If you seriously believe that there was no established legal framework in place within India before the British came along, then I suggest you do some extensive research on the organisational infrastructure of the Mughal Empire and then reassess your perspective.
Not necessarily. Laws, unless of the Shariah variety, are deemed to be man-made and in a democratic society can therefore be changed. “Traditions”, however, cannot necessarily be amended with regards to changing times, customs, and social mores. I would therefore say that imposing “traditions” on people and expecting them to adhere to them, regardless of the individual’s own wishes, the context of the situation, and the relevance of those “traditions” to the timeframe and location one happens to be living in, is actually a far worse thing to do to someone than simply expecting citizens to adhere to the rule of law in a democractic society.
Folks, I’m only talking about the relevant law, i.e., anti-kissing. This type of behavior in India was regulated by social norms and not legal ones. The whole point is that there are different traditions in different places. Just as in Italy people kiss all over the place and in the U.S. it’s far less and in India comparatively non-existent. A law is a one size fits all thing but doesn’t work for all in the same way. Are you saying that there should be kissing laws? If not, then how does one determine where to kiss and where not to? People do it according to what feels right and that is often dictated by custom (which is almost as binding as law but you don’t get thrown into prison for it and you don’t need to bribe cops).
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sadist
n : someone who obtains pleasure from inflicting pain or others
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Divya, why do you characterise those who privelige laws over tradition as inflicting pain on others? That has to be the strangest comment I have read in a long time.
Jay – it was the first pejorative that popped in my head to counter deluded. We don’t really have to analyze everything to death, do we. What kind of person prefers to have laws about kissing anyway.?
Divya
I’m not analysing everything to death, just wondering in what way preferring law over tradition is an act of cruelty. That’s all. Given that some Indian traditions are pitiful and backwards, as a general rule, I think people should slash and question traditions as much as possible, without worrying about the sensitivities of traditionalists.
Dharma Q,
Restassured, I am not an impostor – born and bred in the land of no kissing. And proud of it. Never been to Canada. Never been outside New York, the place I arrived 7 yrs ago. Can prove it if need be. Anyhow, my citizenship or origins have no bearing on my critique.
Women’s activist Madhu Kishwar’s take on the Manusmriti.
http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/2001/1-2/2001-1-22.shtml
by the way, folks, the following section from IPC is the basis of ‘no kissing’ edicts.
“141[294. Obscene acts and songs Whoever, to the annoyance of others- (a) does any obscene act in any public place, or (b) sings, recites or utters any obscene song, ballad or words, in or near any public place, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three months, or with fine, or with both.]” link
While it is true that this was written originally by the British, the definition of what is obscene has changed in a century and it is the indian legal system that continues to interpret kissing in public (in this case atleast) as obscene. So quit blaming the British.