I am a very patient man. Still, even I sometimes get tired of explaining to people who I am, what I am, where I come from, and what I am not. I found this on flickr, and think it would be perfect for those days when I just don’t want to go through the song and dance. It would make a great t-shirt:
ok so like here is the thing i changed the entire out look of the shirt… and i also change the bad grammar… secondly ok since everyone was having a superhard time tryin to figure out the whole area of grey. . the shirt is supposed to just be black on black.. so thus i chose dark dark blue that way you could get the entire jist of the shirt design
thirdly you all maybe flipping out at the last line.. so here it is… to me i’m not reffering to seperate state… i’m referring to justice that is long over due.. i speak of soverignity of mind body and soul…. thats what i mean by this and still if i offend.. oops
take what ever you want from it
ok apparently they dissabled the IMG SRC html.. so here is the link
Sameer – respectfully, I think that this is more a question of being sucked into a larger group for the sake of being “counted” as part of that group, and at the cost of losing your right to self-determination as a people. Someone saying strongly that “I am a Sikh, not a Hindu” doesn’t mean that they aren’t looking at commonalities and bridges between differences. But if you don’t respect me for who I am, and cast my beliefs, traditions, ancestors as a step-child of the majority, well, then we’re no longer on equal footing, and we can’t truly see eye to eye as people. Respecting difference doesn’t mean ignoring it. That’s part of the problem with American multiculturalism, as Vijay Prasad wrote somewhere. “Tolerance” isn’t enough for a heterogeneous society to grow together. We have to move to a place where we are recognizing and respecting that difference, and not just trying to bolster our own numbers for political purpose.
I get annoyed when I hear “Hinduism isn’t a religion,” and therefore all traditions that evolved from it are part of it. Tell that to the outspoken Hindutva crowd, or to the butchers of 1984, 2002, etc. I think that we’ve moved far from the roots of that philosophy, and refusing to recognize the self-determination of groups with centuries of their own traditions isn’t helping anything. Not to mention the way that Hindutva folks co-opt the more than 300 million tribals, animists, and non-Vedic believers in India as “Hindu” to bolster the nation’s total count of Hindus to the 800 – 900 million range. That practice is questionable at best, and probably far more egregious than what the more easily identified faiths can complain about.
yo – what’s up with the “i am not an illegal immigrant”? that’s wack.
b/c pple tell me to GO BACK TO MY COUNTRY…. you guys fail to realize that all these things that i wrote that i am NOT.. people have told me to my face and all other sikhs, that THEY ARE with hate and violence in their voices
TYPO
i meant to write… you guys fail to realize that all these things that i wrote that i am NOT.. people have told me to my face and all other sikhs, that I am (and we (Sikhs are) with hate and violence in their voices
Dude – I don’t think that it’s about some arbitrary legal status conferred by the government on its whim. It’s about xenophobia and racism, which have less to do with your status than they have to do with the nuts speaking to you. Weird way to show solidarity with other Sikhs by bringing up immigration status. Seems like you have other issues to deal with than just being mistaken for being something other than Sikh. Or are you saying that undocumented Sikhs aren’t really Sikhs?
here’s the thing, or one of them. far too often the Sikh community gets swept up in other communities concerns. Sometimes peeps need to just kind of get it that whatever else you might think, this Sikh community has been around for quite some time and it has a substantial history and present of its own. the community is continually getting marginalized and put into different categories by the whims of other concerns. Ok, man, you don’t like someone being called “illegal”. good thought. But, try to stick to the point here, the Sikh community and what its particular situation is. If you want to help, it occurs to me, there’s quite a bit one could do to help the Sikh community deal with the issues before it, without always saying; yeah but…
Uh, so you’re saying that immigration status and bias in the West isn’t a “Sikh issue?” I think that’s pretty ill-informed. Not to mention that I think that the Sikh community seems to have done a pretty good job of watching out for its own, and it seems weird to try to distinguish that the community “has been around for quite some time and it has a substantial history and present of its own” and that it is “continually getting marginalized and put into different categories by the whims of other concerns” and then turning around and based on what I presume is status privilege, just marginalizing other members of that same community.
That’s the point. We can debate whether groups should form coalitions some other time. But what about your own backyard?
It is amusing to see the horror that this has caused in some people like dhavaak – I think it says more about their prejudices than anything else.
Given that Gurvinderpal has stated the prejudice that he has to face day in day out ranging from misidentification to outright violence and being told to return to his ‘own country’ simply because he follows his religion by wearing a turban, I am astonished at the heartburn and sullen psychosis this seems to cause in some people. I am amazed that something produced in the spirit of proclaiming and educating has caused a nervous breakdown and offence in people. You don’t have to respect the choices and trials Gurvinderpal faces day to day – fine. But don’t go mouthing off and whining about what he should do or not do about what is a fairly harmless and t-shirt about an individuals experience.
It becomes hard to see where the borders between arrogant fecklessness, and intolerance begin and end in such people.
rage
No problem, I should thank you. Your post is really enlightening.
I agree with the anti-RSS statements and to some degree advocate the same stance for the Shiv Sena party. To the Hindus and the Muslims this picture means nothing nor should it. To the Sikhs, especially the Male sikhs with visible turban, the visible difference leads to the ignorant people pointing their finger – whether with curiosity or hatred is a different matter.
The question “what religion are you” or the more demeaning “what are you” arises with the unaware Western societies. To which it should be perfectly acceptable for a Sikh to claim that he or she is a Sikh, neither Hindu nor Muslim but a Sikh. Despite similarities or differences between the three religions, there is a word that exists called Sikh (n) – a follower/believer in Sikhism. Similarily there are surprising similarities between the People fo the Book religions – Judaism, Christianity, and Islam; yet, all three faiths claim to be unique and profess superiority over the other two.
The picture and the t-shirt should not be grounds for any argument as claiming yourself to be a Sikh is a personal matter. RELIGION IS A PERSONAL MATTER. When further asked by a ignorant Westerner about “who” or “what” you are after explaining to them you are Sikh, simply tell them “grab a book on Sikhism, a dictionary, and read up. Call me when you wanna discuss it.”
The truth of the matter is that Sikhs living in America or England and the USA are very diverse in their observance – ranging of course from Panjabi MC style cool dudes to fully practising Amritdharis.
Some people stop wearing the turban for any number of reasons. Maybe they no longer believe in Sikhi. Maybe they do it to escape from some of the pressures they face in society. Whatever – people are free to do what they want.
However, despite all this, if there is a Sikh who decides to maintain his customs in the face of all the low level pressure and prejudice, in fact if he is emboldened not to cave into that in the light of his experience, and he decides to make a t-shirt as a statement of his experience, rather than slander and slur him or call him as ‘pushing it in people face’, I salute that man for sticking to his beliefs in the face of those difficulties. I admire him. I support him. The sullen bigots who weep and moan and call him this and that – well, they can go and pick their nose and grumble in the dark.
sphy versus sphy those are good points
That’s a classic line if ever I read one.
Sahej: thanks.
Amitabh in # 21 –
You couldn’t be more wrong. An overwhelming majority of Sikhs who visit Hindu temples do it for the sole purpose of worship and not for any cultural experience – whatever that means? I urge you to visit Vaishno Devi and interview any turbaned Sikh you encounter. Short of that you could agree with me. And if you are ever in the San-Fernando Valley in Socal, do visit the Lancashire Gurudwara and chat up some of the younger Delhi Sikhs – You may be pleasantly surprised to find out, how little punjabi they speak. And in any case, I don’t get what being fluent in punjabi has to to do with being a Sikh?
well, perhaps i am a shit stirrer. but, to elaborate
1) the shirt said ‘i am not a hindu.’
2) i had assumed sikhs were not hindu based on my reading.
3) but i have seen comments here by people who talk as if sikhs are hindu.
4) sometimes what is written and what is practiced differs.
5) also, there was an article years ago i read by a girl from jersey city whose father was sikh and mother hindu and what she wrote implied that there was barely any difference between the two (obviously biased by her personal experience in a mixed family). i also know that sikhs left pakistan for india during partition, so they had an affinity for hindus vs. muslims, i assumed.
6) as a non-religious person living in a world where most people are religious i make sure i know what religious people think about their own religion so i can engage them in their own terms.
7) of course, this gets complicated, because religious people disagree about what it means to be “X.”
8) but, i got what i wanted out of this thread insofar as all the sikhs seem to be reaffirmed that their religion might have affinities, both fundamental and cultural, with hindus and hinduism, but they are a separate faith. some hindus seem to want to disagree, but oh well, my general heuristic is to follow the assessment of those who avow a particular ideology/religion over those who don’t. ultimately, when it comes to religion i’m a nominalist. so, in practice, this thread simply means that if someone asked me if a “sikh was a hindu,” i’d say, “no.”
that is all.
as for my intelligence, once reason i know what i know is because i ask rather than assume 🙂
To the creator of the T Shirt – “I am not a Afghani” ? Afghani is the Afghan currency. I am assuming you meant to say, I am not Afghan. In that case, what about Sikhs who are from Afghanistan? They are Afghan.Right?
“Sikh are kesadhari-Hindus. Their religious source is Hinduism. Sikhism is a tradition developed within Hinduism. Guru Granth Sahib reflects Vedantic philosophy and Japji is based on the Upanishads. Unity of God and casteless society etc. was also preached by other Vaisnava Bhagats.” — Khushwant Singh, in an interview.
khushwant singh is a writer, not a religious scholar or religious authority.
i won’t even get into his adherence to the sikh faith…
here’s a page which uses sikh scripture to delineate how exactly the sikh faith is distinct in the totality of its basic philosophy from the hindu faith: http://www.sikhs.org/relig_h.htm
hope this helps some of you out.
Guess, Khuhswant was ok when he stood up to Indira Gandhi for the Sikhs during the “Khalistan” era. And when he condemned operation bluestar [rightfuly so].
Wow – just click on Dissent’s name and see where the link takes you. Disgusting. I am sure we can all guess what fetid pit and political creed he belongs to.
These are the real shit-stirrers. Razib has shown he has credibility and sensititivity and understanding.
This topic seems to touch on Sikh sensibilities. A number of respondents are Sikhs. So, it is perhaps, not out of place to ask this question. What is the attitude of Sikhs towards “Sardarji jokes”, especially after 1984?
khushwant singh spoke out after 84. good. that still doesn’t mean he is a sikh religious authority.
Prem – I clicked on Dissent and do not see the “shit stirring”. It is childish, I give you. But “fetid pool” it is not.
I guess the main motivation for this T shirt was to explain to westerners that Sikhs are NOT Muslims/arabs because thats what they are often confused for (I dont think people might look at a Sikh and confuse him for a hindu). In that respect I guess for some white boy who is reading this slogan, you might even have to explain what Hindu is, since most of them are as blissfully ignorant about hinduism as they are about sikhism and all the other expressions (terrorist, camel jockey etc.) are self explanatory
well my mom’s side of the family is from Afghanistan. so i’m techincally half afghan. Also my dad is hindu so tech i’m half hindu too… but well with God’s Grace i’ve become a Baptized Sikh, thus by taking amrit i’ve burned away all types of proir labels… thus just being a sikh.
Prem, when you visited my link why did you assume that I endorse it?
I am not an authority of Sikhism, but I’ve heard that there is no mention of the prophet Mohammed in the Guru Granth Sahib. Read this article for some interesting facts.
It is very funny and strange to me that a thread I started to talk about how I sometimes get frustrated explaining to people what I am and what I am not turns into precisely the sort of tiresome discussion where people keep insisting that you are not what you say you are.
Dissent, you seem to be arguing in bad faith. The article you link to has the following purpose:
That is, it is designed to explain that Sikhs are neither Hindus nor Muslims. You are using it to argue that Sikhs are not like Muslims, therefore they must be like Hindus, which is baffling.
Honestly guys, this is getting quite tiresome. While I’m happy that we’ve been able to have this discussion without much name calling, I think we’ve covered all of the basic points here, and no one group is going to convince the other that Sikhs are or are not really Hindus or Muslims.
well this is a hymn By teh 5th prophet of the Sikhs….
ਕੋਈ ਬੋਲੈ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ਕੋਈ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥
ਕੋਈ ਸੇਵੈ ਗੁਸਈਆ ਕੋਈ ਅਲਾਹਿ ॥
Raamkalee, Fifth Mehl:
Some call Him, ‘Raam, Raam’, and some call Him, ‘Khudaa-i’.
Some serve Him as ‘Gusain’, others as ‘Allaah’. ||1||
He is the Cause of causes, the Generous Lord.
He showers His Grace and Mercy upon us. ||1||Pause||
Some bathe at sacred shrines of pilgrimage, and some make the pilgrimage to Mecca.|
Some perform devotional worship services, and some bow their heads in prayer. ||2||
Some read the Vedas, and some the Koran.
Some wear blue robes, and some wear white. ||3||
Some call themselves Muslim, and some call themselves Hindu.
Some yearn for paradise, and others long for heaven. ||4||
Says Nanak, one who realizes the Hukam of God’s Will,
knows the secrets of his Lord and Master. ||5||9||
hopefully it be a goodwayto finish off this thread
As a baptised Sikh you have to abstain from meat, intoxicants, pray every day
OKK…someone help pattie out here, pplleaase. i am confoooosed! i know a few very faithful, baptised sikhs who do eat meat. i also know some who are NOT baptised who don’t eat meat. i had also read that what IS avoided is meat ceremonially prepared. so i know for when i take amrit, wether or not i have to give up meat. thanks folks.
ok so like about sikhs and the issuse of meat.. i’ll the simple noncontroversial verison. For a sikh there are many rehats one can follow the bare minimum is the Rehat Mariyada, which was drafted in the early 1900’s by the SGPC. now there are stricter rehats like the Damdami Taksaal Rehat you can look at Sikhnet’s where Yogi Harbhajan Explains it is really one’s sikh’s personal choice how they wanna go at it.
Well, my comment about Hinduism not being a religion was not to argue that “all traditions evolving from it are a part of it”. In fact my argument is communities who have evolved out of Hinduism have asserted themselves as “Religion” (organized or otherwise). So in the “counting how many of you are there” or about “labeling” context, all the rest who hadn’t joined any of these traditions (mainly Bauddha, Jain and Sikh) have been labeled Hindus. My point was at no point in the past before Islamic invasion was there an identity called “Hindu”. There were only different sect. In his treatise on Bramhasutras, Shankaracharya (probably the greatest authority on Hindu philosophy) analyzes several prevalant opinions including some which didn’t accept authority of vedas (like paarivrajiks) or some who were pure materialist (chaarvak) etc. So “Hindu” as it is used today is only a convenient label. I agree that Sikhs are not Hindus, neither are Buddhists or Jains. The origins of these religions are in their break-up with the traditional religion.
What RSS is doing is simply (and unfortunately) an extension of what Islamic invaders did. They are perpetrating and reinforcing a label, that we didn’t give ourselves in the first place. It is outsiders who gave me my label has a Hindu. In the viewpoint of traditional religion I can only belong to one of the many stream of philosoply (vedic, non-vedic, vedantic, sanhya, yogic etc).
I guess another point I wanted to make was that we should try more to remove the labels. But instead all we are doing (even if we are tolerant towards other labels) is simply reinforcing and protecting our own label as it were.
gurvinderpal,
thank you sooo much for sorting that out for me! you basically confirmed for me what i was thinking, but i’m glad to know that i was on the right track. btw, was checking out your flicker album…very cool indeed. i’ll have to stop by again.
Hmm. It’s hard to take you seriously as you pontificate about “removing the labels” when you repeatedly write “Islamic invaders” in reference to a significant piece of Indian history. Seems like you have your own issues to work out there, skippy.
Expose
It is a childish fetid pool.
Huh? You are finding contradictions based on your own assumptions.
I still dont see what you are working up a sweat about. Desis already know that Sikhs are a unique culture. I thought this whole thread was about letting westerners know that. If you let them know that the Guru Granth Sahib does not mention the prophet Mohammed, they’ll appreciate your difference with Islam better, dont you think?
Prem, on closer scrutiny, you will notice that the book does seem to be reporting just what is written in the Koran and the hadiths. Nevertheless, a whole book with caricatures of the prophet would still be considered blasphemy. But I am guessing most mutineers would support it, since it is factually sound. My only objection to it is that the facts are taken out of context.
I don’t see how reference to historical event(s) undermines my opinion/desire to remove religious labels. By that logic, simply refering to Colonial British govt. would mean antipathy towards British people as whole. So yes, Islamic Invaders (take it literally, people who were followers of Islam and who invaded India).
Sameer – even so, you’ve postulated the creation of Hinduism (through contact with an other – that of Islam) long before the start of Sikhism.
Yaar this thread will never finish
What do Sikhs think of Sardaji jokes? What do you think? Its an ugly thing, and thats simply obvious. People who do such things are not displaying manners or respect
I don’t think it would make a good t-shirt. Too complicated and takes too long to read. Perhaps you should go for something more succinct like:
I am NOT a muslim terrorist I AM A SHIKH YOU IGNORANT MOFO (http://www.sikhs.org/)
I am NOT a muslim terrorist I AM A SHIKH YOU IGNORANT MOFO
i prefer
” I’m not the mirror who casts a broken reflection. Do refrain from your jealousy of my crown.”
Nice, Pattie! As for Bengali and others, you misunderstand my meaning. This isn’t about distinguishing myself from Muslims, it’s about not wanting to explain who or what I am to everybody who asks. Believe it or not, I get Hindu far more often than I get Muslim. And given some of the responses here, it seems that I need to wear this shirt around desis as much as I do around goras.
You will read the writings of (not ‘about’, however) Kabir, Farid, etc., and you’ll read references made to Allah. The scripture is focused on God, and one’s connection with God, or developing one. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib praises those who have been so lucky to reach enlightenment – but to specifically focus on certain people would limit how those reading might interpret the paths available to them. In my opinion at least.
Nice, Pattie! As for Bengali and others, you misunderstand my meaning. This isn’t about distinguishing myself from Muslims, it’s about not wanting to explain who or what I am to everybody who asks. Believe it or not, I get Hindu far more often than I get Muslim. And given some of the responses here, it seems that I need to wear this shirt around desis as much as I do around goras.
ahh, thanks dear, that one came to me whilst making supper last night. lol. also, it sounds less agressive! 😉
that reminds me, i’ve been aching to put up new shirt designs, so i’ll add that to my group, after i get a decent image to match it.
Ennis – dude, you wear that t-shirt around and, like bong breaker, I will diss your spelling and bad grammar. That’s worse than being a terrorist.
Thanks 😉 I’ll be sure to clean it up first. I wouldn’t want my friends to start drawing red and green squigly lines on my shirt while I’m wearing it 😉
Ennis: once again my apologies, I should not have said what I said, please forgive and forget. My thing is that I don’t undertsand these charges of Hegemony, and this feeling of we are Sikhs and you are Hindus. Coming from a family where a clan amongst us is Sikh, while the others are Hindu, I could never make sense of this. All the Hindus I know have a healthy respect for Sikhs, many a times that borders on great affection. The same is true of the Sikh people I know. I liked the picture you posted since it seemed capable of dispelling American ignorance. I guess I was wrong to think of it in only that way. Your comment section makes it abundantly clear, that Sikhs feel that their own identity is under threat, and that somehow Hindus are to blame. I am sorry that so many people feel this way.After reading all these comments, I realize that I may have lacked sensitivity, but my intention was honest. I sincerely hope that both the Sikhs and the Hindus feel a natural kinship and not be threatened by each other’s existence.I see no reason for things to be otherwise.