Because torching a fast food joint is the best way to protest a cartoon (via the BBC):
Angry demonstrators protesting over Western newspaper cartoons satirising the Prophet Muhammad have set fire to a KFC outlet in Pakistan, reports say.
Police used batons and teargas to break up the demonstration in the north-western city of Peshawar…Hundreds of protesters are said to have torched the KFC outlet and ransacked it.
An eye-witness reports:
“Fire is still raging from the KFC,” resident Tehseen Khan told the AFP news agency.
“I can see smoke coming out of the windows, the furniture has been gutted.”
To be fair, the protests which go down almost every day in Pakistan are usually less violent, but unfortunately, that’s about to change:
…(the demonstrations) are getting bigger and angrier as Islamic opposition parties begin a rolling campaign of protests ahead of a visit by US President George W Bush at the start of next month, she says.
No word yet on whether the Colonel was injured.
Ronald wasn’t spared either, still managed to hold that smile though
Are you sure you’re doing the right thing in repeatedly running the line generally taken by mainstream Western media outlets in relation to these protests, ie that they’re all just one big overreaction to a bunch of racist cartoons?
It seems to me that many protesters are actually generalising their anger from a specific reaction to the cartoons into a broader reaction to the “West”. It’s quite obvious from the placards and pictures of the demonstrations that they are about a much longer list of grievances than just the cartoons, including Israel’s role in the Middle East, Western powers’ violence against geopolitically strategic Muslim populations, the Eurocentric “superior Western values” discourse, etc.
Whether or not the demonstrations have been useful and productive is another issue, as are the questions of who is sponsoring them, and how these super-conservative Islamists get to claim they are the authoritative spokespeople for Muslims around the world. But really, these protests are not just about the cartoons, and this disparaging tone of “look at these silly, angry Muslims” is not much chop, and frankly, just repeats much of the uninformed reporting carried by indignant broadsheets on a daily basis.
I dont understand what burning down U.S based businesses(ie: Holiday Inn, Citibank, McDonalds, Pizza Hut and KFC) and U.S flags has to do with a Danish newspaper printing a inappropriate cartoon.
I was reading an article that stated “where intelligence officials suspected outlawed Islamic militant groups incited the violence to undermine President Gen. Pervez Musharraf’s U.S.-allied government. An Associated Press reporter in Lahore saw crowd members who appeared to be orchestrating the attacks, directing protesters — some of whom were carrying containers of kerosene — toward particular targetsit was a normal rally/march until the extremist started directing the crowd into violence. “
It seems that anything and everything that happens will turn into anti-U.S protests. Even if the U.S had nothing to do with it (this time).
I also enjoyed this article about other religions being made fun of
brownfrown, where have you gone? these threads scream out for your well-articulated points and biting wit.
In a previous thread zfr. made a poignant statement which I was disappointed to see no one engage with:
They have a massive protest planned on Mar 3.. If I am a Christian in Pakistan living near Christian schools/ churches I’d be taking safety measures..
It is funny to see these guys burning the “assembly building”.. When all the legislators are themselves supporting the protests..
…and this just in
No question politicians have been fanning the flames, but an underlying concern is – why is it so easy to do this? Politicians in every country are up to tricks of all sorts. I doubt they would succeed in whipping up such a frenzy. This article from the Telegraph talks about the culture of hate that has become the foundation of Islamic societies. In such an atmosphere it’s easy to stir up such passions.
We were brought up to hate – and we do, By Nonie Darwish
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/02/12/do1205.xml
Clash of Civilization is ON !!! This is just chapter 1.
Our guys in marketing just told us to start advertising “frame broiled chicken” in place of our usual murgha pakora. If life gives you lemons …
As if more learned Americans can distinguish between Arab Muslims and South Asian Muslims…
What a bunch of ingrates! How soon could these thankless people forget the tremendous outpouring of emotional and financial support from the Western world in the aftermath of the deadly earthquake? Talk about biting the hand that feeds one.
“As if more learned Americans can distinguish between Arab Muslims and South Asian Muslims…”
When Westerners start setting them on fire, then that might be an apt comparison. Right now, it’s a minor matter. Considerng that Islam encourages its followers to disregard the ethnic and linguistic differences among Muslims, shouldn’t Westerners be commended for being ahead of the curve on this?
I think a more appropriate analogy would be Westerners torching the embassies of Muslim countries in retaliation for 9/11, 7/7 etc. Along with large-scale riots attacking Muslim-owned restaurants, businesses, etc — and an economic boycott of countries like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and so on.
I’m just giving an example — I don’t support the above, obviously.
Considerng that Islam encourages its followers to disregard the ethnic and linguistic differences among Muslims, shouldn’t Westerners be commended for being ahead of the curve on this?
Actually, Westerners who do it are especially foolish because they only serve the cause of Islamists by lumping all Muslims together. Granted that Islam has no particular aspiration to pluralism, but pluralism among Muslims still remains an empirical reality. It’s important to fight Islamists by also opposing pan-Islamism whereever we see it – by drawing distinctions between the traditions of an Arab Muslim or an Indonesian Muslim or an Indian Muslim or whatever (even though with modern identity politics, this remains a long, uphill battle).
So much so that it is part of foriegn policy. The outrage is shown not in western streets but in Iraqi homes.
My stand is that both sides (western and radical Islamists) are getting rhetorical mileage out of this. The westernes can demonize whole Islam and justify their stand on “war on terror”. On the other side, violent Islamic protests are cliniclaly planned and orchestrated to draw more people to radical Islam.
As somebody said – This is just Chapter 1.
In Islam the West sees a challenge to its very foundation and in the West, Islam sees a challenge to its very foundation. May the side which most honestly espouses freedom and respects our fundamental rights be left standing.
Grab your popcorn and enjoy the show……
This talk of civilizational clash reminds me of that saying by that very wise indian – kyapata – who spake the timeless caveat – “do ki ladayee, teesra ki jeet” Whether the “teesra” is the Indic or the Sinic man is anybody’s guess. My rupee is on the home team
This is all reductionist horseshit. This has been going on for thousands of years. More accurately, a small number of Muslim and Christian wingnuts see the ‘clash of civilizations’ story as a path to money and power and flog it with astroturf ‘riots’ and rant blogs.
If the jihadists somehow win the “struggle” against the West, it would be very naive indeed for anyone to assume that they will not subsequently turn their attention to the rest of the planet. Plus OBL has already openly said that he regards India as being an enemy nation.
Unless the idea of living under Islamic rule somehow appeals to you, in which case we are obviously on opposite sides of the argument.
Jai, Quit being an alarmist!
The only clash of civilization is the one in your head. The one you want to see is not going to happen.
I dont know wheter to be annoyed or appalled by your gloating. It indicates an unclean perspective on life and society. On my part, I think the conversations in the west have been cathartic and I have been so delighted by the communities engaging in honest debate. Clearly people, at least in Canada, are not taking a hands off approach t othis. I’ll highlight this link again. Do take a chance to hear/read the people who called in to this show.
What makes you think I “want” to see anything of the sort ?
Because of your over estimation of the jihadists and their plans.
Also, I was speaking hypothetically. There is no way any group with jihadist tendencies could win — they underestimate the resourcefulness of the West and, more pertinently, the lengths they would go to in order to defend themselves if matters reached that kind of extreme.
The first Indian casuality of this episode is Sudheer Nonia Jagannathan, who was beaten to death by his colleagues (no brownie points for guessing their religion which the TOI has not mentioned).
The Indian press, as expected, has curled itself into a fetal position regarding the whole episode. Not one publication has had the courage to re-print the cartoons.
If anything else, this episode has given fillip to Islamist forces who don’t want democracy in the middle east. “See…this is what will happen when you have democracy, free-press, freedom of speech etc etc. Our religion will be reduced to a parody.”
As someone else on this thread said: Sit back with your popcorn and enjoy the long show which is just begining, and will last for decades if not centuries. And try not to have front-row seats – you might accidentally catch friendly fire.
M. Nam
There is no way any group with jihadist tendencies could win — they underestimate the resourcefulness of the West and, more pertinently, the lengths they would go to in order to defend themselves if matters reached that kind of extreme.
There is no movement to take over the ‘West’. Even the jihadists are not planning on taking over the ‘West’. Go to jihadist websites and see what they want. Listen to OBL’s speeches. This Jihadist wanting to take over the West is a ridiculous proposition peddled by the beneficiaries of the Military Industrial Complex and blood lusting chicken hawks who want to be the arm chair generals of a never ending war.
Well, 3 major terrorist attacks here in the UK have been foiled since last July. Also, we have some openly-jihadist groups here who are quite happy to appear on the news and state their support for OBL etc, not to mention the same groups involved in the frankly-treasonous protests here in London about 10 days ago. The reality of them achieving their aims may be overestimated, but the exact nature of their ambitions is not.
Assuming you live in the US, you are lucky that the Muslim population over there is a hell of a lot more educated, successful, and integrated than a disproportionate number of their counterparts on this side of the Atlantic. So, unfortunately, perhaps Indians living here in the UK have a slightly different perspective on these matters.
In any case, this still doesn’t mean I “want” to see any kind of major West vs. Islam “clash of civilisations”. I’m not the one who posted messages on this thread gleefully telling others to “sit back and enjoy the show”.
Moornam: Can I borrow your half pants?
Hmmm….I don’t think anyone on this particular thread has any RSS tendencies…..
I would rather take some pro-active steps so that the world is not hijacked by extremities.
A quick update on the situation in Canada for a different perspective – two publications in Calgary (where else!) have printed the cartoons, despie the fact that the rest of the national press has decided not to. The Muslim community in the city, though livid, has not gone on the offensive by trashing the offices of the publications – they are taking the matter to the courts. No clash between “Islam” and “Western freedoms” in this case :p
Jai: You are right. I attributed Expose’s remarks to you. My bad!
Well, 3 major terrorist attacks here in the UK have been foiled since last July. Also, we have some openly-jihadist groups here who are quite happy to appear on the news and state their support for OBL etc, not to mention the same groups involved in the frankly-treasonous protests here in London about 10 days ago
Yes, but these are irritants albeit of murderous capabilities. They have no ability, capacity, willingness, followin to take over the West.
Assuming you live in the US, you are lucky that the Muslim population over there is a hell of a lot more educated, successful, and integrated than a disproportionate number of their counterparts on this side of the Atlantic. So, unfortunately, perhaps Indians living here in the UK have a slightly different perspective on these matters.
I cant disagree with that either. I have been to UK as I went to school there for a year. The Muslims there are pretty fucked up in general. They are infinitely more conservative than the people in the countries they/their parents came from. They are still living the life which existed in Mirpur in 1952 or Silhet in 1953. They have actually become even more conservative because now they are becoming Deobandis, Wahabis though they were Sufis, Barelvis, or plain old South Asian hanafis back in their homeland or their parents homeland. Also a lot of the Pakistani Muslims are from Mirpur and the BDeshis are from Silhet, the two most backward, conservative areas in Pakistan and BDesh respectively. I was frankly appalled by the living conditions, style of dressing, mannerims, views and ideas expressed by people living in Bradford/Bolton/London. My interaction with the Paki/Bangladeshi Muslims was pretty minimal though. I did see visit with my relatives who are mostly Indian British Muslims. I thought they were more like the Desi Muslims you see in the US.
Al Mujiheed Debauchery Cartoons Dude,
Jai’s blood-pressure goes back down to normal
I was wondering what was going on 😉 Come on man, you should know me better by now, predominantly from my posts here on SM but also to a lesser extent from Pickled Politics too.
You’re right about Indian Muslims here in the UK generally being less conservative; numerically there are far less of them than Pakistanis & Bangladeshis, of course.
The “Arabization” in recent times is something we’ve all talked about before both on SM and PP; it’s interesting that some of the most radical and trouble-making imams here are actually of Arab origin, yet their followers are drawn mostly (but not exclusively) from British Pakistanis. You can see what is happening here.
half-the-story.
The publisher of the Western standard, Ezra Levant is a nutjob – a right-winger who’s run afoul of the Conservative party.
Common outlets for the paper – I believe Indigo and indie shops and Mcnally book stores have banned that edition from their premises – mind you Heather Reisman and Gerry Schwartz, the power-couple behind Onex (Gerry) and Indigo/Chapters (Heather) are Jewish. One owner of the book shops came out and said – i paraphrase – “i believe in free speech. but the cartoons are everywhere on the web. for us to carry these would be inflammatory and do not serve any informational purpose”
It isnt about the canadian muslims being nice in Canada. Everyone’s playing fair and demonstrating good sense which is all fine by me mate.
It’s stupid for western standard to go out and do it. To echo what i heard on radio from a U Calg prof that there is a difference in free speech and damn it, we’ll do it because we can. if i were in calg. i’d be cancelling their subscrption right now.
The Indian sailor incident is reprehensible, and the perps will definitely face charges of cold-blooded murder.
But, freedom of speech or not, you know that publishing the cartoons will cause riots in India (and more than just the headquarters of the Old Lady of Bombay). Do you really want the press to fan the flames of communalism? There’s idealism (I am a libertarian too and I believe in free speech etc.) and then there is realpolitik. Do you want more people to be killed in Indian cities just based on a stupid cartoon?
to continue my thots from #37, I attended the online panel hosted by Doug Sanders in the G&M – whose writing i adore – that one of the reasons this has got out of control is because the imams , somewhat disingenously took the original offending cartoons into the islamic community ANDDD… a couple of others which were very offensive… including one portraying the Prophet with a pig’s snout nd committing sodomy… heck… let me just do the needful.. here’s the link and the excerpt
Moornam- I don’t see WHY news publications in India ought to re-print the cartoons and stir up trouble. India does not have the same culture of free speech as in the West (there’s an understatement)- self-censorship/respect when it comes to religion is quite common and widely accepted as necessary for maintaining the peace.
As for Indian news publications censoring religious identities while reporting, it’s just pointless and stupid because EVERYONE still knows who did the killing and who was killed. I remember the old “member of the minority community” news items in ToI. Like no one knew what the minority community was. It’s just another way to keep the peace and there’s a nice sentiment behind it (however silly and ineffective).
After reading some of the comments in this thread I am reminded of this
DDIA, let alone publishing the cartoons, the whole fiasco is being meagerly convered by the Indian media because it might unrest the minority sentiments (and I’m for that). But the same logic and approach is not used for other communities and is further exacerbated by free-speech/expression. Thats the hypocracy of Indian media which is troublesome.
” This has been going on for thousands of years.”
I couldn’t agree more, Manish. All I am trying to do is draw attention to and hoping to understand the cause of this ongoing, my god has a bigger dick than yours match. The difference between me and some of you, outraged at my remarks, commenters is that I do not share your optimism and I tend to call it like it is….unvarnished and politicaly in correct.
Note: My ideal world would be totally devoid of religion and god nonsense.
Note: My ideal world would be totally devoid of religion and god nonsense.
Well said, The place that was getting closer is Europe after fighting hundreds of years to show the Church its place.. But if the immigrants bring their “blasphemy” baggage, church is going to come back and it will be back to “crusades” and “jihad” again.. sigh..
To I_Miss_Brownfrown: Clearly you are my favourite 🙂 Sorry about the absence dude – I needed to take a post-thesis proposal break from the brown.
As for responses to this post – all this “Clash of Civilisation” stuff is too Huntington 101 for me. Aren’t we over that guy yet? This isn’t a sudden clash and these aren’t monolithic “Civilisations” lunging at each other – it’s an anti-colonial struggle. The same kind of reaction we had in, say, Algeria or any of those Fanon-inspired resistance/insurgency movements. It’s convinient to paint this as the secular, rational, democratic West (read: capitalism) against the dark, religious, backwards East (read Islam), but that’s too easy. This has less to do with god and more to do with good old oppression and imperialism.
Why attack American symbols when the perp is a Danish newspaper? Because boiled down to its elements, it IS an American hegemony that is behind the latest bout of colonial rule. This time, the semiotics are different, so the targets are different. There’s no point blowing up parliament buildings or I dunno, some battalion somemwhere because the real power rests with the MNCs. The KFCs, the McDonalds, Nikes, Wal-marts, malls, theatres, buy, buy, capitalism capitalism.
And capitalism, incidentally, needs a demonised “other” that cannot be given a voice in its own system, in order for it to survive. It used to be the commies. Now it’s the “Islamists” and things are slightly different; 1. The Islamists lack the capital to go about building nukes like the Russians did and 2. The primacy of nation has broken down. So not only is nouveau colonialism a global network with no discernable locus (hence the tying of Danish cartoons to American corporations) but the response from “Islamists” (god do I hate that word) is also wide, varied and international. Some of the tactics are crazy, extreme and violent. But a lot of what they are reacting to is also crazy, extreme and violent. (Anyone see those latest Abu Graib pics yet? I almost threw up my breakfast).
And Expose – maybe I’m picking on you b/c your post is right at the end and therefore easy to spot – but considering you’d like to be rid of all this “god nonsense”, that was a pretty heartfelt, hand-wringy post you had up about California texbooks getting all thier “Hinduism” “facts” wrong. What, some god nonsense is better than other god nonsense?
Bf: your linkage between Danish cartoons and American MNCs is as silly as the mass conflation of the ‘clash of civilizations’ narrative. And it’s the same ‘punish them all’ idea that lies behind American acceptance of civilian casualties in Iraq. In short, your argument hangs on the hook of self-contradiction.
Ha. Manish – I’m not saying that the link is particularly logical or effective. But if that’s the rationale, that’s the rationale. There is an undeniable urge in these situations to conflate the toys of the “western devils” and attack them all – do you disagree with that? Would I go burn down a KFC because some yahoo somewhere called me a Paki? No. But I have the luxury of being trained to “use my words”. In English. You try explaining the all the subtle variances between mid-western US culture and Scandanavian politics and Gaullic institutionalised racism to someone who doesn’t speak English, can’t afford schooling and who’s trained by a bunch of angry (and perhaps crazy) religious extremists. The link’s not mine – but it gets made and there is a certain method to the maddness.
Pakistan: Literacy: definition: age 15 and over can read and write total population: 48.7% male: 61.7% female: 35.2% (2004 est.) GDP – per capita: purchasing power parity – $2,400 (2005 est.)
USA: Literacy: definition: age 15 and over can read and write total population: 97% male: 97% female: 97% (1999 est.) GDP – per capita: purchasing power parity – $41,800 (2005 est.)
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/
Also, what about the economic boycott of France and everything French by the Americans in 2003? Alot of Americans are STILL boycotting France..
I should make my position clear. I am the one who used the phrase “Clash of Civilizations” in the comment section, and I must admit that it was an attempt to start flames. Sorry !! I dont really think that the whole silly thing about Cartoons is “Clash of Civilizations” at all. Infact the “violent protests” is like a walk in the park compared to a day in Iraq.
I am aware of Samuel P Huntington’s book about Clash of Civilizations I havent read the book, but have read the critic of it by Siva Vaidyanathan (I think) and I dont agree AT ALL with the book’s premise. But as several other commentor’s noted that both sides have interest groups who wish to characterize this a “Clash of Civilizations”.