An Asian-American college student cries brutha-on-brutha violence:
Who are Asian girls dating? Whites and South AsiansIn one of the discussion classes I taught last year at Berkeley, half of the Asian girls in the room stated that they do not prefer to date Asian men… who are they dating?… The most obvious [answer was] white men… The second most common answer from the girls was Indian men (South Asians).… their responses centered around… economic status and physical attractiveness… the Asian girls said that both white men and Indian men in our society (especially here at Berkeley) were viewed as successful, intelligent, and confident….
… the girls said that they found these two groups of men to be physically attractive… My conjecture in this case would be that both groups tend to share the same sharp features (Greco-Roman noses/eyes) that the media tends to value.
… Asian women are “up for grabs”… Asian men are getting the axe on two levels here. First, they are only seen as being able to date their own kind… At the same time, their own kind, at an increasing rate, tends not to prefer them sexually. [Link]… the Asian male as sexually impotent voyeur or pervert is a reoccuring icon, appearing throughout American cultural history and especially in film. Notable examples of this include Mickey Rooney in “yellowface” as the bucktoothed Japanese landlord who sneaks peeps at Audrey Hepburn in Breakfast at Tiffany’s (1961) or the pathetically asexual nerd Long Duk Dong in John Hughes’ adolescent classic Sixteen Candles (1984). [Link]
Great topic, Manish! I heard 1st about this problem from an Asian American online mag last year. Many college-aged Asian guys on this discussion forum were complaining about Asian girls preferring whites. I have been to Cali a few times and noticed this, as I had in my hometown of Tucson, AZ (though it is only 3% Asian). I wonder is this b/c of the Western standard of manly beauty or b/c these are young women? What do you all think?
image and media portrayal of beauty is the main reason for this. When the most common plastic surgery among asian girls is an eye job, it becomes clear why. I have many successful asian friends who are having problems finding gals.
Jin on “Lost” is extremely handsome. I’ve met some attractive, beautiful featured, tall, athletic asian men – they are out there. I also think the perception is changing.
When people refuse to date within their own “group” as a steadfast rule, that’s pretty sad and says something about their self-esteem (might have a self-hate thing going on). Not that I think one has to date exclusively within one’s own group… sometimes it doesn’t work out that way depending on one’s social circles.
Odd huh. Just the other day I remember thinking to myself that some of these Asian men were hot. Am I the only one noticing the tanned,tech-savvy, breakdancing HOT Asian men??
From crayonpeople.com: aznlover.com. It isn’t porn, it’s just a site that celebrates the beauty of the Asian man. If you google Oh ji Oh (an actor/model), you’ll come up with some really great photographs of a gorgeous man who also happens to be Korean. He was in a really hot Korean movie about a torrid love affair called “Belle”, I suggest a viewing. I’m South Asian and I’ve dated all sorts of Asian men. I dated the most beautiful Japanese man. I am not one to have types or races or certain tastes (unless you count beautiful hands and a strong jawline) but I find Korean men extremely attractive. Movies like “House of Flying Daggers” and “Anna and the King” have made many Asian actors mainstream (Chow Yun-Fat) and are contributing to the opening of the West’s eyes to the beauty of the Asian male form. Certainly some ideas persist. Asian men were thought to be sexually devious, lacking in potency where their genitals were concerned and all around lacking in lust. They were less than men. Opposed to this is the idea that Indian men and African American men are potent (the Kama Sutra and that the word “Tar Baby” meant a woman who could not lay off of the African American men) and actually have larger than life equipment and lust. Approximation of a culture through the female definitely keeps up with the idea of colonization (how else to overtake a culture, control a culture but to take to bed the women?) Asian women were always a hot commodity, a sex symbol. I’m not saying it’s a part of these girls to be sex symbols or that they wish to be sex symbols but the idea of exoticism persists. It’s easier to go with what everyone says. Unfortunately, the Asian man gets the shaft.
long duk dong was a dork. but so was almost every teen male in that movie. and long duk got a caucasian woman which is actually somewhat radical for it’s time.
some people act like the the long duk dong characterization was a crime against humanity. and that someone should go to jail for it.
the caucasian dork in that movie with blonde hair and blue eyes was completely obnoxious throughout almost the whole movie. he was desperate, pathetic, devious and immature. he acted like a pervert.
it’s odd how the sexism in traditional asian culture is not brought when discussing the outmarriage and outdating issue.
i knew a korean-american woman who emphatically declared that she hated asia. her father was also a traditional patriarch, and a bit of a bully.
while it may be true that asian-american males are having a tough time finding dates…especially the ones that are not obviously ‘hot’ or don’t do break-dancing, not all the reasons asian-american women want to date ‘outside’ are bad.
I think it’s pretty sad that so many Asian women only date white men. It definitely has to do with societal perceptions.
Of course, these Asian women aren’t doing themselves a favor–since the white men they date still tend to view them as exotic sex objects. So, they are only really harming themselves….
Not surprising why asian women may date white men. What’s surprising is why white men date asian women. Whatever may be the reason, such a cross (cultural) pollination is a welcome news because when you are in rome you can’t be brown.
OK, for a Brit reading this is helluva confusing. Asian, South Asian, Indian…
I think the word ‘Asian’ should never have been used in the first place. You use it for Oriental/East Asian, we use it for the BROWNS.
rl why is it surprising white men date Asian women? Please explain. Why is it more surprising than vice versa?
Lastly, Daksha, talking of breakdancing Asian men, I was supporting a friend (who you’ve already seen in my video) at the UK BBoy Champs today. So many Asian men – meaning the Oriental kind – and almost NO South Asians there. Koreans and Japanese love their breakdancing. I’m sure you’d’ve had had plenty of young studs to choose from. Not that I was looking of course. Ahem.
First over gets the shortest, default label. Enjoy it.
This subject has been debated for a number of years on usenet. A collection of postings/articles on the topic can be found here (some dating back to 1990)
Why Do Asian Women Date White Men?
My conjecture in this case would be that both groups tend to share the same sharp features (Greco-Roman noses/eyes) that the media tends to value.
black men don’t have sharp faces. i think the “sharp features” as a primary component of this is implausible (italians have sharper faces than northern europeans in my experience).
The real reason is a latent racism that runs deep, silent and often not acknowledged. I have seen really attractive and succesful asian girls date pathetic white guys. They could easily get an attractive asian guy who is dynamic and successful at the same time. Deep down there is an inferiority complex, an urge to climb up the racial ladder. I think this is predominantly because civilization as we see today is largely western in nature. The white race seems to be an embodiment of what is supposed to be cool.
Also, I do not really buy that asian girls care for Indian/south asian guys, I do not see that happening at all in the school that I go to. Maybe first generation asian girls, but even then I am not too sure.
Yup, but not the desi angle.
Not of cultural cool, rather power.
UC Berkeley has a large desi population and a very pro-Asian-American mindset.
Neither I (brown) nor my ex (yellow) knew of any other brown-yellow couples when we were together. Still pretty rare.
Interestingly in Japan, the image of the “masculine” male is giving way to a more feminized one… because surprisingly that’s what Japanese women want.
In Japan, men find feminine side
Doesn’t seem like that will translate well over here.
Sounds like American metrosexuals.
In one of the discussion classes I taught last year at Berkeley, half of the Asian girls in the room stated that they do not prefer to date Asian men
As this is written, it only says that these women did not prefer Asian men to non-Asian men. Is this what was intended? Or was it supposed to read “stated that they prefer not to date Asian men”?
manish — the pictures of the East Asian men you show are caricatures. A little silly to perpetuate this rivalry between East and South Asian men.
Actually, only one is, paired with his ’70s desi kitsch equivalent. Bruce Lee has also been reclaimed in some quarters as an Asian-American icon.
Yup, most dating discussion devolves into the purely anecdotal. Consider the title.
I barely see any brown on yellow relationships at all. Far more common to see both groups dating whites and blacks.
Yeah, I was waiting for others’ opinions, as I didn’t know what the situation’s like in the States. As for here, I can count the amount of Oriental-South Asian couples I’ve seen on one hand. Two friends, a Sikh chap and a Hong Kong girl, who went out for a while but I really can’t think of any others. Whereas white rugby player and trendy Chinese girl is one of the most common couples in uni.
I just think there’s a lot of latent racism. I was at a party on Friday night with a bunch of kids from SOAS, covering all hues possible and they came to the conclusion that Asians in general (as in, the whole continent) are the most racist people, with Chinese at the top of the list.
Sad really, cos I know two kids from an Indian-Japanese marriage and an Indian-Chinese marriage and they’re both beautiful.
A wee bit hypocritical innit.
Well I did say to them that labelling a particular race as racist makes them racist. But they said “we’re Chinese, so we’re allowed to call the Chinese racist.” So I didn’t bother arguing.
I’m guessing the essayist’s subjects were actually talking about aspirational, stated rather than revealed preferences. ‘Who do you think is attractive’ vs. ‘Who are you actually dating.’
I know several desi-East Asian couples, but yeah, it’s not that common in the U.S. as far as I’ve seen.
Re: default labels, Indians don’t even get to call ourselves Indians in the U.S. We’re sidelined into ‘East Indians.’ We are all Oriya 🙂 Thanks, Columbo.
in Singapore, Chinese-Indian pairings are very common these days.Many Indian guys prefer Chinese girls to Indian girls. Given the small Indian population, the Indian-Chinese intermarriage rate is hardly going to affect the Chinese male population but the issue has ruffled some feathers. At a university open forum, this chinese guy said that the sight of an indian guy with a chinese girl made his skin crawl.haha. chinese girls here love white(more) and Indian guys, which is strange cause when we were younger we used to get shit for being darkies.the indians i mean. you could be one foot into the grave and still find a bride in Asia, if you are white. this ‘saying’ is not entirely untrue. Judging from what I see in university etc, ‘white worship’ is going strong. The indian a distant second.
I have noticed that the number of 2-gen Asian-girl-Desi-boy couples in college has been slightly on the rise. It’s still nowhere as compared to white-asian couples but there’s a trend. My hypothesis is that this is because not only the college kids, but also their parents might be slowly warming up to that idea.
Also, I notice that girls from HK and S’pore are lots more open to dating desis, I guess because those societies have a mainstream desi presence.
My close friend (and roommate) is Japanese-American and he is quite the player. I talked to him about this and he thinks it’s mostly a matter of confidence on part of the guy. But I have noticed that his charms mostly work on white girls. Even I tend to get more attention from Asian girls than him 😉
I know about 5 to 6 desi-asian relationships, although some of them can today be prefixed with an ‘ex’. It takes two to tango (or maybe Salsa by popular choice), and so I think its important to look at the other side of this as well – i.e. do desi (men) find asians attractive and would they date them? Date as in long term relationship here.
I have a feeling all the desi men are going to start crashing asian parties 🙂
Today’s Washington Post has a writeup on this blog:
Angry Asian Man
He sure has a lot to be angry about…
i think there are more asian/indian couples on the west coast… not many here in the south.. here it’s indian/white…i’m not surprised about the berkeley contigency… i think it’s the same at ucla as well…
also on the west coast i’ve seen many hispanic/indian couples… hmm….
the united colors of benetton in full force…
Bong Breaker,
Amongst other things, I think that there’s relatively less Far East-South Asian dating here in the UK because there are basically less people from the Far East here, certainly compared to their counterparts in the US. Maybe it’s predominantly a factor of numbers.
They do have a point (in their reasoning behind why they’re “allowed” to say this, not necessarily their conclusion). For example, I think we all know that South Asians — particularly the older generation — can be extremely racist towards pretty much everyone. There is a huge amount of prejudice and culturally-sanctioned bigotry that goes on. Stating this doesn’t necessarily make someone a “racist towards his/her fellow South Asians” — it’s a matter of being honest and speaking the truth as one has factually experienced it.
Everyone else:
Not all South Asians have sharp features either. There is a greater chance of this if you happen to be Punjabi/Kashmiri or Pakistani, but even then it’s not guaranteed. Ditto for other North Indian communities.
As an undergrad, I dated more East and SE Asian women than Indian. Given that nearly a fifth of the undergraduate student body was Asian, it would be hard to go through college and not date an Asian. Before getting married to an Indian, my brother dated a Chinese woman (much to our parents’ dismay) – so we’ve had first hand experience in this.
I can’t say that these women dated me because they were actively avoiding men of their own ethnicity. They never spoke ill of Asian men.
Asian men should broaden their dating pool. I recently met a couple where a Thai guy was married to an attractive Mexican woman. Latinas seem pretty open in dating a man of any ethnicity.
Speaking from my personal experience only, one factor which makes dating Asian women a bit easier is that I don’t feel that their parents are on the date with us. Too often when I’ve dated Indians, I get the feeling that I am being sized up sor spousal suitability. Granted, it may be irrational, but I have not felt the same vibe when dating Chinese women.
i hear a lot of anecdotal stories (often from asian dudes) have how asian chix say they have small dicks, or that they are momma’s boys, or how white guys are all that and they disrespect them to their face. perhaps it’s true, but perhaps not. who knows the exact dynamics going on here? i know a very “progressive” (green party affiliation) local politician who went back to south korea to get married to someone from the old country. how prevelant is this?
and confidence matters. if you are whining that you are a loser because of the way society perceives, you are already a loser before people even see what you look like! i would be willing to bet that stereotypes and other issues are a factor with asian guys, but the lack of confidence that this perception generates in many asian guys (who complain about it constantly to everyone, male and female, within hearing distance when relationships comes up) is not a chik magnet. i knew a short guy who was a loser because of his own attitude too. same dynamic, if you whine about being a loser because of the nature of who y ou are, you tag yourself as a loser as in individual before that can come into play.
Lots to say but not a lot of time, so here goes: In my opinion, this trend can really be attributed to racial stereotypes.
While I do not hold the stereotypes I am about to describe, I think most will agree they are commonly held. While these stereotypes may seem outdated, I think they are often internalized by the very people being stereotyped. In addition, these racial stereotypes are a double-edged sword- often working in favor of one gender while working against the other.
Asian people are stereotyped as being small, timid, submissive, “exotic”, etc. This is a “positive” stereotype for Asian women, who are often fetishized by white men for these characteristics, but this is clearly a “negative” stereotype for Asian men as it emasculates them.
Let’s extend this to African-Americans, who, as a group, are stereotyped as being aggressive, loud, strong people. Here, the tables are turned gender-wise- while this is a “positive” stereotype for black men who are seen as more masculine because of this stereotype, to the point where it extends to “size”. On the other hand, this is a “negative” stereotype for black women, as it detracts from their femininity.
In my experience, Indians haven’t been here long enough to have a stereotype that sticks, which is why we don’t experience this as much. Although I have seen it to a small extent where Indian women complain about being called “exotic” and Indian men complain about being stereotyped as “geeks”, it is certainly not as clear or as prevalent as with Asians and African-Americans.
Bottom line is that many minorities in groups for whom the stereotype works in their favor (Black men and Asian women) often internalize these stereotypes and hold them against people of their own race, but opposite gender. In essence, I see this as a form of self-hatred as they are exploiting and propogating stereotypes against their own race.
straight, up have to stay the stereotypes about comportment and volume are true from what i’ve seen. browns tend to be in the middle i think, in singapore and malaysia they seem to have reps as loud-mounts vis-a-vi the chinese (personal communication from a malaysian and singaporean friend). there are likely intergroup differences in extroversion.
Yeah but dude, there are far less brown people in the States (percentage-wise), I thoughta that one!
Hmm…all this stereotype talk – how many of you have actually dated people from other races? I really don’t think stereotypes are that important. What happens is you make a group of friends and invariably your bf/gf comes from that group or one of their mates. So part of the reason that East-South Asian couples aren’t common is cos those two groups don’t hang around together all that much. Once they do – stereotypes don’t matter, you either like someone or you don’t.
Well perhaps stereotypes are important as they cause the separation in the first place, but I think the reason is more to do with a clan mentality.
Awesome! America was discovered by a detective in a dirty mac! Actually don’t get me started on the term ‘East Indian’, it makes me hate Americans for being so mind-numbingly thick.
Nice post dude. I don’t know about California but people are going to date other people as long as they are having fun (however that may be defined). If you ask me, asian girls dig white men because they have more fun dating that “culture”. Maybe, our culture suppresses women too much.
i’m in that minority of “brown guy dating asian woman” and since entering this relationship over three years ago, this type of pairing has been rare in my heightened observation. we are in the bay area, spending half of our time in south bay and half of our time up in berkeley.
interesting post… i guess we’re just damn seckzy 😉
think this situation is true for S asians also to a certain extent. You more S asian women with people of other race than S asian men(not to say its rare). Think there’s a funny paradox where a typical indian guy will play around with women of different race and then settle down with someone from “back home”. But indian girls try to stick with their “own race” most of the time. But statistics show that second gen indian girls are more likely to marry someone from another race(over 50% compared with 10-20% for guys). Even scary is the number of very succesful and educated desi girls who never get married. I don’t have any stats on that, but from my own personal observation, i think its on the rise.
But statistics show that second gen indian girls are more likely to marry someone from another race(over 50% compared with 10-20% for guys).
can you cite anything? this analysis taken from the USA census shows almost no gender difference for 1.5 and 2 generation american browns.
Eh, why the hostility bong breaker? Mind-numbling thick? Er, no. Just a different culture and a different way to use language.
I only know one couple where a Chinese-American married an Indian-American (look, it’s too late for me to learn the newest or latest or more fashionable identifiers, so this is it for me). It was in Palo Alto. This stuff takes time, integration happens slowly and over generations, and razib has it right. Lack of confidence and whining is generally not a turn on…..
And by ‘too late for me”, I mean, I’m too lazy to learn any new terms.
Anyhoo, I think all men are potentially gorgeous. I am truly catholic in my tastes. The men who have made my heart go pitter-pat in the past have included the following (and by pitter-pat, I mean find attractive, not that I have dated all these men, or wished to date them. Just most attractive, is all): a slightly zaftig Iowan who played high school football and had the bluest eyes, a balding Italian who did bench research, smoked like chimney, and played semi-pro football back home in Italy (or so the sexy nerd says….), a Chinese-American medical resident who is six feet tall and has the roundest, widest face and shortest nose, a Syrian immigrant with a slender build and a slightly high pitched voice to go with the most beautiful eyes, and an Indian immigrant who looked like Sanjay Dutt (the ex). All this lovely variety……
By the way, I will likely regret this comment and soon ask Manish to delete it (although, no one I know is remotely interested in blogs. I’ve tried, but they all think it’s boring).
Bong Breaker,
Some more statistics……… My sister-in-law is a Chinese (Taiwanese) American. My brother met her in graduate school. Also, I have a cousin sister-in-law who is a Sikh, another cousin will soon marry a Russian, and one of my relative’s (by marriage) sister is married to a muslim – this happened when they were in India.
One of my father’s former graduate student’s brother (a muslim) is married to a hindu.
Otherwise, I want to stay out of this discussion for a simple reason – they will not like me talking about them in a public forum without their knowledge.
Kush, yes, my families experience is varied as well and for the same reasons as you state, I have stayed away from talking about them here. About myself, well, I blather away….
” About myself, well, I blather away….”
MD,
That is perfectly kosher.
Myself, I am always seeking a notch-above my league, color immaterial. Lately, that bar has been sky rocketting – either I think am becoming a player or I am just losing my mind.
MD:
Wah…just one Indian on that list??? Where is the hope for us??? Its a very very sad day 🙂
Wah…just one Indian on that list??? Where is the hope for us??? Its a very very sad day 🙂
the one she married. so keep the hope alive, me thinks that the die is loaded 🙂
Don’t worry OYBBB, I’m not a stunner like ANNA so, really, what are my opinions worth? 🙂
Okay, I finally got around to reading the first link (yes, I am procrastinating on some writing I am supposed to do as usual – the rate of SM commenting goes up when I have to write something or make a power point presentation). What feeble minded women! Bah. You men are better off without those feeble minded types.
Yes, yes, I understand the larger culture produces expectations in your little girlish hearts, and it feels daring and freeing to upset parental expectation, and yes, some of us grow up with domineering fathers and patriarchal families, but, still. You are not eighteen anymore! Get. Over. It.
I mean, look at the
Hit post too soon. Never mind. The rest of the comment was as feeble minded as the first link I read. Still, here it is:
Oh, boo hoo, society at large makes me like white men better than asian men. Whatever. Grow a little, ok?