The Minuteman Project (MMP) is a group of reportedly 6,500 volunteer citizens who are attempting to address and curb illegal immigration in the United States by patrolling the U.S.-Mexico and U.S.-Canada borders. The purpose of the group, in its own words, is:
to bring national awareness to the decades-long careless disregard of effective U.S. immigration law enforcement. It is a reminder to Americans that our nation was founded as a nation governed by the “rule of law,” not by the whims of mobs of ILLEGAL aliens who endlessly stream across U.S. borders…. Future generations will inherit a tangle of rancorous, unassimilated, squabbling cultures with no common bond to hold them together, and a certain guarantee of the death of this nation as a harmonious “melting pot.” The result: political, economic and social mayhem. [Link]
Not surprisingly, the MPP has generated a signficant amount of controversy: it has been accused of being racist, ineffective, illegitimate, and of having ties to Neo-Nazis. Last year, legal observers from the American Civil Liberties Union and the University of Arizona monitored the activities of the MMP volunteers, before the MMP left Arizona in April 2005. One concerned onlooker had this to say about the MMP’s work:
“It’s going to encourage a lot of negative implications for brown-looking people, if you want to call it that, racial profiling….” [Link]
To be sure, citizens can be an integral part of a wider law enforcement initiative. For example, community policing — which involves collaborative efforts between the police and members of the general public, and which demands compassion from the police towards the communities they serve — has shown encouraging signs of success, particularly in areas with high concentrations of minorities, such as Miami. However, the MPP is not a part of an official border patrol program; it is a self-appointed entity that acts in isolation and with an unfortunate view of diversity and multiculturalism. Moreover, there are fears from human rights organizations as to how the MMP actually carries out its patrolling efforts – through directly confronting migrants, apprehending them, or worse. There is, obviously, a human element involved with immigration (e.g., the sacrifice involved, the struggle to cross, and the motivition to provide a better life for the immigrant, his or her family, and those back “home”). The stories of Indians coming to the United States with little or no command of the English language, modest amounts of money, and uncertain job prospects come to mind. In fact, these stories lead me to appreciate all newcomers and immigrant hopefuls.
The Border Film Project researches this human element. In order to understand “the humanity present on both sides of the border,” the Project selected an unusual means: it
distributed hundreds of disposable cameras to two groups on different sides of the U.S.-Mexico border: undocumented migrants crossing the desert into the United States and American Minutemen trying to stop them. [Link]
The photos themselves are extremely gripping and present an interesting insight into the differences between the migrants and the Minutemen.
To anyone concerned with the MPP’s mission and its work, the MPP announced this week that it is not only returning to Arizona, but is expanding its operations to other states, including California, New York, and Washington.
Yes my friends, bring your passport – even for domestic travel.
Being allowed into a country/club/educational institutional is a controlled privilege, not a right. Are the IITs in India about to do away with the venerable IIT-JEE and allow students who don’t meet their admission criteria in ? I don’t see any objection about that “exclusivist” attitude. Once again, is your comment only directed at the American situation and other countries/institutions that impose similar controls not subjected to the same criticism ?
Vikram,
I have not objection to controls and the rule of law, be it in US or other country.
In fact, if you go to USCIS website (fomerly known as INS), you will see they are more than two dozen ways to immigrate (education, job sponsorship, expertise in select fields like national interest waiver, marriage, asylum, diversity lottery, demand for medical professional, etc.) to US. My point was more general (not even directed toward South Asians) people tend to think they are the only deserving cases or some goofed up version of “manifest destiny”.
I think present rules for immigration are more or less neutral to ethnicity, nationality, and religion (not entirely, there are fine prints). 1965 immigration law was one step in that direction. 1965 law was closely linked to cold war-space’s race (demand for highly trained personal) and civil rights movement. There is huge difference between US laws and Canadian/ Australian model for immigration. In some ways, I like more diverse approach of US (even though it has more hoops) rather than formula-based Canadian/ Australian approach.
If one uses IIT, IIM or family sponsorship as a marketting tool to better/ immigrate, that is perfectly fine. Sometimes (not always), one starts thinking they are the only one who should be here – that is when the problem starts.
typical. its this sort of slow-thinking attitude that makes real change even at home difficult. for all the talk of advancements and economic booms, vast, vast majority of south asians are left out.
its not elitist, despite people thinking they are elitist, its plain ol selfishness.
very very sad. people who should know better thinking this sort of tripe. and yet, they themselves are bewildered when americans and europeans treat us all like shit, and the few who are/become affluent, think they are treated differently. ha! and we do it to ourselves.
i have been around expatriates my entire life ina lot of diff. communities in west as well as non s.a. countries, though i am not one (figure that one out clever clogs), and this bulls$%^& makes me hurl now as it did then.
very sad.
just remember this, if u arent a citizen, i.e. gc holders and work permit and investor visa, ur ass can be hauled off without any frigging rights. they wont care what degree u have, or who u know at the consulate, or who ur uncle is back home. this is no diff for MIT grads, or watch seller, or pan wallah in jackson heights.
smoke that.
While I’m hesitant to humor this statement at all, I will say this:
I may choose to be a member of the AAA, I may choose to be a member of the AA, but I sure as hell didn’t choose to be a member (citizen) of the USA.
I was born this way.
Ah come now, if you hate it here, don’t pout, Just don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
😉
HA, not bad!
If desis like me left you’ll cheer and you’ll shout Until all the white folk come and kick your ass out ‘Cuz it’s desis like me that fight for your rights The right to be dumb and pretend that you’re white!
ok, PropaMcGandhi, i have decided not everyone is a complete ass thanks to u and a few others who seem to be a few of the more tolerant/normal/rational of the lot.
keep it up, fight the bigot, not all that is dull and dark is coal, sometimes,
its just scared and slow witless wonders scuttling in the dark. ok, ok, that was mean, we should respect everyone, and their point of view, no matter how silly. so sorry,i didnt mean to say, not saying who, that some peoples are a bit slow.way to go dude/dudette/person/it.
=)
Those certainly aren’t my rights for which you fight Perhaps you have delusions of being a caped crusader this night, Caught up in your own tangled web of strange logic You are no crusader but a failed comic
Ok, please, no more! This is hurting me both as a fan of poetry and as a fan of rationality.
This is discussion is pretty funny. A bunch of desi Americans talking about illegal immigration from Mexico.
In reality illegal immigration hurts poor, low-skilled Americans (largely non-asian) whose wages have now been driven down due to competition from even poorer Mexicans and it helps the generally helps America’s capital class who can now afford to be slightly more labour intensive.
This type of replacement fair in the sense that it is meritocratic, but it drives down wages and decreases the level of equity within America.
This is a zero-sum game in the short term (perhaps also in the long term depending on level of educational achievement).
You have to choose wether you care about poor, low-skilled workers who currently live in America or poorer, low-skilled workers who don’t live in America.
funnee isnt it, some complain if others come in the country legal or otherwise, saying it takes away jobs of the poorer classes, which is true since someone must have been doing it before, i.e. oranges got picked in fla and ca, lawns got mowed, dust got blown, chinese food got delivered, flowers got sold..
but also, some others complain if people stay at home an do the jobs, i.e. auto manufacturers going to mexico, callcentres going to not only india and asia, but also some weird ass remote parts of ireland and iceland and who knows where.
so which is it some people want, people come in to do the jobs, or jobs go out to where the people are. either way, jobs WILL be taken out of the hands of americans. this is what is called, globalisation, and a free-market system. if they dont like it, they shouldn’t have been shoving it down our throats all these decades.
u cant send ur lawn to be mowed in mexico or chile, but u can and do send ur taxes billing and meatpacking and auto manufacturing, and maybe even the chips in mcdonalds get cut in mexico, and the lettuce picked in ecuador.
no use bitching about it. this train has left the station. its about time others in the world had a go at living it up, or,living at all in many peoples cases.
beef-eating-atheist-hindu, heh heh, it couldnt be funnier what u said, u should see the sorts of comments on other blogs with predominantly white readers/commentors on the very topics we rant about here. ther eis a huuuuge divide.
OR you can choose to care about open markets where employees and employers find agreeable terms to work/hire. Unemployment is fairly low, and with a net influx of immigrants WILLING and happy to work at low wages, and employers who want to keep their prices down for their businesses, it works out pretty well. If the demand didn’t exist, there wouldn’t be a market for it. Just like the ‘war’ on drugs. This is a demand side issue. So trying to stifle it won’t do jack, only create alternate methods and inflate the market. Markets get corrected, even labor markets.
The funniest things I ever saw was a FOB speaking fluent Spanish to Mexican customers in a 7-11, yet having issues and stumbling with English. Apparently, he spent a few years down in South America on his way up through the border.
I’m not choosing and I don’t care if you say I have to! I care about everyone. Do you not?
PMG
I meant who do you care more about. There are some people I care more about than others
In the short term one of the two groups will get screwed. In the long run we are all dead.
GujuDude,
I guess you envision a free market ‘utopia’ like Dubai, or Singapore ? That could never work in a country like America where the offspring of immigrants can become a citizen with voting rights just by being born on the land.
Whenever you have Ethnic Group A which is a small proportion of the population but controls greater than 50% of the wealth and Ethnic Group B that makes up more than 50% of the population but controls less than 50% wealth.
If both groups have voting rights, chances are that Group B will vote itself all kinds of privalages and favoritism and blame Group A for all of their problems. Or even worse rise Group B will rise up violently against Group A. Gujaratis in Uganda under Idi Amin are a good example of Group A, look what ended up happening to them. (other examples Tutsis in Rawanda, Indians in Burma, the Jews in Germany, the Chinese in Indonesia etc)
I don’t think libertarians understand that economics is a social science. There is no easy solution to the problem. Leftists don’t understand that the government can’t play Robin Hood for everyone and still have a healthy economy. Populists don’t understand that you can’t just isolate yourself from the world as it will eventually catch up to you.
There is no easy solution to this problem.
Personally I think America would be better off taking the Canadian approach at this by luring in a vast surplus of accountants, doctors and engineers from around the world, then once they are in the country, make them to work silly jobs that have nothing to do with their education.
The risk of an uprising in Canada will mitigated by greater classd mobility of the decendents of the immigrants (educated parents will pust their kids to become educated), and by the multiethnic makeup of the new group.
Sorry I disappeared – it was late and I really needed to get some sleep.
Vikram (#30):
Ok, my apologies for skewing the definition of immigration laws. I was trying to distinguish between laws which govern entry into the US for working/living/visiting purposes and laws which govern entry into the US vis. security. I think this distinction is important because I’m not suggesting an open borders free-for-all where there are no border checks and anyone can come and go as he/she pleases.
The term illegal immigrant applies to people who enter the States in order to work and support themselves and their families. This term does not apply to terrorists (most of whom get in legally).
Eliminating the notion of illegal immigration empowers these immigrants by giving them legal rights, through which they have more bargaining/organizing power and the ability to unionize. This will benefit the American workers who are now losing their jobs because immigrants’ labor won’t be so cheap any more. The idea of illegal immigration benefits the business class, and creates a rift between two groups of workers.
Vikram (#33):
Thank you for condescending to Imagine.
Most countries don’t, in fact, protect their workers adequately, and even if they wish to, free trade agreements tie their hands when it comes to passing and implementing strong labor protection laws.
People (and by implication the knowledge that goes with them) are the only resource I’m talking about.
Intellectual property rights are held by individuals and firms, not nations. Because of the TRIPS Agreement in the WTO, these intellectual property rights are enforceable across WTO member states. If these firms’ and individuals’ rights are enforceable where they go, what’s the problem?
Why should only capital be fluid? Why can’t labor be fluid as well?
Southie-Dadi:
I’d rather answer personal questions off the list – would you please e-mail me at the address linked above?
Dave —
You state, apparently in response to comment #9:
Well, text accompanying footnote 45 simply says the following:
Which in turn cites to Geoffrey P. Alpert and Mark H. Moore, “Measuring Police Performance in the New Paradigm of Policing,” http://www. bja.evaluationwebsite.org/html/documents/documentI.html (last accessed Dec. 17, 2003), whose link appears to be broken right now.
How does this bare assertion about a concert series in one published report thereby become the “fact” that Miami is a good example of community policing more generally? Maybe the original study tells us more. I sure hope so — otherwise, it’s a rather sweeping and questionable empirical claim on your part, at least based on the slender basis to which you point us. And as hinted at by the original comment to which you are responding, there is plenty of convincing evidence suggesting a dramatically different view. As recently as October 2005, the ACLU noted that
Maybe you’re right and everyone else (including the Department of Justice and the Miami Herald) is wrong about the Miami Police Department. Or maybe things are improving. But either way, I hope you have more to support your assertion than one study discussing a concert series.
I certainly don’t see it like that. What I care for is everyone’s right to live with dignity, regardless of which side of a border they may live on. What I do not care for is some people’s desire to be greedy. To horde wealth, resources and power while ignoring the suffering of others. I don’t care for that one bit.
AK, thanks for the comment! The concerts were included in the report as a good example of community policing in action. The suggestion was made that the concerts would help improve relations between the police and minority groups, not eliminate all problems in the department. I can forward you a copy of the study if you like. In any case, here is the relevant section:
Madurai Vivekan (#66)
Oh really ? I certainly don’t think this guy owned the technology he developed and was trying to sell, though you and he may think so. There is something known as “national security interests”, in case you are not aware of that fact :
The government has the final say on the export of technology/manufacturing and ownership, regardless of which individual or firm develops it. Your idealistic global model is not grounded in reality.
Cesar Chavez was adamantly opposed to illegal immigration. He knew that if rich American landowners had an unlimited supply of cheap Mexican labor, they would never invest in labor-saving technology, safety materials, or worker protection.
It seems odd to point this out, but let’s refamiliarize ourselves with some basic supply and demand. If you allow more cars into the marketplace, their price will fall. If you allow more fruits and vegetables into the marketplace, their price will fall. Yet, if you allow more unskilled laborers into their marketplace, somehow, we illegal immigration apologists believe that the price for unskilled labor will not fall. So, we wail at the how the working poor cannot seem to get a leg up, yet we will not turn off the spigot of unlimited unskilled labor.
Also – Mexico is not a poor country. The average Mexican enjoys a better standard of living than the average Indian. Illegal immigration allows a corrupt Mexican gov’t to ignore the social safety net for their poorest citizens. While tall, light-skinned Mexicans enjoy a first world standard of living, their shorter, darker, mestizo neighbors have to run all the risks of getting to America for a livlihood. Mexico earns as much foreign exchange from remittances sent by illegals in the U.S. as they do from their oil industry.
A number of American-based Indians complain about the caste system back in India. yet, we are recreating a caste system here in the U.S., where certain jobs are deemed too lowly for us, so let’s just bring in a bunch of poor Mexicans and pay them a pittance.
Relying on remittances is no way to develop an economy. In 1991, during Gulf War I, thousands of Gulf-based Indian laborers were stuck without work, and the Indian treasury was nearly out of money, since they were not getting cash from these laborers. This was the starting point for Indian economic reform.
Robert Samuelson of Newsweek/Washington Post put it in far better terms than I can:
We Don’t Need Guest Workers
Some quotes:
“Since 1980 the number of Hispanics with incomes below the government’s poverty line (about $19,300 in 2004 for a family of four) has risen 162 percent.”
“What we have now — and would with guest workers — is a conscious policy of creating poverty in the United States while relieving it in Mexico.”
“It’s a myth that the U.S. economy “needs” more poor immigrants. The illegal immigrants already here represent only about 4.9 percent of the labor force, the Pew Hispanic Center reports. In no major occupation are they a majority.”
“Business organizations understandably support guest worker programs. They like cheap labor and ignore the social consequences. What’s more perplexing is why liberals, staunch opponents of poverty and inequality, support a program that worsens poverty and inequality.”
Vikram (#71):
uff – of course where national security and the military are concerned normal IPR rules don’t apply. Of course it’s up to each state to provide for national security. These cases of international espionage seem to demonstrate that states seem incapable of doing this under the current system.
Let’s look at the amount of labor and the number of IPRs floating around in the world. An insignificant percentage has anything to do with national security. You’ve brought up an important exception, Vikram, but you seem so fixated on national security that you refuse to look at anything else…
I’ve answered each of your questions but you haven’t answered mine:
Why should only capital be fluid? Why can’t labor be fluid as well?
KXB,
Thanks for the link to the Robert Samuelson article, it was an interesting read.
Samuelson says: “We’ve never tried a policy of real barriers and strict enforcement against companies that hire illegal immigrants.”
IsnÂ’t this the problem exactly? We spend so much time blaming the people that cross the border that we forget about the companies and governments that, with one hand beckon them to do so, and with the other slap them when they do. The dark not-so-secret secret is that there are certain parts of the United States (big cities especially) that run off the labor of undocumented (call them illegal if you must) migrants. Why are we spending our energy blaming the migrants? They are only coming here for a better life for themselves and their families, just like your mummydaddy did not so long ago. Have you forgotten?
Samuelson says: “Economist Philip Martin of the University of California likes to tell a story about the state’s tomato industry. In the early 1960s, growers relied on seasonal Mexican laborers, brought in under the government’s “bracero” program. The Mexicans picked the tomatoes that were then processed into ketchup and other products. In 1964 Congress killed the program despite growers’ warnings that its abolition would doom their industry. What happened? Well, plant scientists developed oblong tomatoes that could be harvested by machine. Since then, California’s tomato output has risen fivefold.”
This seems to be an important point. It’s not just ‘them damn immigrants’ (TM) that are taking our jobs, it’s also ‘that damn technology’. Technology should go back where the hell it came from!
Madurai Vivekan (#71):
And how would your “open borders, open employment/export” system protect against such scenarios ? To say it is “up to each state to provide for national security” is a blanket cop out, because you do not provide for any form of security in your global model.
Because citizens of a country do not like being treated as interchangeable resources that can be swapped in and out at the whims of a nebulous global world state. Funny how proponents of this “brave new world of globalization” are turning back on the concept of the respect for the human component of what makes every nation unique. And your proposal destroys any concept of attachment of an identity to a nation and a people. People are not swappable cogs in this big conveyor belt machine that moves resources and materials around the world. The collapse of the Dubai Ports management deal is an example of what will happen if this idea that any industry can be owned and run by anyone and people will sit around and let it go on unchecked.
?
port was being managed by the british, er, well, british company, and no one has problems. dont confuse issues. the fact that the ‘new’ foreign management company was an arab one, a state owned arab one at that, was the problem, not their foreigness.
and people are regularly changed as cogs in a machine all the time all over the world. anytime macys decides to switch from a bangladeshi garment manufacturer to a chinese one, it happens, or when ford gets the car bumpers from mexico instead of canada, it happens. likely the computer u are typing on is a product of some point in the manufacturing where the “F” key maker was cheaper in ireland then maybe in singapore.
its a globalised world, capital can change borders, and thereby, so can poverty.
i think the trouble is, some of us have a very much more global perspective, maybe due to selfinterest, or the fact, well, we’re just like the companies, dont particularly care where we go to make the life and living we want. some others are stationary in one location, and very much more affected by local environmental and social factors.
so, in my case, if there is less poverty in mexico for the non-european mexicans, then great, about time they lived better lives and owned dvd players and , oh yeah, fed their families. if that means some others somewhere else have to do without their cars and amenities that most of the world doesnt enjoy, oh well.
welcome to a global economy. human capital ‘is’ fluid, one way or another, not completely freely, but fluid nevertheless, even big oil pipelines leak drops in the desert. the issue is with people who want things to be exactly their way. well, the companies like walmart and the paultry industry dont care, the people with nannies and nice lawns dont care, and the workers dont care, if others are bothered.. too bad.
Ofcourse this policy is never implemented. Which politician wants to see soccer moms go to prison over hiring illegals ?? So its a non-starter.
Now blaming those who are coming is EASY, because the politicians KNOW that any REAL measures such as the above are not going to happen so just to feed on people’s xenophobia, they can create the issue.
Other important and BOTTOM line thing is that business community doesnt favor these type of measures and Business community gives the most money to politicians.
… which should tell you that things are not quite so seamlessly “plug n play” as globalists would like to you believe. People and nations do obviously attach strategic identity to certain resources.
Yes, and my point being when the corporations are anyway finding their workers outside US borders, why should the borders be opened up ?
Ah, and here I was under the impression that true socialistic altrusim was your motive for making this a “open bordered workers’ paradise” for the illegal immigrants. 😉
The US would be better off deploying Predator drones on its borders than in Iraq.
I can just imagine the command for the Predator drones that you’d like deployed…
See darkie = BOMBS AWAY!
Taking self-hatred to a new level!
Ok, so let me get this right…. Having the Minutemen patrol the border is bad. Having the US government patrol the border with technology that can enable it to watch the border with fewer border security personnel is also bad ? If the government were more aggressive about doing what it should have done in the first place, we wouldn’t create a siuation where groups like the MMP would gain support. So in your opinion what exactly should be done to patrol the border ? I’m waiting to hear your answer, not some dumb knee jerk idiocy.
Oh and by the way, it looks like they are already using drones on the border.
no, no, PropaMcGandhi, u have this wrong, this would not be a problem as the drone controlling jobs would be outsourced to, yup, u guessed it, south asia.=)
its only a matter of time when its cheaper for illegal immigrants and s.asians to volunteer fot the MM then bigoted ol whitefolks.
so:
see dixie flag = crash
v., dont kid urself, its all self-interest, enlightened or otherwise. u coined the liberal/socialist/tree-hugger on others. i’ve been saying its pragmatism and reality.
I was just making fun of you. The substantive points, which many of us have made, have been totally ignored by you. The point isn’t what kind of drone (human or otherwise) the US is using on its borders. If they want a drone, they might as well put you on the border. We’ve been criticizing US policy that encourages undocumented border crossings and then punishes the people who do so.
“undocumented” ? I see, so you prefer that euphemism to “illegal”. Answers the question as to where you are coming from…
Vikram (#75):
How about you show me a fool-proof way to ensure that national security secrets are kept absolutely secure under the current paradigm of global capitalism, and I’ll show you how to incorporate it into my model. You brought up that incident of espionage, so clearly this fool-proof method doesn’t exist now.
So are you saying that capital shouldn’t be fluid as well? Because certainly, the fluidity of global capital perpetuates American cultural hegemony in various parts of the world. But unless you oppose the fluidity of global capital as well as the fluidity of labor, you’re being completely hypocritical – you’re essentially saying that people should be rooted to their own countries and wait for MNCs to come in, exploit them (because of the weak labor laws in these countries), and change the local culture in the process.
PropaMcGandhi (#79):
PMG, I’ve agreed wholeheartedly with the points you’ve made, but I have to nitpick about the use of the term self-hatred. I think it’s thrown around way too easily by right-wing religious nuts as a way to try and silence and discredit anyone who opposes them.
Maybe I am a right-wing religious nut 😉
Madurai Vivekan (#84)
I thought the point of your global model was to propose a new scheme entirely that would do away with anything the current paradigm follows, including security ? Nothing can ever be 100% perfect but the open borders model is akin to saying “burglar alarms have failed to protect homes 100%, so they are totally useless and you are better off leaving your homes unlocked”
I don’t have much to add to this debate, but I wanted to mention that security “threats” don’t only come from OUTSIDE the border. Remember Oklahoma City??
Or perhaps even a COMBINATION of threats from OUTSIDE and INSIDE the border….
If the link doesn’t work, here’s the article from the Google cache:
Please tell me you don’t seriously believe this… I’m being PUNK’D, right?
I am not saying that I agree or disagree with her since I haven’t read her 7 year long research and 2000 page report. Here’s a Salon article on Jayna Davis. There is a definite possibility that White extremist groups are cooperating with Muslim/Arab terror groups with the philosophy of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”. McVeigh had links to white supremacist gangs. One of the core criticisms of US Intelligence agencies after 9/11 was their “failure of imagination” in being able to connect seemingly unrelated clues. I wouldn’t be so quick to brush off any theory without a strong counter argument and research.
I honestly don’t see where you’re trying to go with this. What does this have to do with what has been discussed previously? All I was trying to say was that, in your previous posts, you act as if everyone outside the national border is ‘our’ enemy. This obviously isn’t the case. You only seem concerned about violence by ‘them’ against ‘us’. Why not violence by ‘us’ against ‘us’? And how did border security become such a paramount concern in your mind?
Um… and where were you going with your Oklahoma City bombing reference ? And my response to your reference is that border security threats can be intimately tied with internal security threats. Perhaps you have forgotten about the Ahmed Ressam ? That was a thwarted because of a sharp border customs agent. It is not just the Mexican border that needs to be policed better. In case you have forgotten, this thread started with a discussion of border vigilantes and border crossings and posters implying that somehow people crossing the border are just all coming here for a better life. My rebuttal is that border security has far reaching impacts on the security and economic stability of this country. Obviously you think otherwise.
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