A couple of you (thanks Eric) have sent us an article out today in the New York Times that follows up on the incident of the women police officers beating up on canoodling couples in an Indian park. At first I hesitated to even blog that story because it seemed like on of those “only in India” type off-beat news stories. Apparently though, it has caused a national uproar:
From the political right and left came condemnation of the police action. Brinda Karat, the most prominent woman representing a coalition of leftist parties in government, denounced the police for pouncing on courting couples while violent rapes remain unsolved. Sushma Swaraj, a legislator from the Hindu nationalist opposition Bharatiya Janata Party, took the podium in Parliament and called it a product of “a sick mind.” [Link]
Former SM pin-up girl PG writes not about the story, but about the headline of the article in the New York Times:
This appears to be the rare occasion on which I can criticize the NYT’s India coverage before any of the bloggers at SM does.“Is Public Romance a Right? The Kama Sutra Doesn’t Say”
has got to be one of the stupidest Orientalist headlines I’ve seen on the Times. The actual content of the story, written by Somini Sengupta with additional reporting by Hari Kumar, mentions absolutely nothing about the Kama Sutra.
Well PG, with Manish (our anti-Orientalist headline critic) out of the country we are glad that you caught it. I wonder if the Times keeps stats on whether it gets more hits on news stories that have “Kama Sutra” in the headline.
From the same article: Even so, the reprimands did not stop Hindu radical activists here from storming Gandhi Park three days after the episode and, taking the law into their own hands, beating up the small handful of couples who had dared to return. The following day, Gandhi Park was empty, save the birds chattering in the trees.
It laughable to see the Hinduvta crowd co-opting Islamic/Victorian values and conflating them with ‘Hindu values’.
Also from the same article: Getting up from her bench, Priyanka said she walked in the direction of the commotion when a police officer, Ms. Gautam, as it turned out, pounced on her and accused her of being a prostitute. What is more, Priyanka said, the policewoman slapped her and called her a “chamari,” a slur based on her caste. (Ms. Gautam denied making the remark.)
How did the police officer find out by pouncing on Priyanka that she was of a lower caste? Hopefully the police officer got charged with assault/battery for slapping the girl.
Ha, fat chance.
I just don’t get the mentality of these Hindutvadis (or anyone else) who go out of their to beat up couples. Coppers like to flex the muscles, but regular citizens taking time to knock about couples – the mind boggles. Let’s say, for example, I HATED clowns. I wouldn’t go to circuses and start beating them up, I’d just tell everyone they’re scum. What actually motivates someone to go and assault people who are actually very similar to them? People may say it’s the same mentality as lynching of black people etc but this seems so weird, in today’s time.
Couple of things strike me here 1) The valuation of private/public space 2) The role of love/desire in popular media. Cambridge University Press put out a volume (here) looking at some of these issues from a historical perspective. I spoke with one of the authors (Perveez Mody) at a seminar once and she had some interesting things to say about the way love, especially in the context of marriage, is still largely perceived as a threat to the stability of caste/class lines.
They’re fighting a losing battle (the conservatives, I mean). Indian society is inevitably heading to sexual openness at least in relation to before. I think the process will be complete when the people who actually DO indulge in ‘non-traditional’ sex (pre-marital, for instance) actually be able to talk openly about it, and also stop being hypocritical about it themselves. I’m sick of the typical “pre-marital sex is ok, but I don’t/won’t do it”, or the “pre-marital sex is wrong in general, I did it coz I was REALLY in love” statements I keep getting from Indians of my generation.
I actually thought the KS statement was a bit tongue-in-cheek. Again, feel free to accuse me of being an ignorant FOB who has not read enough Said, but it does have a point. The very existence of the Kama Sutra usually ends up being evidence for liberals of early Indian sexual openness, and many conservatives virtually consider it an embarrassment and aberration in Indian culture. But in this case of “public romance”, that kind of KS-justification does not exist, so Indian liberals have to find some other basis for arguing why public romance and how much of it should be allowed. The usual argument of “even the Kama Sutra and images on ancient temples show this” doesn’t quite work.
If only the Kama Sutra were always consulted for other forms of modern Indian … ummm … extracurricular activities. That’s a pretty daft headline alright.
I love it when guests pull my copy of the Kama Sutra out of the bookshelf and discover (to their dismay) that it’s all words, i.e. Vatsyayana translated, instead of pictures.
I don’t think beating on couples is so much a Hindutva thing, as much as it an anger management problem. All violent people are not religious fundamentalists just as all fundies are not violent. However, extremism does tend to attract people with issues.
Maitri, you said exactly what was on my mind… had I not refreshed the page before including my comments, we would have two comments with exact same intentions!
It’s not the government’s job to police private behaviour. Here’s a related incident…
M. Nam
Sure Maitri, that’s why I said anyone else. But it’s undoubtedly been the religious right/Hindutva brigade who’ve been leading the moral police’s renewed fervour in India. A large proportion of Muslims have been conservative for years. But it is in recent times that Hindus, previously predominantly laissez-faire, have found an element within them galvanised to the SINFUL YOUTH! They’ve taken it upon themselves to prudify India.
What I mean is, people in positions of authority have been doing the same things for a long time. But the general public getting het up over kissing couples AND ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING is a new phenomenon. In the past they would have scolded and tutted…or called the police.
If only the Indian police force worked as hard to actually protect and serve Indian citizens…that would be a nice change. And policewomen are worse then their male counterparts; they have no sympathy for women who come in to report sexual harassment. They will still ask you questions about what you were wearing as if that has anything to do with it.
Moornam: There is a lot of scientific research out there which has conclusively proven beyond a nano doubt that homosexuality will lead to the destruction of any society. So the government should prosecute these sodomoties to the fullest extent of the law.
*I meant sodomites.
AMFD:>>Moornam: There is a lot of scientific research out there which has conclusively proven beyond a nano doubt that homosexuality will lead to the destruction of any society. So the government should prosecute these sodomoties to the fullest extent of the law
You’re joking, right?!!
M. Nam
No, I am not kidding nor will I ever kid about something which can/will destroy America. Here are some tips which will help you if you have kids.
I hope to uncover everyoneŽs inner Orientalism critic.
Then for a sequel I’ll publish a novel called Hullaballoo in the Mango Grove. There will be hennaŽd hands on the cover. I’ll claim the publisherŽs art department overruled me and commit hara kiri with a Persian samosa.
These people are acting like some morality police from Saudi Arabia or Iran. And the mad police woman – can you imagine how frustrated she must be? Put a petty failure in a uniform and look at the petty tyrant that comes out. Would it be sexist to say that she needs to get laid?
Pablo, I agree. (and no, it doesn’t sound sexist since it was exactly what i thought too of how to calm the woman officer’s frustrations.) there must be a few hundred different outlets on how to efficiently use their time rather than heckling young lovers in a park. personally, i wonder why they felt the need to harass young college students rather than chasing hardened criminals. what are a few innocent kisses and pda action in public?! the irony of it is that little is done about the filmi business which seems to show more eyebrow raising flesh yet people passively watch. (it’d be nice to see a film with quality content and plot lines rather than quantity of vapid actors and actresses parading around with no clothes on, but that’s just me.)
i’m skeptical about whether these “values” that they try enforcing could be claimed as hindu or otherwise, since it seems to be more of a societal issue of rigidity rather than reading into the philosophy. don’t they have bigger fish to fry? pansies.
AMFD:
I have debated before that sex with any person other than one’s opposite-gender spouse is destructive to society.
Having said that…I disagree that it is government’s job to handle societal issues. Government’s job is to make sure that nobody violates anybody else’s rights. Two gays in Lucknow do not violate my right. So the govt. has no right to act against them. Same goes for the lovers in the part in Meerut.
M. Nam
Can you imagine how bitter and twisted their souls must be, full of envy, to see young men and women holding hands, in love, flirting? Rotten to have nothing but bitterness in your heart like that.
Moor Nam
You’re not kidding! This is the title of your essay:
Dont hold back man! Tell it like it is!
Pablo,
I did not write the article (although I wish I did!). I only commented on it.
M. Nam
Pablo…ahh…i could suggest some Stevie Wonder songs to get ’em in the mood — “you are the sunshine of my life”, “cherie amour” — better yet, some Isaac Hayes. yeah. that’s enough to melt any postal worker on the verge of a breakdown. 😉
as for premarital sex….gasp 🙂
(maybe not so)random question: how many babies are born per minute in the world?
Moornam: I was of course kidding about homosexuality. I am presuming you did not click on my tip.
You have confused me though, as I am not sure if you were kidding when you said this, I have debated before that sex with any person other than one’s opposite-gender spouse is destructive to society.
How far the times editor will go to make headlines juicy? Seriously.
For the record, people who have not clicked on my tip, I was only mocking the Christian Right and apparently the Muslims for their views on homosexuality. I guess its only funny when Stephen Colbert mocks the religious right 🙁 Shout out to all the Colbert Report fans!
I’m so torn: While I bow down to Edward’s Said scholarship and output…I also find it hard to fault lazy media that makes reference to the Kama Sutra, therein presupposing and reinforcing my supposed sexual prowess by virtue of ancestry.
And it’s not often I laff out loud while read Sepia but today was such a day:
God, I wish I knew how to quit you!
here, here for the Colbert report. the link had me on the floor, debauched one.
Pre-marital sex is ABHORRENT. Soon afterwards, I found myself developing chancres and boils all over my body. My testes fell off and I began to grow a hump on my back. The poor
girlvictimco-sinner soon died a horrible, painful, lonely death. The sin itself was a distressing, un-Godly experience. O Lord, why did I stray from your path?Kids, DON’T DO IT.
I’m enjoying reading this thread. Please continue.
Premarital Sex – a Cancer to Desi Civilization
The traditional Hindu arranged marriage system presupposed a YOUNG marriage…nowadays parent’s expect their kids to get an education, and then a graduate education, and then a job, before settling in the the sub-casted, gotra- and horoscope-compatible mate of your choice. Its no wonder that the traditional system is failing miserably. People are not meant to go sexless until 32 ( and they’re not; they’re groping women on buses and visiting prostitutes). This is not to say the western system where losing your virginity at 15 ( American average) is optimal, but Indian culture will need to accomodate overt premarital sex in some way.
When are our filmi copycats gonna cover Brokeback Mountain…The only man in Bollywood who’s got the acting chops to play Ennis Del Mar is Vivek Oberoi. You heard it here first, kids.
For those who actually read my comment: Which part(s) of it do you disagree with?
All (or at least most) of you are products of the lifestyle that I advocate – if anyone among you has parents who has slept with a person other than the opposite-gender spouse, please raise your hand.
M. Nam
Premarital Sex – a Cancer to Desi Civilization
Is the above a joke? or someone seriously thinks that Indian Civilization has a problem of premarital sex??
There is a lot of scientific research out there which has conclusively proven beyond a nano doubt that sex with any person other than one’s opposite-gender spouse is destructive to society. I encourage all young boys to take the Abstinence-Only Pledge so that the boy can his virgin penis for his future wife. For girls I recommend another version of the same Abstinence-Only Pledge.
Good point Eddie – just about ALL cultures have increased their average age of marriage as they’ve modernised. Men staying virgins until they’re 30 can frequently manifest itself in the behaviour you mention – groping up women and visiting hookers. Women have less trouble keeping their desires in check – but I would not want to second-guess what women think about pre-marital sex today. I personally think that both sexes are better off going into a marriage having experienced what sex is and knowing that they are sexually compatible.
At the risk of sounding crass, not having sex while you’re young is a tragedy. We have contraception these days, so there should be no taboo attached to extra-marital sex. The taboo comes from a time when sex = kids. SAFE sex is nothing to be ashamed of and I’m sick of people sermonising and making others feel guilty about something perfectly normal. No matter how much sex you have, when you get older (and I already feel like I’m in the older category) you’ll wish you had more.
Wrong forum for this discussion…
M. Nam
if anyone among you has parents who has slept with a person other than the opposite-gender spouse, please raise your hand.
I raise my hand sheepishly (sorry dad!) and I came out just fine except for this proclivity of mine for destructive behaviors like these.
AMfD you have all the cool links! I’m really trying to hard to figure out if that’s a spoof. I honestly can’t tell!
Ah, I’ve read the girls’ one. Nothing with this passage can be real:
Bong, I could be wrong but you may have stepped on a landmine here.
Come on Moornam. Just between us. Is BB right when he says:
In all honesty can you tell me that the various positions you have staked out in this forumn might not be a little bit more, relaxed shall we say, if your youth had been a bit more…licentious? Do I presume too much? 🙂
Only posting this because Abhi deserves the courtesy of a reply…
Maybe. Maybe not. But if I were relaxed, then I wouldn’t add any value to the discussion, would I? I would just nod my head vigorously to everthing that’s being said. Where’s the fun in that?
I come on this forum (as many others) to learn and teach. In this respect, I don’t think any of you can teach me something that I don’t know. However, Anna’s Friday contest – that’s something else!
M. Nam
Moornam: Dude, I am only kidding with you. Its all in good fun.
Abster (that could be an exercise machine), I did actually type something else after that phrase you’ve put in bold, to explain a bit – but deleted it in order to be more concise (I figure the shorter a comment, the more people read it). I just mean that women don’t violate men when they’re feeling horny anywhere near as often as vice versa. When I say ‘violate’ I don’t mean rape in this instance, I just mean feeling up. Japan, India, Singapore, Iran – all different countries which look down upon pre-marital sex (with notable pockets in the community being exceptions) and all have a culture of girls getting groped by guys in the tube/bus etc. This is a whole different issue and of course there are biological differences between how the sexes manifest their libidos etc etc.
Don’t take anything I say too seriously right now as I’m high on some weird energy drink and exhausted having just been to the gym for the first time in months.
I like your last line Abhi!
I am proposing that residents around merut to create a new festival. a large number of couples should march onto merut public park next year on that date and start making out. Its public defiance ofcourse. Another advice for the up delegation for 26 January floats is to have a reanactment of the मोटी भेँस slapping girls. Some one will need to stuff their pants with pillows for that.
Guru Gulab Khatri, hear hear!! I take it you saw the video.
Man what shit was that – and something almost scarier was how out of tune the police was with the rest of humans in the country when it hatched the plan. Evidently they brought a news crew along to give them an exclusive of police cleaning up the parks of amourous indecency and hence earning kudos. And the fked up bch polices joked and slapped girls on camera. I mean how inhumane is the law-order enforcement entity that it would completely misjudge the impending reaction when planning their atrocity! And it to me raises a few other disturbing observations – that police doesn’t have the balls to go after criminals, so takes it out and feels good after abusing lawful citizenry. To think that the SP and other officers planned the event instead of reducing crime and corruption in the city is terrible.
Indians are terrible hypocrites when it comes to sex. Indian tv/films are one step from full on nudity, and many steps ahead of anyone in the world on suggestive visuals. Yet in Meerut couples dare not hold hands in public! Daing! There needs to be real legal payback to such taliban behavior.
By the way women sleep around as much as men. (Indian men love to think otherwise.) Premarital activity is almost equal, but females sensibly lie low and say nuffin’. If you have boarding schooled parents rest assured they have necked with the same sex. At least same sex pre marital necking does not produce kids. Usually in these parks, it is not handholding…. Perhaps the born-again American missionaries should enter Meerut and agree warmly with the local brahmins/mullahs/butchpolicewomen about the moral turpitude of today’s young. All warmly united in disapproval of their young.
When are our filmi copycats gonna cover Brokeback Mountain…The only man in Bollywood who’s got the acting chops to play Ennis Del Mar is Vivek Oberoi. You heard it here first, kids.
Actually, we heard it here first. Sepia volunteers?
Whats up with all the slapping ? The slaps were flying around like jalebis!
Hmm.. BB I like the way you think but I’ve got to get all Pollyanna for a second. I agree that premarital sex isn’t a sin and all sex should be safe but what about mutually respectful and caring relationship etc? There’s something to be said for the importance of emotional maturity when it comes to young people having sex. I don’t think the taboo only exists when someone gets pregnant (but I do agree women bear the brunt of the shame BLAH BLAH double standard).
And encouraging promiscuity as long as you use contraception is kind of a weird message to the kiddies, future Dr. Bongsie! 🙂 (And on a completely unrelated note, one day on peds we did adolescent medicine clinic and in preparation we were given complicated role plays and then interviewed by fellow classmates. My character was a 12yo girl whose boyfriend was pressuring her to have sex. I was being interviewed by my friend Dan and asked if he could write me Rx for birth control because “me and my boyfriend are gonna do it!” He said was I sure and maybe I should consider waiting.
R: “But why?” D: “Umm…because your first time should be special?”
Which prompted hilarious laughter from both of us. We both went on to receive very poor evaluations that day eg “Student does not take rotation seriously etc”)
Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in the Western world (I think, certainly Europe) and one of the lowest average ages of de-flowering (!). The area I did my O&G rotation was called Croydon, a dump in South London which has the highest teengage pregnancy rate and chlamydia rate in Britain. So believe me, I’ve seen the bad side to sex.
I wasn’t encouraging meaningless sex, I absolutely think that it should be with someone you care about (I’m not sure about having to love them) but I was just saying that I don’t agree with the concept of ‘saving oneself’ for marriage. If you’re going out with a guy/girl and you like each other and are getting bored of third base, go for the home run. If I married a virgin, I’ll feel weird to say the least.
My advice has nothing to do with my future profession Rupa! But as Khushboo tried to explain – facing the fact that kids ARE having sex and concentrating on making sure it’s safe is a lot more productive than telling them sex is a sin. That way they will still have sex, feel guilty about it and probably go into it without the education they need. Sex ed is shambolic in India. It’s not even that good here in the UK.
Of course you’re right that there is a taboo even without pregnancy (and almost wholly directed at the girl) but then…who needs to know? 😉
meh..premarital sex would just mean indian girls getting the same reputation as american girls. that is, being promiscuous whores. who wants that…all you’ll get in the end is a bunch of foreigners up for some sex tourism.
Gotcha. Was mildly alarmed when I first saw your message. Responsible sex: hooray for all parties involved. (And I was happy to learn that sex-ed is now in fact being incorporated into Indian curriculums — but it sounds like one big proselytization on abstinence, at least where my family lives. My 14yo cousin asked me if one could be impregnanted “by emotions.” In the what now?)