Dear () :
First, allow me to congratulate you on your excessively clever handle. Normally, I’d be jumping out of my chair like the little cartoon man who signifies “stellar!” for the San Francisco Chronicle’s arts reviews, out of appreciation of your FANTASTIC taste in music, but I am almost 99.9% certain that you weren’t paying tribute to a three-year old release from Sigur Ros with the whole empty parentheses schtick.
Second, allow me to even more sarcastically congratulate you on your attempt at incisive commentary, issued in support of the link you wanted to tip us to…ouch, I think it gave me an owie:
Islamic terrorists attack IISc in Bangalore and shoot a professor dead. Such beautiful gift from our loving South Asian brothers deserve a mention on this blog….or perhaps you’d choose to bury your head in the sand and pretend that this doesn’t/didn’t/won’t happen.
Not.
This trifling game is getting so old, I can pay a premium for it (still in the original box! mint!) on eBay. This Mutiny is brown. We like the term “South Asian“. We write about stuff that happens in the countries that surround India. We care. If you don’t, then that’s unfortunate. Getting snide in an ANONYMOUS tip isn’t going to change our minds, surely you had to be aware of that. If not, let this “musing” of mine clue you in: inclusiveness is how we roll, even though every one of our parents once had an Indian passport and exactly eight dollars in their pocket, upon landing at JFK. Speaking of that now legendary phrase–“eight dollars (in my hand)”– which my much-loved Father shouted on an every-other-day basis as a counterpoint to my spendthrift proclivities, my Daddy is the reason why I am a hard-core South Asian. Oh, and if you’re not sure what I’m referring to with my magic eight bawl, apparently my father (and several other Uncles etc) weren’t allowed to just stroll in the country with benjamins in their money clips. For whatever reason, my exhausted, anxious father had just that odd and small sum on him when he landed in New York, walked to a coffee shop in the airport, paid $0.50 for a single cup of kappi and then nearly fainted as one-sixteenth of his net worth left his hands in exchange for a tiny caffeine rush.
Two-and-a-half decades later, when he heard that I spent $2.50 on a cappuccino at Stanford, during a JSA one-day conference where I debated something foreign policy-y, he yelled at me for close to an hour about my extravagance, converting the sum to rupees and that most hallowed currency of all, the original eight dollars which created my family on American soil. “$2.50? $2.50! When I came to this country, I paid a fifth of that princely sum for a cup of coffee and my hands shook! Brazen girl! Are you the Maharani of Travancore? Have you no shame? Almost three dollars– for COFFEE! ende devam-ay, this one and money, it just falls through her hands…” 😉 I got a phenomenal Braun espresso machine for Christmas that year (1990), as my father grumbled that I would never get robbed for caffeine again.
Where were we? Ah yes, why my father made me a South Asian. When I was a wee thing, I got a globe for my sixth birthday from a very close Uncle. Fascinated, I noticed that there were “tropics” for both my and my father’s astrological signs, but not my mother or sister’s. I realised, for the first time, that America was a very big place. And I saw that India was very far away from San Francisco. My father found me peering at the “kite” and smiled with amusement. “What are you looking for?”, he asked. “Thiruvilla!” I exclaimed. Carefully, Daddy drew a tiny dot with a permanent marker, near the south-western coast of the kite. “There.” I kept studying, until I finally decided that India was a very big place, too. Daddy got a hazy look on his face and sighed. “It used to be even bigger.” Then he pulled me on his lap and told me about how maps were arbitrary and the lines which defined them weren’t drawn with the sort of marker he still held in his hand.
I asked him about my Montessori preschool teacher, who looked just like one of my Aunts. “She’s from Ceylon. She’s just like us. Remember when she came for tea? How it sounded like she was speaking Malayalam? She was speaking Tamil, which is one of the languages Malayalam is based on…Tamil is what your cousins in Madras speak, remember?” I wasn’t following. “So she’s Indian like us?” He replied negatively, but hesitated. “Not really. Not officially. Ceylon is a different country. But that doesn’t matter. She taught you the same way I was taught at Syrian Christian Seminary. She was tough and she understood that we appreciated that.” I glowered at him. When people at Montessori weren’t looking, she had pinched my ear once or twice, with my parents’ adoring blessing. “The thing is, edi…we are more similar than different. In this country, no one cares if you were rich back home, or if you were a Brahmin, or if you came from one side or the other of Punjab, because part is here in India and the other is there in Pakistan…you’re just a foreigner. Maybe your children won’t be considered such, but by then, who knows how many countries this will be,” he concluded, fingers lightly tracing the subcontinent. “Be proud to be Indian, but don’t think that makes you better or different from your teacher or your Uncle Nasir. They aren’t Indian exactly, but in this country, that doesn’t matter and it never will.”
:+:
Dear Santa, Gosh it’s good to be Orthodox. I get your full attention now that you’re done with that OTHER Christmas. 🙂
I haven’t published a “list” this year, but I think I know what I want: I want tolerance, respect and compassion. Musing all this blogginess has convinced me that THOSE are things I really could use. Sometimes, I feel like the random, mildly offensive Amreekans who compliment me on my flawless English are kinder than other brown people are, as evidenced by the SM tip above. I know it’s not kosher to assume things, because when you do, it makes a kundi out of you and me, but I have this suspicion that the person in the parentheses didn’t grow up here.
They didn’t know what it was like to be the only Indian, hell, the only Asian, fcuk it, the only non-white kid in school. They didn’t have classmates circle them and make “oooh-wah-wah-wah” noises by quickly touching their lips with their fingers, over and over again, in some horribly insulting mimicry of a misnamed kind of Indian. They didn’t walk a mile in my moccasins. So they don’t know where I’m coming from, just like I can’t even commence imagining what it’s like to walk a few kilometers in their chappals. I just think if you give me what’s on my Christmas list, this blog (ahem, and this world) would be an even awesomer place.
Also, if you could reclassify “sarcasm” so that it’s no longer naughty? That would be soooooo helpful, for both of us (less making a list for you, less items on it from me).
Oatmeal raisin and one-percent okay this year? I’m no Brimful, but I’ll bake them vs buy them, promise. Also? The fireplace isn’t real (there’s no chimney!) so just use the front door, yo.
Lowe,
A N N A
One day they will say Muslims are not our brothers – then it will be the Christian Indians who they want to hate on, then the Sikhs, then the Dalits, then the Tamils if they are from North India and so on and so on.
These people just dont get it – they are so crude and vulgar of thought and mind.
Blah blah blah blah. At the end of the day we’re all Americans, whether we’re Canadian or mexican. What’s an arbitrary line drawn across a map? At the end of the day we’re all white, whether we’re French or German, Aliied or Nazi, what’s a little skin colour there….oh…wait…this is Sepia Mutiny….but I assume the Sepia refers to a time period, ya know like sepia-tinted photos. Why stop at the Sepia colour. We are all great apes at the end fo the day. I recommend you really get politically correct, and rename this site: Additonal-Melanin-Coloured-Primates-From-A-Part-Of-Pangea-Mutiny. Why do you stop at Sepia. How dare you not include people from the rest of Asia. From the rest of Eurasia. From the rest of the universe. Why is your arbitrary separation more sensible than mine? Especially considering Pakistan & Bangladesh are only 50-something years old. India is far older.
As really difficult as this seems to be to comprehend – the Idea of India is a very very old idea, far older than you my dear. And it is not the prejudiced, exclude-the-muslims-and-pakis-type idea that some random commenters seem to believe. It actually does stand for something. It is a place of refuge, for parsis, for tibetans, for buddhists, for nepalese. It is a place where Hindus and Muslims, despite everything actually do live together. It’s a place which spawned at least 17 different reformist movements. Stop f-ing diluting my country’s name with a bunch of jihadis. And you’re right, Pakistani food IS very similar to Indian food….that is because it bloody well is Indian food, for [bad-word-for-fornication]’s sake.
http://25worldcountry.blogspot.com/2005/09/south-asian-my-ass.html
As long as Indians continue to look and and speak like Pakistanis it will be impossible for the average American to tell the difference between an Indian and a Pakistani.
Anna’s post and TTG’s response, illustrates that there is a difference between Indian-Americans and Indians. A failure to recognize this is usually the precursor to a full-fledged flame war. Differences between Indians and Pakistanis may not mean much in the American context as evidenced by the fact that many second-generation and even first-generation immigrant desis are happy to identify themselves as “South Asian.” However, I can’t think of many in the sub-continent who would identify themselves as South Asian. The differences which don’t matter in the American context do matter in the sub-continental context. If second-generation desis feel irritated by the failure of many recent arrivals to recognize the “American” component of their identity [I am not suggesting that Indian-Americans are schizophrenic in that they have two distinct parts to their selves:-)], then they should recognize that attempts to emphasize the “unity” of all South Asian identities can irriate many Indians/Pakistanis/whatever. Indeed, in the sub-continental context, the well-meaning (but silly) attempts of many Indians to emphasize the “commonality” between Indians and Pakistanis by saying that “there is no difference between the common Indian and Pakistani” usually provokes a violent reaction from Pakistanis who perceive in this an attempt to deny their distinct Pakistani identity and part of a grand “Akhand Bharat” [Undivided India] project.
Suresh.
Dude (TTG)
Don’t see what the point of this argument is. Identity comes from experiences and circumstances, and is impossible to change just by a debate.
Anna retains her identity of South Asian, and you don’t, you prefer to be Indian. Why the vitriol? Am I missing something?
Pragmatic or not, I do think that a pan-South-Asian identity is a noble ideal, and worth working for as much as reality permits. Which is why I like SM, despite being a FOB. It does not imply lack of a national identity. Being Indian would “destroy” my Bong or Guju or Tam identity (to speak of an analogy).
Not knowing what this spat is about, I think the term “Desi” is more all encompassing.
Yeah? I could ask you to stop f-ing with my identity, my processes of self-definition, my memories of my late father on this day when I lost him, just a few years ago. Where does that get us? I’m not trying to fucking dilute a damned thing, got that? And if that paki food which jihadis eat is so familiar to you b/c it’s INDIAN then guess what, those jihadis are Indian and part of your ancient concept, too. If you want to claim it, claim all of it. Where does this get us? Did you even READ the second part of my post? We are coming from wayyy different places, that’s why we’re never going to agree, that’s why the nastiness towards us is pointless.
Sigh. I was honestly hoping that I was clear and not offensive, I don’t want to be flambed, not today of all days. Did you read the second part of my post? If someone as nice as you didn’t understand what I wrote, bleary-eyed in the middle of the night/morning, then I’m fretful. This is what I was trying to say: I totally grok the huge difference between “them and us”, that’s why I talked about not being able to understand the other’s backstory, after not living anything close to it.
Thank you so much for being so diplomatic and kind with your words, I really appreciate that. I do recognize that our stance can irritate “them”. Do they realise the same? Are they tolerant enough to agree to disagree? Or is this too addictive and easy a meme to give up, since the rants which include possessive statements about anatomy are too fun to write? What kills me is this– do they think that we love India any less? That we aren’t as proud, that we don’t cherish her history and beauty as much as they do? Love isn’t a finite resource. I can love India AND still have some pink, heart-shaped stuff to spare.
If someone of Indian origin calls themselves “South Asian”, they have been successfully brainwashed by the campaign started by our neighbors in the “Indian” sub-continent region because of obvious reasons. Too bad they could not change the name of the “Indian” ocean in that region. As far as I am concerned there is only one landmass there and IT IS CALLED THE INDIAN SUB-CONTINENT. Anybody interested in the background behind how this “S A” moniker came should read Rajeev Sreenivasan’s articles in Rediff.
Anybody interested in the background behind how this “S A” moniker came should read Rajeev Sreenivasan’s articles in Rediff.
Can you please post a link to that article. Also are Rajeev Sreenivasan and Moornam the same person ?
Sorry about the small type in Rajeev’s name. Here is the link to that article: http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/mar/19rajeev.htm
They had eighty dollars? 80 dollars? I had twenty. Take that! Just beat that, will ya?
TTG,
Let people who want to call themselves South-Asian continue to do so. There’s no point in trying to convince those who have already made up their mind. Instead, it’s better to concentrate on those Indian-americans who have not formed their identity yet. The ones who are still in school or college. The ones whose minds can be molded. They are the ones we are working on, and changing their mentality successfully so that they don’t want to associate with anything Pakistani or Bangladeshi (Sri Lanka is just fine).
As for the South-Asians, unfortunately there will be many such IISc attacks to come. And as in the past, their Pakistani-American folks will do precious little to condemn it. Eventually, they may realise that Pakistani and BanglaDeshis use the term South-Asian selectively, when it’s to their advantage, and quickly revert to Pakistani-American or Bangladeshi-American when their purpose is complete.
AMFD:
Looks cannot be changed. Even speech can be changed little. But the thought process can be molded, which will help the average American to be able to distinguish us.
Our thought processes are very similiar (even though we have differences in our conclusions). I disagree with Rajiv on certain peripheral issues, but agree with him on the core problem.
No – we’re not the same person!
M. Nam
nope, EIGHT. as in single-digit. 🙂
p.s. thanks for being respectful while disagreeing.
. If second-generation desis feel irritated by the failure of many recent arrivals to recognize the “American” component of their identity [I am not suggesting that Indian-Americans are schizophrenic in that they have two distinct parts to their selves:-)], then they should recognize that attempts to emphasize the “unity” of all South Asian identities can irriate many Indians/Pakistanis/whatever.
I dont think one can assume that all 2gens self-identify as South Asians. I for one identify as Indian-American. This does not mean that I hate or anathemize Bangladeshis or Pakistanis or Sikhs or any of the other groups Jai Singh mentioned in his post. To me, if there is any home outside America, it is, and can only be, India. And this applies whether I’m in a night club in Delhi, on business in Mumbai or standing in an early morning cue with thousands of other pilgrims at the Sri Venkateshwara temple in Tirupati or at Sai Baba’s samadhi in Shirdi. The facile equating of “progressive” with South Asian and “Hindutva” with Indian-American is really unfortunate. And let us face it, there are political realities on the subcontinent which shape our perception. Its not for nothing that India is building a 2500 mile wall around Bangladesh, or why India and Pakistan have fought three wars.
IMO “South Asian” takes you a long way if you are in lecture/seminar circuit. So that is why we see that term mainly in academia, useless conferences etc.
What is odd is how come our Paki, Sri Lankan, Nepali brothers don’t like this term? I have in fact read in Paki newspapers that the term South Asian is coined by Indians to dilute “Pakiness” LOL. When the intended audience does not want to be any part of this South Asian orgy why some desi selfstyled intellectuals/writers/stuck-in-70s professors/stuck-in-my-dad-came-to-US-with 8 dollar bores, continue on using the term “South Asian” is beyond me.
Moor simultaneously feels mixed emotions: Self-superiority at having more money and self-loathing at the inability to read properly.
M. Nam
jeez, did I even read the same post as you guys? I thought it was another beautiful, touching moment of ANNA’s life that she chose to share with us. I love ANNA’s dad stories…everytime she shares another one, I am so moved that I want to call up my father and thank him for taking the risk and believing in his future enough to try moving over here, with one briefcase, one suitcase, and $100 (loaned to him, which he paid back, incidentally), for doing the best he could, for being who he is and letting me learn from him and his life.
us, them, blah blah blah. I thought it was a story written in love, despite inspiration from a tragic event. half-full, half-empty, blah blah blah.
“South Asian” is meaningless because we do not share the same basic assumptions about the democracy, civil liberties, the (lack) of a role of religion in politics, and so on. I speak specifically of Pakistan, and increasingly of Bangladesh.
Secondly, forget about India-Pakistan animosities for a while – it might confuse you with all that Hindu/Muslim stuff. Just consider Pakistan-Afghanistan. If you fully understood what has happened there, you would not want to stand together with a Pakistani on any forum.
I was smiling to myself until I read the other posts about pakis and indians and all that jazz. Honestly, when it comes down to it, does it matter how you are classified? You know deep down what you are and how you feel?
Take my example. I am a guju who was born and grew up in East Africa. I am now in the states, married to another guju who was born and grew up in America but who also spend a few years in India. What do I call myself? An kenyan of indian origin who is now living in America? Honestly, I don’t f-ing care.
This has been the story ever since I came here seven years ago:
Them: What part of India are you from? Me: I wasn’t born in India. I am guju but I come from Kenya Them: Wow..you don’t look African Me: No shit, Einstein. We brown people are like corn, we grow everywhere.
If I am to be branded Asian, South East Asian, Indian etc etc, I honestly don’t care. People can call me Pakistani and call me persian, whatever. I am a child of three worlds and I have taken the best out of all of them.
Anna, your story really made me smile. My dad grew up in Zanzibar and had to ride his bicycle to school for over 12 km everyday. I got the ‘Chokri! You waste so much money on petrol! story a lot. I think I am going to call him today. 🙂
People, some kindness and respect please, especially when you are visiting someone else’s home.
I started to write a long response to some of the comments in this thread, but in keeping with Anna’s relentless spirit of minimizing negativity, I have deleted most of it.
The one thing I still did want to respond to though is the objection in the Rajeev Srinivasan article linked above that South Asian or South Asian American identities undermine the idea of India as a “brand.” Respectfully, identity is not a “brand” that is “owned” by Mr. Srinivasan, the government of India, the RSS, or anyone else. Maybe this is too Kantian for Mr. Srinivasan, since Kant was from (gasp!) Germany, but none of these institutions or any other has the right to make any of us the instrument of their “marketing strategy,” or the marketing strategies of anyone who purports to act in their name. Our identities, our lives, and our experiences are not commodities. So if the South Asian American or Punjabi American or whatever-else identity of an individual or community of individuals, rooted in their values and lived experiences, undermines Mr. Srinivasan’s ability to engage in brand management, then too bad, so sad. In any event, it’s not as if India and Indian-ness are not things that Mr. Srinivasan or anyone else has any right to claim “ownership” over — they are a contested set of social and cultural meanings that are up for grabs every day, and always have been.
Anna, once again, thank you. There are few people who write as thoughtfully, as courageously, or as openly as you do, and all the noise aside, it is enriching for many of us when you do.
Anna can you(or Abhi) please also start protesting when people mention this site as Indian. A few weeks back there was a big news of Sepis’s name being mentioned in some political scandal in India and you guys posted about it here. But i didnt see anywhere in that post that you mentioned that Sepia was actually a SA site not an Indian one as mentioned in that news. Also it will be highly appreciative if you can have a banner on top announcing that this site is SOuth Asian not Indian. That will reduce the confusion for a new visitor of your site.
Thanks!
Bravo anna; I love reading your stories as well.
Like technophobicgeek, this FOB doesn’t understand what the point of the argument is. I embrace the idea of a South Asian identity. I don’t understand what’s wrong in celebrating what’s common between people of the subcontinent and know pakistanis and bangladeshis and many indians in india who feel the same way. Just like I like celebrating things that I have in common with all the various people I meet and know: whether they be iranian or korean or nigerian or texan or the tanzanian nun I met a few days ago at Ohare. And having a forum like SM doesn’t mean that I’m alienating myself from people who are not south-asian.
I think some commenters here are confusing the people of these countries and their governments. I know pakistanis and bangladeshis who share my “assumptions about assumptions about the democracy, civil liberties, the (lack) of a role of religion in politics, and so on”[Arun] and know Indians who do not share my political views. But I still call myself south-asian and indian.
I think another misconception is that the term “sepia” in the title of the blog excludes indians/south-asians whose skin-tone cannot be described as sepia (like mizos or kashmiris or whatever). I’m certain that was not the intention of whoever (Anna?) came up with the name.
Good grief!
I didn’t want to get involved with this discussion as it’s one we’ve had a thousand times (especially in the UK, where the Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities have more of a separate identity to Indians).
You can call yourself Indian AND South Asian for God’s sake. People say ‘ooh I’m not South Asian cos I don’t share views about democracy with Pakistanis’. Dude, you’re still South Asian cos you’re from South Asia. If someone’s thick enough to assume that all people from Asia are the same, then the word ‘Asian’ would never get used. It’s YOUR job to educate the ignorant, to let them know that South Asia is a disparate group – but one that can happily co-exist under one banner. Those of you who dislike the term are worried that you will be ‘tarred with the same brush as Pakistanis’. So what? If someone’s dumb enough to think that I’m a suicide bomber simply because of where I’m from, that’s their problem.
Do you like curry? Bollywood? Bhangra? Cricket? Jokes about sardars? Jeez look at all the things that unite us. There IS a common identity there, which is why we have Internet sites that cater to ‘South Asians’. If they had no interest in associating with one another, these websites would not exist. There will always be an element that want to dissocciate themselves from others. But in my experience, those are the ones with a energy-wasting preoccupation. Which is why when I go out, my friends are Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan, English, American and a few I can’t quite figure out.
I’ve never been one to pull my punches when it comes to criticising India’s neighbours, nor India itself. I have no love for the Pakistani government and a great deal about their culture. But I’m perfectly happy being referred to as South Asian, Asian, Indian, British, Bengali or a jackass.
damn. hadn’t thought id run into this american-indian vs indian vs abcd vs fob nonsense at SM (ha!). i thought discussions here were limited to hindus vs muslims vs christians :). there’s obviously some history here that touched a raw nerve but an entire post on this beaten-to-death topic spawned by a stupid tip? the story of a father and his little daughter would have been so much sweeter without the additional baggage.
after a countless never ending discussions/arguments with various folks about this, my attitude is, im not gonna make assumptions about you if you don’t make em about me. i might think i know where you’re coming from (since im pretty smart), but not having walked in your shoes, i can’t know. so let me hold back on my assumptions and judgements. people have very different experiences living in india and living in the US (or Dubai or london or at xyz) and they turn out very different. there is no generic prototype so let it go already!
think another misconception is that the term “sepia” in the title of the blog excludes indians/south-asians whose skin-tone cannot be described as sepia (like mizos or kashmiris or whatever). I’m certain that was not the intention of whoever (Anna?) came up with the name.
I think the term Sepia Mutiny was coined after the great Sepia Mutiny of 1857 when the British Indian Soldiers revolted againts the British for using “Cow fat” to grease their cartridges. I doubt if it has anything to do with the tone “sepia”. If I am wrong- I respectfully apologize, don’t want to be in Anna’s black book 😉
can u imagine the identity crisis of someone from northeast india that looks like someone from burma(ie someone from nagaland)? and also the naga culture may and some of the other ne cultures may be different from the pan-Indian culture (if there is such a thing) or just anybody that really wouldn’t strike u as Indian. like for example in Pakistan and India there is a group of people from Africa called siddis http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/people/siddi.htm.
mea culpa. just skimmed through everything except the story initially. this blog and comments seem to bout a completely different animal. one i didn’t even know existed. it’s about brown and south asian. let me grab my popcorn, sit back and let my mind be jaundiced by people’s prejudices.
“Sepia” is defined as an ink that is “brown with a tinge of red.” This “ink” reference was included because are writers “inking” our thoughts on this blog. Mutinous is our style of writing. When you combine the two you have Sepia Mutiny which is a pun on the 1857 uprising. “Sepia” is not related to skin color.
I think this topic has already been debated extensively a number of times before, as Bong Breaker commented. However, a couple of points:
Can I just clarify for the second time this week that the post at the top of this thread is by Jay Singh of Pickled Politics, and not Jai Singh of Sepia Mutiny ie. myself. We have significantly different views on a number of topics, not to mention quite different personalities, as Bong Breaker could confirm from the handful of times both Jay and myself have participated simultaneously on Picked Politics.
Regarding the whole South Asian/Indian/Pakistani controversy : It depends on the similarities between the various groups concerned and their attitudes towards each other and towards the West as a whole (both politically and culturally). As Bong Breaker has also mentioned, the dynamics and behaviours appear to be different over there in the US compared to how things have developed over the past 10-15 years here in the UK. (Those of you with long memories may also recall Punjabi Boy and myself discussing this issue here on SM a few months ago). If most of the American Pakistani community generally has a benevolent attitude towards Indian Americans and the United States (and the West) as a whole, and are generally more “moderate” and liberal in their mindset — which is the impression I have gained — then a common “South Asian” identity is obviously a perfectly viable proposal. However, matters have unfortunately become radicalised amongst certain quarters of the British Pakistani population over the past decade-and-a-half, with significant numbers of people having a more antagonistic attitude towards their fellow non-Muslim South Asians (and the West in its entirety), corresponding with a decoupling to some extent of identification with their fellow desis and a greater slant towards the whole pan-Islamic Ummah mentality (even if we’re just talking about “armchair caliphatists”). Moreover, negative attitudes and behavioural traits in certain areas are significantly more prevalent amongst British Pakistanis than British Indians, hence the objection by many in the latter group to any labelling of such issues as “Asian” (ie. South Asian) by the mainstream population and media. As Bong Breaker could again confirm from my sporadic posts on PP, one of the problems that has arisen in recent years is the fact that the terms “{South}Asian” and “Muslim” are often used interchangeably here, which is particularly inappropriate and, indeed, dangerous in the context of predominantly-Muslim (at least in the UK) issues such as (for example) honour-killings and forced marriages and, on a much larger scale, the issue of jihadist terrorism post-9/11 and post-7/7.
The concept of a pan-South Asian American identity is a noble ideal, and I hope to God that it works out more positively in the US than the unfortunate, and indeed tragic, route that it has taken here in the UK in recent times.
Dude, TTG, how Joyce of you:
Stephen Dedalus Class of Elements Clongowes Wood College Sallins County Kildare Ireland Europe The World The Universe
But, I think it misses Anna’s point. I think it’s kinda like how I, as an Hindu-raised atheist, see Christianity, Judaism, and Islam as being slight variations on a theme. Many people within those groups would have problems with that idea, but some would not. Like so many things, it’s all in how you look at it.
Anna, I agreed with you on your reaction to ()’s silly tip. But, having not grown up here, when I got to the line “…but I have this suspicion that the person in the parentheses didnÂ’t grow up here” I had to stretch a bit to make the assumption that you didn’t mean to generalize.
I’m sure you meant well.
Just like an Israeli wouldn’t call himself a middle-eastern or American wouldn’t call himself North American or a Chinese/Japanese/Korean wouldnÂ’t call himself a East Asian, please don’t call Indian people South Asian. Indian people are Indian alone. Some of the Sepia Mutiny people will be surprised to know that general public of India and Pakistan and Bangladesh have different culture, religion, world view and beliefs about 1000 f**** things. You can only club people of Indian sub-continent together if they somehow share something so valuable that they are virtually alike. Religion, beliefs, world view, and government and very big thing that separate us. I wouldn’t like any thing better than to have a united South Asian, but that is nearly impossible while we share different cultures to a very large extent. Yes, South Asian were all part of a Hindu culture but they are not anymore, so as already pointed out by 10s of smart people, it is misnomer if not out right stupidity to call Indians/Pakistanis/Bangladeshis South Asian. Please don’t insult the intelligence of 1 billion Indians by calling them South Asians.
S Jain,
Unless I’m mistaken, people here are referring specifically to individuals of Indian and Pakistani origin living in the West, especially those who were born (or at least grew up) in this part of the world; they’re not actually talking about the citizens of India and Pakistan.
Can I just clarify for the second time this week that the post at the top of this thread is by Jay Singh of Pickled Politics, and not Jai Singh of Sepia Mutiny ie. myself.
I did not see your first declaration.
Moreover, negative attitudes and behavioural traits in certain areas are significantly more prevalent amongst British Pakistanis than British Indians, hence the objection by many in the latter group to any labelling of such issues as “Asian” (ie. South Asian) by the mainstream population and media.
In the US, the overwhelming majority of “South Asians” are from India. In the UK, the community is not overwhelmingly Indian. So any South Asian “amity” you detect here and find lacking there may well be because most card-carrying South Asians are Indians. South Asianism also seems to be a platform for “progressive” Indians to critique a number of political movements active in India and Pakistan. To my mind, the whole South Asian identity is tinged by politics. I bristled at the faux-liberalism I detected at South Asian venues, and the belief of some adherents that being in America means that they’ve become enlightened and transcended the “bigotry” of their parents, which to my mind trivialzes the very real suffering that took place at say, Partition. South Asianism is not merely a matter of sharing gol gappa and chaat and dancing to MIA with your mates on weekends. One can surely do that–and why just with so-called South Asians?–and not identify as one. I do know for a fact that many universities have both South Asian and Indian Associations. So to each his own.
Would the 1st/2nd generation immigrant from Africa prefer to identify as ‘African’ or ‘Kenyan/Senegalese/Malian/etc’? Would someone from Europe prefer to identify as ‘European-American’ or ‘French-American/Italian-American/Irish-American’? I wonder. When the 2nd gen on SM travel abroad do you identify as ‘North American’ or ‘American/Canadian’?
I suspect in each case it is a personal choice, and completely dependent on the context of the situation. It is unfortunate that those who prefer to identify as ‘Indian-American’ or ‘Indian’ are immediately dismissed on SM, especially by those folks who have probably actually never even lived anywhere in South Asia themselves. Let’s be tolerant enough to agree to disagree. That goes for both sides.
S.Jain
The general public of India itself has different cultures, religions, world views, and beliefs about 1000 f**** (i have no clue what word you are implying there) things. Which is why, IMO, the term South Asian is not so far fetched. Please do not leave out such an important facet of reality in your arguement.
The Revolt of 1857 was the Sepoy Mutiny 🙂
Anna wrote:
As one of “them” I can assure you that there are some who are capable of agreeing to disagree. I don’t include myself in this category; however, in this instance, I was responding to TTG’s ill-tempered post more than your post. Obviously, that didn’t get through.
About “loving” India, I honestly don’t know what to make of this statement. When Indians [that is, “them”] make similar statements about USA/UK/whatever, I interpret this to mean that they like the quality of life in that country well enough to move there or at least want to move there. Clearly, that is not the case here: I don’t think any Indian-American likes the quality of life in India well enough to even remotely want to move there. Indeed, given that many Indians move out at the first available opportunity, this is hardly surprising. So I am genuinely puzzled about this “love” and would appreciate a clarification.
In any case, why should you care what “they” think? For that matter, who are “them” to decide who can/cannot “love” India? If you “love” India, good for you. If some boorish “them” imply otherwise, ignore them.
Suresh.
That is what is called a pun.
You see that word you have to type in order to comment? Brown? Right. Now perhaps that’s a better word…although it doesn’t sound particularly cool, I have to admit.
The reason I say it is cos black people are all perfectly happy referring to themselves as black (even though none of them are black – just to pre-empt points about some northern communities not being brown).
And for those of you wondering about SM’s name, why not read the FAQs?
Why is it that whenever I read the cold rage and haemmoroid squeals of MoorNam and Mark IV and their monomaniacal obsession with ‘molding minds’ I see the image of a match being lit and a Muslim/Christian/Sikh being soaked in petrol and burnt to a cinder?
The fact is, these Hindutvadis and New Jersey RSS wallahs are just as lax in their condemnation of extreme right wing Indian and Hindu nationalism and its genocidal corrolaries (Gujarat, Ayodhya ad nauseum) as any grumbling Pakistani-American is when it comes to the wicked deeds of Jihadis. So in terms of morality there is little difference there. And they just end up sounding so pompous, arrogant, fustian, and obsessive – there is something about them that speaks derangement and obsessiveness. The overseas Hindu, like the overseas Sikh and Muslim in the past, has been known to mitigate his penis-shrinking fear of the new by glorifying the old – and in the Moor Nam and Mark IV’s case, make themselves blind to the terror their exclusivism breeds in the souls of the persecuted.
There are some speculators on sepiamutiny who do nothing else but enact their whining psychology and demons and bigotry in an obsessional manner – to observe MoorNam picking at his excrement is simultaneously illuminating, disgusting and hilarious.
There are some hilarious jokes doing the rounds about half Bengali half gora
half-castesmixed-race blokes at the moment 😉And they just end up sounding so pompous, arrogant, fustian, and obsessive – there is something about them that speaks derangement and obsessiveness. The overseas Hindu, like the overseas Sikh and Muslim in the past, has been known to mitigate his penis-shrinking fear of the new by glorifying the old – and in the Moor Nam and Mark IV’s case, make themselves blind to the terror their exclusivism breeds in the souls of the persecuted.
Psychoanalysis, eh? A loutish Londoner zombified by visceral Anti-Indianism (Dalits, Tamils and Sikhs lumped together…so Khalistani, I might say) will undoubtedly and predictably rage against anyone betraying the slightest sympathy for Hinduism or India. In this demonizing mind-space Hinduism will always equal Hindutva, and India would be best off as a billion little pieces rather than a single state. Heard it all before, so residual and derivative. Snooze.
I totally agree with others lauding Anna’s original story, it made me feel proud of my family. Can you imagine the type of huztpah they had? Vah. And Anna your father seems like a very intelligent man. On the other topic, I’ll just say that some ideas seem right to a certain group of people. To many people in the diaspora, South Asian feels like it fits, so people use it. Not many of them use it bc its academic jargon. Some people may never use the word, but in their thought process or daily life. You’ll just have to chalk it up to preferences of a community. Which we 2nd and 3rd gen desis are. And there are many contributions to be made by this group, in the countries of their parents and in the countries they live in
perhaps i’m being simplistic, or even lazy–huge apologies if someone else said this already and i didn’t catch it in my mutineering-by-slacking-off-at-work skim down the page, here are my two paise: it seems to me that most individuals differentiating between indian/pakistani/nepalese/etc. and “south asian” seem to have a very myopic, narrow perspective on identity, whereas for me at least, I see myself as a culmination of multiple identities. (make your jokes…this ibcd isn’t all that confused, thank you very much)
i’m tanjavorian (sp?), tamil, south indian, indian, south asian, asian, world citizen. if i can attach all-encompassing labels such as tamil and south indian and indian to myself…hey I’ll take it one step further and call myself south asian. after all, what do i have to lose? not much. but i have a hella lot of friends to gain.
I’m a first generation immigrant, who can identify with being an Asian american, south asian, south east asian, Indian, Tamilian, Brahmin. I honestly don’t see how one precludes any of the others. Just because I consider myself a Tam, doesn’t mean I don’t consider myself Indian, or Asian. I don’t see being referred to as south asian a dilution of my ancestry – it’s just a fact.
Sure, there are plenty of differences between myself and a person from Thailand, who also falls under the broad category of “South east asian”, but there are also quite a few similarities. If I were to only identify with the narrowest definition of myself, as a tamilian brahmin, I’d lose a lot of the richness in my life – of having friends from all over the world, enjoying the cuisines, cultures and traditions of them all, not to mention my beloved American husband.
After all, what would life be without the occasional Thai green curry, or Vietnamese coffee, in addition to dosai? India has had a far reaching influence in south east asia. Hinduism (an Indonesian friend of mine just named her son Abhimanyu) and Buddhism are practised in more places than just India, Thai green curry is not that different from Avial. Instead of looking and focussing on the differences, I choose to look at the similaries.
I started typing a response to on-going debate, but I’m sorry I just can’t bring myself to care about this discussion again. Suffice to say that I would hazard a guess that those viscerally opposed to the handle of ‘South Asian’ are those who, as VBSF puts it, myopic. South Asian is more about culture than political affiliation. It certainly isn’t about religion, as all religions exist in all South Asian countries.
If you want to talk about your politics, it’s obvious that’s tied to your country, so feel free to say Indian or Pakistani then. But when it comes to music, family values, food and all the other things that the first generation of immigrants had in common, an all-encompassing term is needed. After all, that’s how it was coined – by people wishing to refer to all the immigrants who had come to the US/UK from SOUTH ASIA. To deny the use of the term is to deny that the four main countries have anything in common, when quite the opposite is true.
When people realise that calling yourself South Asian does not in any way negate your ‘INDIANESS’ (or whichever country) only then will this debate end.
Nicely put.
You can’t see it, but I’m sticking my tongue out. I’d like to hear them! Now I’m off to watch UK History, there’s a programme about what SOUTH ASIA has brought the world!
The core of Hindutva is that Indians are all “Hindus” where “Hindu” is defined as one for whom India is both motherland and holy land, and the problem lies with those who have different loyalties. One can legitimately oppose this imposition of identity, after all, we all construct ourselves in different ways. But then to turn around and insist on another identity – “South Asian” – for which there is even less basis than the Hindutva “Hindu”, and insist that those who don’t accept it have a problem of some kind is ironic. “South Asian” might have had some meaning if Partition had not happened, or if despite Partition, the ideology of the Partition was no longer alive.
I am most explicitly not South Asian, and utterly and completely reject this as a useful category. I see “South Asian” as the same type of mistake as a Holocaust denier.
Hmmmm, couldn’t care less about the Indian vs South Asian vs Indian-American, etc, etc, etc thing. Interesting that it always gets so many comments, and is never resolved as an issue. And never will be. I prefer fantastic-princess-her-royal-fabulousness-American myself, i.e. FPHRFA. Please remember this.
(btw, abhi, manish, and ANNA: I finally broke down and added M.I.A. to my Launchcast playlist. The terrorists have finally won…….)
(oh, and a second btw: are ya’ll treating that SM intern right? Is that SM intern following standard work-hour guidelines? SM intern – we stand behind you!)
OK, I think this could be the craziest thing ever written in the comments section.
Of any website.
Ever.
Anna, your posts as always are so incredibly inspiring.
On Identity politics:
I’m a 3rd generation born E. African. India nad Pakistan did not exist when my forefathers left the subcontinent. India and Pakistan especially are in my mind colonial contructs that I have a hard time identifying with. Sure you might argue that so are Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania, I agree with you entirely, but those are constructs that have meaning in my life, that is a part of my family’s cognitive history, and still, there are border disputes, and an identity that remains wholly east African. They are afterall, as Anna’s dad pointed out IMAGINARY lines dividing a people into fragmented bits. This ofcourse is how I see it. So the question then is am I allowed to call myself a South Asian? Would that offend those of you who seem to think that the term is some sort of covertoperation to tarnish your venerable (separate) identity? Can I call myself Kenyan? African? What will offend you more?
The truth is to me it doesn’t matter whether you accept how I identify myself or not. I will not root against Pakistan in a cricket match any more than I’ll root for India. It’s Kenya that I love, and we did some major ass-whopping last time, so you’ll do well not to underestimate our asses 🙂