And now a followup to one of the most vehemently commented old Sepia Mutiny posts – the annual fighter war games between the USAF and IAF. This year brought a new set of games and apparently a similar result –
Mingling over a few rounds of golf, dogfighting a bit over the jungles of West Bengal – this month’s Cope India 2005 war games were billed as a standard two-week exercise between Indian and American top guns.…The exercises had mixed teams of Indian and American pilots on both sides, which means that both the Americans and the Indians won, and lost. Yet, observers say that in a surprising number of encounters – particularly between the American F-16s and the Indian Sukhoi-30 MKIs – the Indian pilots came out the winners.
“Since the cold war, there has been the general assumption that India is a third-world country with Soviet technology, and wherever the Soviet-supported equipment went, it didn’t perform well,” says Jasjit Singh, a retired air commodore and now director of the Center for Air Power Studies in New Delhi. “That myth has been blown out by the results” of these air exercises.
Predictably, chauvinists of all stripes were pulled out of the woodwork –
…during Cope India ’05, Bharat Rakshak was a veritable cheering session for the underestimated Indian Air Force.Typical was a posting by a blogger who called himself “Babui.” Citing a quote from a US Air Force participant in Cope India ’05 in Stars and Stripes – “We try to replicate how these aircraft perform in the air, and I think we’re good at doing that in our Air Force, but what we can’t replicate is what’s going on in their minds. They’ve challenged our traditional way of thinking on how an adversary, from whichever country, would fight.” – “Babui” wrote, “That quote is as good an admission that the F-16 jocks got their clocks cleaned.”
…an American pilot who participated in the exercise, added his own two cents on the blog. “It makes me sick to see some of the posts on this website,” wrote a purported US “Viper” pilot. “They made some mistakes and so did we…. That’s what happens and you learn from it.”
Oh yeah? Well mine’s bigger than yours. Manish previously covered the new SU-30’s the Indian team fielded for the games. An impressive piece of machinery indeed and certainly an impetus for next generation F35’s and F22’s.
The results are not similar. Very few scenarios were run as F-16 Americans Vs. Indians. The SU-30MKI was only rolled out for limited exercises.
Majority of the time was spent on mixed formations, Americans observing some home grown Indian techniques and Indians operating out of an AWACS environment and getting the taste of it (they’ll be getting their own Phalcon Airborne radar system soon).
Interoperability was the key word here, learning out to partol and fight together. Nothing taken away from Indian pilots though, they performed superbly.
Plus that article sources internet chatter, which most of this is anyway. Couple of US pilots who participated gave some really cool info on F-16.net, but those posts were taken down later. From the gist of it, it was an intense training session, with both sides learning quite a bit and looking forward to more.
Think the most important thing is the training undertaken by the two. It is critical to understand that USAF was flying with their eyes blind. In reality, if there was truly a serious confrontation(here’s hoping that doesn’t happen), IAF may not even have a chance to get their planes in the sky. Even if they were successful in getting their planes in the sky, they would be shot down in no time. The technology is not comparable. The magic of television made it possible for all of us to see the uncontested fireworks that USAF was able to exhibit in the baghdad skies. Even if it won’t be nearly that simple in india, it might still be similar to it. I’m just a realistic indiaphile who wants to caution ppl from being overly encouraged(or discouraged from American stand point).
Just to clear up a little point: from the posting it would seem that a viper pilot was ticked off from seeing comments on the indian bharat-rakshak forum. Actually, the pilot was responding to comments on the primarily(?) american f-16.net forum which questioned the american performance. The CSM article, syndicated by abcnews among others, confounds the conversation of the two blogs.
that said, the comments by american pilots on f-16.net (later taken down as indophile notes) was very positive both about the nature of the exercises and the performance of the indian pilot-plane combinations.
if indians online are gleeful at the good performance, its not chauvinism – they are reacting to years of the IAF being derided by critics at home and abroad.
There is a mature and introspective way of looking at things, then there is “IAF beat USAF, USAF is shit, overrated, bloated….” That just becomes juvenile (not IAF, but armchair generals). Training is designed to attack and expose a weakness (or simulate one). I’m glad for the IAF; they’re a top notch well disciplined group who obviously make the best of whatever resources they’ve got. But where it counts, the USAF has always come through for the USA, and thats what matters.
I think Barry Sanders, the running back, said it the best when he commented on people scoring touchdowns and over the top celebrations that ensued. “Act like you’ve been there before”.
Part of this has to do with India’s relatively isolationist stance when it came to ‘mixing it up’ with other armed forces. In recent years, with more exchanges with the United States, France, Russia, and others, more exposure has been gained. Chest thumping is a bunch of hot air (on both sides). Respect is earned, and IAF rightly deserves so. Political leadership is the one whose always let the Indian military down.
Personally, I get annoyed when folks, based off training exercises designed to challege the opposition start making sweeping assumptions of ‘Who is better’. Warfare is dynamic and has many variables (logistics being the must underrated one, this is where the USAF/USA really shines) Those who can see the bigger picture know how differently the US forces are engaged, compared to Indian forces. Each country will adapt their technology and strategy accordingly (just like Israel does).
US stategy was designed to counter Soviets. In today’s post cold war landscape, things are changing rapidly and static models have crumbled. Hence, quality trainging with different friendly forces only serves to sharpen the sword.
Few know what a good source of information Bharat-rakshak.com is. The discussion forums are the least it has to offer. Its webmasters are the best informed people on the Indian armed forces period. Even on the discussion forums you have a number of well written posts from the experts. Strangely enough CSM has chosen to highlight the poorly written posts and not those of the ones from the experts.
Actually this was the cause of discussion on a lot of general message boards consisting of a majority of Americans. Everyone was pleasantly shocked. Of course, you had the negative nellies who kept coming up with apologies about why USAF did bad but overall people were encouraging and acknowledged the fact that Isrealis and Indians are starting to level the playing fields in many areas of defense. One of the funniest comments (depending on your sense of humor) I read, was from a white dude in Virginia: “Great job by the Indians. Now if they can figure out a way to fix my Dell. Oh wait, that is an American company too. Nevermind!”
Uncontested fireworks .. hmmm !!!! you expect a country that was under US (lets face it .. what UN sanctions mean) sanctions for 10 years to contest against US? You compare that with IAF ?
As for the logic of that war see my earlier comment here
I think the reference was to Operation Desert Storm (the first Gulf War) where Iraqi’s used the Soviet style centralized air defense networks that was intact and fully functional. The strike by F117’s into Baghdad followed by an Armada of F-15s and F-16s into the country (after AH-64 Apache’s knocked out radars opening up a gap in the defenses) was impressive by any means. Does that mean India would suffer the same fate, probably not. Warfare isn’t one idea peg fits all holes. The French and the Maginot line are a great example.
See, this is what I’m talking about. IF the USAF did bad in training, the Indians wouldn’t be interested in training more. Why waste the time and money? USAF didn’t do bad, but India (in Cope 04) did good. Announcing that one side did well does not automatically label the other’s performance as bad (Think close playoff games – two teams may have done really well, it’s just that one came out the winner).
thanks for clearing my stance gujju dude. I should have been more clear on my earlier post.
I don’t really keep up with Indian Air Force issues, however last I read a continuing and persistent problem for the Indian Air Force was an inability to put planes into the air that could function.
I was under the impression that a significant number of Indian planes in the Pak wars were hobbled by having all kinds of mechanical issues (numbers like 3/10 unable to operate due to mechanical failures were bandied about in the admittedly Pak orientated article) due to poor maintenance and aging planes. Any truth to this anecdotal info? If there is any success the Indians are having in the air are moot if in battle they canÂ’t get their planes to fly.
I think the important thing to take away from these exercises isn’t rally the “score” of Indian pilots vs. their US counterparts but rather that India is opening its military doors and tightening ties with the US. This has obvious benefits for both for the US and for India. Of course it’s nice to know that the boys in India are holding it down though! These exercises make it clear where India stands when it comes to our fight against Islamic Fascism- right at our side. I wish the American public was made aware of this. It could help prevent some of the ugly name calling that I see happening when DesiÂ’s run for office here in the US.
When I got to my first Army post I was surprised (a touch disappointed) to meet my Colonel who immediately saw my name and asked what country my parents were from. Not the first time that had happened but still I just wanted to blend in and do my job. Anyways, when I said India I was intrigued to see him immediately grin from ear to ear and say, “Oh! An ally!” Indeed Sir. Indeed.
It was a pleasure to meet a number of high ranking Indian Army officers who were training at our base and odd to see how obviously nervous and uncomfortable the Pakistani Army officers looked when they say us talking. Honestly it kind of made me happy to make the Indian feel at home!