I wish I were a man. Really. Their problems seem so much more…significant, no?
At least, that’s how I feel after reading a Washington Post article entitled, New Wives Bring New Hope to Sri Lankan Widowers.
Thanggod! Some good news about Sri Lanka, I thought, as I clicked the link and started reading:
Plunged into despair after the tsunami killed his wife and two of his four children, Ruknadhan Nahamani passed the first months after the disaster in an alcoholic fog, drowning his sorrows in the potent local liquor known as arrack . But grief was only part of the problem, he said.
“There was nobody to wash my clothes and take care of my kids when I went out to work,” said the wiry 32-year-old fisherman, whose teeth are stained red from chewing betel nut, a mild stimulant. “It was really difficult.”
But Nahamani is a single parent no more. In June, he exchanged wedding vows and jasmine garlands at a Hindu temple with a woman from a nearby village. “We are very happy,” he said outside his tent at a refugee camp as his new wife, Leelawathi, heated cooking oil for the evening meal.[link]
The man survived a tsunami and lost almost his entire family and lives in a refugee camp. Of course he deserves all the happiness he can find.
But the grinchy pebble I call a heart couldn’t muster more joy when I remembered all the war widows in Sri Lanka. Some 40,000 at last count.
And the fact that women drowned in massively disproportionate numbers (three times more) during the tsunami because they’re not taught to swim.
And the fact that widows are still treated like amoral harlots in most of South Asia.
Where’s the bloody community support for them?According to Sri Lankan human rights activist and lawyer Manouri Muttetuwegama:
“Widows were marginalised by their communities, orphaned girls were deprived of basic education, and thousands of female-headed families struggling to survive are still waiting to be counted in official statistics so that they can receive aid”, she says.[link]
But let’s return to the happy fisherman:
In [his] village, 31 of the 37 men whose wives died in the tsunami have remarried, according to local officials and aid workers.
In the first months after the tsunami, virtually all of the 37 widowers [of one village] dealt with their grief — along with more pragmatic concerns, such as who was going to cook for them and raise their children — by drinking themselves senseless.
Widowers from the village appear to have had little difficulty lining up new wives, often with the aid of relatives or friends.
Why do I feel sour reading this? Why is it ok for men to have a pity parties while women are expected to hide and fend for their shameful selves? Can you even imagine how this village would react if a woman hit the arrack while her kids yowl with hunger around her?
Maybe I’m still a little steamed from watching 1-800-INDIA on PBS tonight. Young, single women earning enough to support themselves and their families…I was all set to have a happy hour in front of the telly. The show did address some ways in which traditional gender roles are loosening, but single girls, living with (female) roommates? Aunties, Uncles, and SuitableBoys, all say – “Sluts!”
Dismayingly, it’s a hypocritical refrain I hear even in NY, among the American-born…Men want to meet a sexy thing at a club, but not the woman they want to marry. What gives?
I ain’t trying to pour haterade on all the lovely SepiaBoys who visit this site. But while we tut-tut over the latest rural Panchayat decree sentencing a woman to be gang-banged by half the village, don’t we feel rather superciliously removed from it all?
I dunno. If you want to discuss this further, please come find me. I’ll be at the bar with a hipflask full of arrack.
I leave the computer for a few hours to have a life and look what happens.
Umair Majahir said:
SMR said:
J’ACCUSE! Y’all are so eager to accuse me of making generalizations about all of India, you didn’t notice I was intentionally very specific in my choice of words. TRIVANDRUM, I said, not ALL OF INDIA. I also had friends from Mumbai who felt constrained by the oppressive norms in Trivandrum. Go live there yourself for 3 months, if you don’t believe me. I’ve heard Mumbai is more progressive for women of the middle and upper classes, but Mumbai isn’t ALL OF INDIA either. I will make this sweeping generalization though: ALL OF INDIA is behind ALL OF THE UNITED STATES in terms of women’s rights.
tef said:
Yes, I would – Book of Job, anyone? But there’s nothing in those books that delves as deeply (or with as much insight) into a romatic relationship as the Ramayana. And the more flak I get from angry Hindus, the more I realize they’ve read far fewer Ramayanas (if they’ve actually read any) than I. Unlike the Bible and the Koran, there’s no single difinitive Ramayana that all Hindus have agreed is the “real” one. However, there are several good translations in print, and the one I most often refer to is the Valmiki Ramayana translated directly from Sanskrit to English by Arshia Sattar; her source material is the oldest known. And by gosh, if there ain’t psychological abuse in there! Rationalize it away any way you want; I’m talking about the text, not the religion.
Tim Rice and Andrew Lloyd Webber already made a Bollywood-esque musical about Jesus, the famous Jesus Christ Superstar. The film version is pretty weak, but the Broadway cast recording is good. There was also a hilarious “Jewsploitation” movie a few years ago, the Hebrew Hammer. Nah, to get my undies in a twist you’ll have to do something other than movies and satire, I like those. But I’d be delighted and honored if you made them anyway!
Well, I for one think this tangent of discussion is due to people really (desparately) wanting to talk about this topic for a while… and using the excuse of desi men to talk about it. Maybe this dating discussion was long overdue. I don’t blame y’all even though I really don’t get any of it.
I haven’t noticed the desi behaviour yo guys are talking about. But then again I don’t live in brown-dominated city…so perhaps I’m missing out on similar experiences.
vandesi,
You might want to read the post again before deciding to slag me off as an “American Indian Princess.”
As I clarified further in comment #20:
A double standard that extends from ignored, maligned widows to single women who are seen as morally loose and therefore deserving of groping. Of course the former is in its own catagory of misery altogether, but it appeared (to me) that urbanization and employment haven’t made that much impact on certain cultural norms.
As MD said, this thread has been silly at times, but that is what a forum should be. Would you prefer it if I hovered like a grim hall-monitor and deleted comments that weren’t directly about the post?
In that case, exactly what did your comment contribute, except for a mighty chest-beating on how shallow and flippant I’ve proven myself to be? Proven, that is, by your random selection of words (camel-toe, grope) from the comments, disregarding any context I may have placed them in.
I just can’t allow that, you know. For if you are to be believed, it is all about me. So get it right.
I can’t take it anymore. I’m about to choke on my own vomit. I’ve tried staying out of this recycled conversation but I just can’t. For every “oooh desi men are sleazy” I will forward you ten stories for how much of a gentlemen they are. Also it wouldn’t make for a very interesting comment thread if we started posting about how desi men rock would it?
In general (I am not singling anyone out) every person I have met from New York (men and women) are jaded and cynical when it comes to dating, love, and the opposite sex. IT’S THE CITY PEOPLE!!
Just last week I was talking to two Indian girls from New York who were explaining to me how you have to keep an eye on your man or they will cheat on you. Their unstated assumption in this conversation was that it was an Indian guy’s (and men in general) natural inclination to cheat. By the end of our conversation, after I explained what the reality was in the rest of the country, at least one was ready to leave NYC.
Enough with the male bashing please. Cool is cool and immature is immature. Regardless of race and culture. Give the brothers a break or you’ll be too bitter to know a good thing when you see it.
Ooooh – Cicatrix: are you … Pocahontas?
Nina: Re: “I will make this sweeping generalization though: ALL OF INDIA is behind ALL OF THE UNITED STATES in terms of women’s rights.”
Just so I don’t misunderstand, I take it you are NOT saying that there is no aspect of women’s rights in which the USA is not ahead of India, right? (i.e. you are making an “in sum” kind of claim?)
Re: trivandrum: point noted, though your comment was fair game in a context where there were/are a large number of gross generalizations being bandied about; surely you don’t think many of your readers only took you to be raising a Trivandrum-specific point? Even in other places just “as conservative” as Trivandrum, the particulars, the nuances of gender issues will be very different. Take one example: women shop by themselves to all hours of the night in Hyderabad’s Old City, and no-one would think they are sluts, even though I would wager that the Old City is more conservative than Trivandrum…
Sacajawea, Ennis. Get it right! 😛
OK, I NEED TO GO OFF TOPIC.
Dear fellow sepia-ites: granted I don’t have a cool handle (it’s just my real name, first and last), but is that any reason for it to be so fearfully mangled? Since I’ve started frequenting sepia territory, I have been a “mujahid” (albeit not for debauchery), a “Majahir” (yep that’s you Nina), a “Mujahir” even…
folks it’s “Muhajir” (meaning refugee); and NO it has nothing to do with the “Muhajir” that means Pakistani-descended from post-1947 Indian-migrants.
Sheesh, I should just adopt a handle… 🙂
led to this reply:
The respect accorded to motherhood, the desexualization of older women, and kowtowing to family dynasties means that some female elites have reached lofty positions in the subcontinent, and I don’t just mean prime ministers.
This post by Vikrum Sequiera about “gender apartheid” in India has some interesting observations.
Manish: that was a cheap shot: actually I was thinking of certain other aspects:
Objectification/commodification of women in popular culture (though much has changed in India over the last few years); I know of a number of women who say they feel uncomfortable about their bodies in the West in a way they do not in India; surely the prevalence of certain sorts of media imagery is a factor? Personally I feel quite disturbed when I read reports of studies claiming that a third of Caucasian women in the USA have had or continue to suffer from some sort of eating disorder. The latter are rising among urban, upwardly mobile women in India, but still represent a miniscule % of the corrsponding US figure.
The traditional structures are certainly loaded in favor of men, but even an advantageous situation can bind those who are advantaged. i.e. I think Indian social structures often provide more support for older women; for instance it would be considered quite dishonorable for someone to divorce his wife in favor of a younger woman. I’m not suggesting one should not divorce for fear of social sanction, but many American feminists have also commented on how female vulnerability has increased in the West in the wake of no-stigma divorce, and women’s liberation COMBINED with fairly limited commitment to feminism on the part of most men.
In my own observation, I find that while contemporary American guys our age are quite sensitive to racial/ethnic issues, they can be quite tone deaf when it comes to gender issues.
Whoops! Terribly sorry, is my face red. Thanks for the correction.
I mean overall, the US (and Canada, and Europe…the “West”) is ahead of India in women’s rights. Way ahead. I am not saying that the most oppressed (internally or externally) woman in the US is more liberated than the least oppressed woman in India. There’s much variation within both countries.
Also, what Manish said.
Re: “I mean overall, the US (and Canada, and Europe…the “West”) is ahead of India in women’s rights. Way ahead.”
I agree completely. But see my response to Manish too…
You misread, I’m in agreement.
Nina P,
I am not an angry Hindu. I hope you were not calling me one. You claim some Hindus do not know that many Ramayanas exist. That is information that you do not need to tell me, because my initial response clearly indicates that I do.
I haven’t read the version you mention. I read the Princeton University translation of that is based on the Baroda Oriental Institute’s critical edition. I am not sure what you find so abusive about it? I have my problems with portions, but I really want to know what you find so abusive. Alas, this may not be the place for this discussion.
I went to your site, hoping to find more information. And I notice that your initial reaction was that the Ramayana was “bizarre and extremely misogynistic”. And later I gather you began to admire Sita, but not the Ramayana the story. I wonder if a story that leads you and many others to such strong admiration and defense of Sita can be that bad?
But in the end I think you are saying,that you are subverting a secular text and not a religous one. You are entitled to do so.
Btw, 3 months in India does not make you an India expert not even a Thiruvanathapuram expert : ))
No, I was referring to the same “some people” you were referring to earlier, not you personally.
That’s odd – I’ve gone out of my way to express my admiration for the Ramayana story. Recently I wrote:
but that’s buried in a comments thread. Really I can’t praise the Ramayana story enough, I love it, it’s amazing, it’s genius.
Probably not, considering it’s been discussed ad nauseum for centuries. But here’s an intro: here in the West, wife-beating (as in the Launderer beating his wife) is considered physical abuse. Booting your wife out of the house with no explanation and total withdrawal of all communication? We call that psychological abuse here. Don’t know what they call it in India – after all, I’m no “India expert.”
You don’t say? Gee, I should stop telling everybody I am. And yet 3 months was certainly enough time for me to identify sexism galore.
I’m not an Indian. I’m not a Hindu. But I am a woman. You, sir, are no woman.
<
blockquote> I’m not an Indian. I’m not a Hindu. But I am a woman. You, sir, are no woman.
Whoo-hoo! Tell it to him, sister!
Above comment: GOOD POINT!
Nina,
If you find a character in the Ramayana beating his wife, then makes the Ramayana, a sexist text. I am not sure where to begin. And I am not sure if I want to begin. I find your perspective very unnuanced.
No I am not a woman, I hope that does not mean that I should unconcerned with sexism & misogyny. What if I said that you shouldn’t be talking about Hinduism, because you were not a Hindu. An approach I rather clearly did not adopt from the very start.
First of all I am bothered by your “here in the west” tone, I’ve lived here long enough to know what the west is like, perhaps you should have lived in India long enough to learn that back in the east; beating women is also considered abuse.
I would like to thank you for the time you’ve spent responding. I apologize if I’ve been needlessly combative.
if someone says “hi” and then gropes you, they are clearly not very mature. is that a desi thing? i doubt it. but i’m not a woman so i don’t really think i can say.
as a guy who has not had the impulse to grope a woman for about 15 years, i wouldn’t even know how to begin to counter that statement. i do sense a tendency to label as “desi” certain behaviors that aren’t. any desi and his sister feel that can go clubbing at a desi party. its one of the cool things about it. but you know what you’re going to get? a guy who is just excited to see tight pants. do you seriously believe desis are the only group with that contigent?
i honestly believe the whole conversation about desi men and how they act at parties is like a family arguement. the world “outside” in my opinion is as harsh if not more so. do you think going clubbing anywhere is a good place to meet men? or women for that matter? i also think you will find a lot of mature desi men in the world and if the attitude is, all desi men are ass-grabbing leachers, you’re not going to find them.
this is something i used to hear all the time when women are in college or high school. i think its not really evidenced by how desi men act out of college.
its just really comforting i think to make desi men into these caricatures because frankly we are the only ones it can be done to by desi women
OK. people. step back and read what is written instead of what you want to rant about.
the only time the phrase “all desi men” was used in this entire thread, it was by me:
Desi women here are NOT beating you with their baggage, (come to think of it, majority of commenters here are men!), we know you are sensitive (clearly), and we wish you (as brothers, cousins, friends, uncles, etc) would believe us when we say that there is a reason for our comments.
Please read the excellent link provided by ms. The woman didn’t help the guy because she knew how people would talk about her if she did. Even though it would be for something as sensible as helping him to safety – he was a stranger, and she would have touched him, and that is really all it would take.
Cicatrix: your point is taken (I did check out the link), but I think “apartheid” is a little too loaded a word…
For the record, my complaint was not that you (or anyone else) were saying that “all” desi men are a certain way, it was a combo of a bunch of sweeping generalizations offered in this comment thread by a bunch of people, but above all combined with an (in my view uncritical) implicit assumption that “our” (read: modern Western) way is just better, or that it ought to be the norm.
PS (and then I promise I’ll shut up): In the linked story, there’s a line to the effect that “even in cosmopolitan Bombay” holding hands is akin to an act of defiance.
Since we’re on anecdotes, let me just say that I spent a week in Hyderabad this summer (hadn’t been to the city in years), and in the walkways around Gandipet (some dsitance from the city) and around the Quli Qutb Shah tombs & surrounding gardens (pretty much in the heart of the city) one couldn’t walk 50 steps without coming across a necking couple. Personally I was taken aback because, well, I guess I’d never seen women in burkhas/abaayas making out before…when I mentioned this to my relatives they looked at me like I was freaky (with the “c’mon, everyone knows Hyderabadis are romantic you Amreeka-returned dumbass” kind of sigh)…
Sure, it’s New York’s fault– but only if you exalt innocence.
A little Learning is a dang’rous Thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian Spring: There shallow Draughts intoxicate the Brain, And drinking largely sobers us again.
Said the Pope. Can you believe it?
Cicatrix- looks like you opened the flood gates for some serious Indian-male-bashing with your comment about what Indian men want at the club vs. marriage. I have a lot to say about this topic:
You said “Dismayingly, itÂ’s a hypocritical refrain I hear even in NY, among the American-bornÂ…Men want to meet a sexy thing at a club, but not the woman they want to marry. What gives?”
Is this even a serious question? As many have already stated, the average club-goer is not looking to meet their future spouse at a club- they are looking to have a good time, and possibly hookup with someone. So yes, it makes sense and is in no way hypocritical that people (men AND women) want to meet a sexy thing at the club, but that’s not necessarily the type of person they want to marry. What does this have to do with being Indian? This goes for club-goers of all ethnic groups.
You also said “STL_Maximus, I’m sorry to say that saying “hi” back gets taken as an invitation to grope. Not by all desi men, of course, or even most. Maybe it’s just a few, really. But I’m afraid those few times stick out.”
I’ll talk more about this later, but why is it that those few times stick out when it comes to Indian men, but not when it comes to men of other races? Are you telling me this groping is specific to Indian males? Women are groped at clubs all the time, and it is not right, but it is also not an act specific to Indian males. I’ve seen FAR more cases of drunk white and black men being busted by women for groping than Indian men.
errant arrack- you said “I totally agree, but I was interviewing some early-20s brown kids at a regular bhangra/r’n’b club night in Toronto a couple of years ago, and the girls all complained loudly about the behavior of the guys. Lots of ass-grabbing, gross comments, nights all ending in drunken brawls between the guys, etc. So I was like, um, why don’t you go to other clubs? Because there are no brown guys there. Riiiiiight. If the girls decide they can ONLY hang out with brown guys, and they hate the way they behave, then they’re shooting themselves in the foot.”
I have observed a phenomenon among many minority groups, which is that they will often assume that negative traits of someone of the opposite sex are specific to their minority group. This applies to both men and women. You give a perfect example here- imagine kids in their early 20’s experiencing “ass-grabbing, gross comments, nights all ending in drunken brawls”, just imagine that among a group that age! Is this behavior specific to Indian men? I think not. It is something you’ll find among young men of various ethnic groups in their early 20’s. And moreover, I have had my share of experience on the club scene in New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami, and San Fran and I have rarely seen this type of behavior among Indians- the only time I can recall seeing this is among very young Indian people (the pre-21 crowd). If you are seriously observing this kind of behavior, maybe you should stop spending so much time at the 18+ clubs and start attending some more adult venues. Another troubling implication is made in your response, and that is that the choice the desi women have is between “desi male jerks” and “nothing”, or “non-brown men”. How about “decent desi males”, of which there are plenty everywhere- clubs or no. Are there a larger percentage of jerks at the club vs. other places like on college campuses, at the library, concerts, etc? Yes, but, again, this is not a desi-specific phenomenon. The implication you are making is that desi women can either deal with the immature brown men, or go to other clubs and find more mature non-brown men. Get real. If you’ve ever been to a club, you would know that many Indian women often avoid non-Indian men at “mixed” clubs precisely because these non-brown men are just looking to bust a nut on an “exotic”, spicy Indian woman. IMHO, if an Indian woman were to date both Indian and non-Indian men equally, she will get “played” more often by non-Indian men, who are often looking for a temporary taste of exotic spiciness, than by Indian men. I’m pretty sure not a lot of Indian women here will disagree that they are often fetishized by non-Indian (esp. white) men, and this plays into it.
Andrew Jackson- you said “…So I think all indians be it male of female want to create social bubbles where the chances of succeeding in it is much higher than if you were to actually go to a more neutral setting. Leading all sorts of issues and problems with males trying to control the only social scene they can dominate. And women trying to be known in the only scene they feel they can be known in.”
Jai Singh- you said “Apart from the lack of necessary interpersonal skills on their part, I think it’s also partly to do with a sense of “ownership” over their South Asian sisters.”
This is a gross oversimplification if ever I heard one. Not only that, it’s also not what I’ve observed. Maybe the UK Desi scene in different than it is here in the US, but here, Indian women can get just as much of an ego boost, if not more, by going to a mixed club setting vs. an Indian one. And claiming that Indian men act immaturely because they aren’t successful with other women is pretty far fetched. My theory is this: here in the US, Indian-American men and women are repressed compared to their white American counterparts. Because many (if not most) are not allowed into the dating game until much later than their white American counterparts, their maturity is often lacking when it comes to relating to the opposite sex and relationships, and it takes them longer to mature in this respect. Jai Singh- it is important to note that this applies to both Indian men AND women. This explains why you see so many 25-year-old Indian male “players” and 25-year-old Indian female “princesses” out there. If Indian women on this forum want to go on an Indian male bashing spree, you better be ready for an equal backlash regarding the “princess” mindset many Indian women have well into their late twenties. While it is a normal phase for a lot of women to think they are god’s gift to men when they are 16-18 and everyone wants to get in their pants, many Indian women seem to hold on to this attitude well into their mid to late twenties.
Among many minority groups, including Indians, I have noticed that, for many of them, a few bad apples spoil the bunch when it comes to members of their own ethnic group, but not when it comes to members outside their ethnic group. Perhaps this is related to the psychological trauma of growing up as a minority and the the need to conform, and therefore easily buying into stereotypes about one’s own ethnic group. For example, it often only takes a few Indian male “players” breaking an Indian woman’s heart before she renounces Indian men as a bad bunch altogether. However, if a white man, for example, plays her, his actions represent only himself and not the rest of the white race. In this way, Indian men and women demand their individuality, while not affording the same to the opposite sex. Hypocritical. Just ask yourself how often you’ve heard a white man or woman say “I don’t date white men/women”. Yet, you hear this from Indian men and women quite commonly. Why is it that white men and women enjoy individuality in the eyes of Indian men/women, whereas Indian men and women do not? Why is it that Indian men and women are so quick to stereotype one another?
Rupa- you seem to be a rare voice of reason in all of this, so I will repeat your post here for emphasis: “Women have often felt that the instant they say hi back to a guy who’s approached them, or treated them like human in the least possible way, the guy assumes she wants him and digs his heels in. (We’ve all been there, right? Dancing at a club, someone comes up from behind, etc. If you show even an iota of interest or treat them like they exist, they assume you want them.) This is ALL men, not just the desis, unfortunately. … Ladies…if you’re at a club, try to treat that desi guy (fob or not! you could be surprised 🙂 who approaches you as politely as you would treat the white guy who approaches you.”
Amen, sister! 😉
The reason that some guys translate “hi” to imply “grope me” is because it works sometimes (alcohol, on both sides, being one of the factors). But in any case, it’s often hard to tell the difference between a woman that will allow groping and one that won’t (for instance, a fair number of women at a night club are dressed in pretty much the same attire.) So, if there are some guys that want to grope, and some girls that don’t mind being groped … the inevitable result is some searching.
Don’t get me wrong–I’m not making excuses for anyone’s behavior. It’s just that the danceclub girl-meet-boy situation suffers from inconsistent signalling; expecting more out of a dance club comes across as having the wrong expectations. In the end not only do the gropers piss off a fair number of women, they also have the effect of keeping other guys away (or atleast I’d rather stand amongst the shadows than approach a woman that’s been hit on 3 times in the last 5 minutes.) Unsurprisingly, most people–the guys in the shadows, and the groped women–are left unhappy.
Places like salsa clubs are significantly more civil, not because there are no wannabe gropers, but because the interaction protocol is well defined.
Dude. I hope this isn’t all my fault. My god, I can’t possibly read all this even. I realize I was #2. . .but my whole point was that it’s cross cultural and a natural consequence of sexism, which is still a big problem everywhere, to varying degrees of course. OF COURSE there are great guys everywhere. I’m just saying the proportions are not equal, b/c society cuts nongreat guys more slack than nongreat girls. In a continuum there is no need for a choice, but dates, like most things, come in discrete packets of one (okay, no Siamese twin jokes), and at any given month you may only have so many to choose from. If society’s inequities disproportionately encourage men to be immature, then any girl is going to face a dry spell, disproportionate to her own immaturity, at some point, and that point the choice becomes difficult. Get it?? Note the lack of race in this analysis.
This has NOTHING to do with desis, but I don’t buy the perl mongers meeting–though that is a very cute name. There’s a false dichotomy between nicenerds and meanjocks. Some the nicest guys I know are not so smart, and some of the meanest guys I know are nerdy geniuses. There seem to be an underlying thread here of people saying, “well, what do you expect? you’re dancing at a club, of course you’re going to be groped,” which is frustrating b/c, well, some people just like to dance even when they aren’t trying to get laid.
Nina, I’m sorry, perhaps I misunderstand you, but I don’t think upper class Kolkata has anything on parts of rural Mormon Utah when it comes to sexual oppression. I think there’s a lesson in functional real analysis here, but I’m too tired to parse it out.
But yeesh. Are we all a little stressed about dating, or what? Frankly I’m a little disappointed that everyone glommed onto that aspect of the conversation and not the NGOs I pointed out. Group hug everyone! Group hug. Seriously.
I’m about to choke on my own vomit.
I’m sorry Abhi, that totally made me laugh. I understand your upsetness, but please don’t give yourself an aneurysm over comments!
Saheli:
I wrote (#112)
So we agree, I think.
Abhi,
Read the supplementary message I tacked on after my original longer post. The key word I used was “many”. Not “all” or even “most”.
VMN Rao,
Your brilliantly-written message was totally correct in my own experience and I agree with it completely. With regards to your reference to my own previous message — I should have added “the immaturity factor” when explaining my own views on why many desi men (and yes, women too) behave in certain negative ways, but you’ve explained that thoroughly yourself. Apologies for not making that factor clearer in my own post. And yes, from your description of big-city desi life/attitudes/behaviour in the US, many of the same dynamics appear to apply to UK desis too. Kudos again for a superb post — I support you in your views and you’ve definitely got my vote.
.
Isnt this at the heart of all dating dilemmas?
Sumita
Yes, Jai Singh, I know lots of thirty and forty and even a few fifty-somethings who post on this thread. I was joking….if you read my comments in the past you would know Punjabi Boy and I are similar in that respect….often, we are just having fun and don’t mean our comments to be taken entirely seriously.
Honestly, what is it about Sepia Mutiny that makes people try and correct everyone else as to the ‘correct’ attitude to have toward any given topic? I do it too, justlook at the way I treated Siddhartha M. on a previous thread.
My original comment stands: Oh dear.
And abhi, your comment about cynicism is the smartest thing I’ve read on this thread.
And guys, (some, note the qualifier) women sometimes like to vent. That’s all. Venting and talking about stuff is what (some, note the qualifier) women like to do. That’s it. They like to talk about their feelings and get things off their chests (don’t go there, Punjabi Boy).
Ok. I’m still amused, single-digit, teen, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty-somethings and beyond. That was for you Jai.
MD
laughing
Oh dear!! is a great comment(Mine too) Loved the bit about women venting(as woman, mea culpa)laughing more
Sumita
And my favorite comments are razib’s by far who is honest enough to tell it like it is. Some of our dating problems (most, probably) are due to personal issues like overly high standards, unwillingness to compromise, and, well, plain old unattractivenss, both physically and personality-wise.
*PS, I’m still sort of joking, so don’t flip out, teen, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty-somethings and beyond.
**PPS If my desi parents had let me go to a concert one year earlier, I could have said my first concert was the Clash instead of Adam Ant. Ahhhh, the injustice of growing up brown in America.
Thanks sumita 🙂 – I read the whole thread and thought, “it’s a bit like when men complain that women nag and women complain that men don’t listen…..’ The more things change, the more they don’t.
So, in the final analysis, the moral of the story is that this is a complex issue, it’s going to depend on one’s own personality (some of one’s experiences will be a result of what you’re like as a person — for better of for worse — others will be a result of other people’s personalities, and many will be a combination of the two), and of course where one happens to live/socialise. I think a lot of the more cynical/jaded/paranoid/ultra-demanding factors on the part of both desi men and women are, as Abhi alluded to, a result of certain big cities. London, as many people know, isn’t that different to New York in many ways, and quite a few of the things we’ve talked about are as irrelevant to the rest of the UK as (for example) New York life would be to certain parts of the American mid-west.
MD — My previous comment to you was more a form of friendly “FYI” — since I’m relatively new to SM — rather than any attempt to formally “correct” you. Yet another Indian doctor who can’t handle someone questioning or contradicting them*….As someone once said, “Oh dear”….
Semi-joke — my father’s a doctor so I’ve spent my whole life amongst the whole “Indian doctor” social environment…With everything that entails…I’m sure you know what I mean *laughing.
Abhi- (wrt comment #104)
you’re right– call me out. The part of the story (conveniently?) left out is that while these ridiculous immature thug-like behaviors may happen in little metro clubs and lounges and desi parties, night after night, having had these experiences makes the ladies grateful for the super-nice desi gentleman who walks with his hand protectively in the small of her back, who puffs up in defense of his lady when some drunk moron makes “karma sutra” comments in a club, and who brags to his friends about how drop-dead awesome she is from cooking to compassion to being able to hold her own in a debate of the various lineups of the G3 tours.
You caught me, Abhi. I got drunk on haterade.
[Mr. DesiDancer agrees that Yngwie Malmsteen was the weakest link on G3]
Hey DD, I didn’t mean to call anyone out. I probably over-reacted with the “vomit” line 🙂 Besides, your reference to Yngwie Malmsteen (who isn’t cited nearly enough) makes up for everything 🙂 Somewhere in my parent’s basement is a Malmsteen solo album.
Oh! What we’ve forced our Punjabi Boy to do! Heartbreaking!
What do you expect when people have been reared by National Geographic images. A lifetime of well intentioned informative PBS programming isn’t going to change the dominant meme. Tho’ I wish they would chill with the fackin tablas soundtrack.
There are even less abstract reasons why so many Indian women have been successful careerists in India: middleclass emphasis in the education of women in urban India. And by middle-class I don’t mean in the American context of comfortable middle-class, but Indian-middle class which means humble means, but the ability to clothe, feed, house, educate your kids. In the early 60s, two of Bombay’s most elite medical colleges had close to equal male-female ratios. They were completely meritocratic (not to mention municipal run and free). Daddy’s money, affirmative action, or the ability to play the tuba didn’t come to play. Take the test, score in the top 5%, you’re in. If not find something else to do. I don’t have to Google to know that weren’t any American medical schools at the time that could boast that. This is not a “cultural paradox” or an example of “island of paradise” in the midst of poverty.
10 years earlier Sandra Day O’Connor only received a job offer for a secretarial position after graduating 3rd in her class at Stanford. Is that anecdote any more telling than a particular set of parents setting a unreasonable curfew in East Bumfack.
How did this happen in such a backward horrible country like India:
Surfeit of smart women.*
Parents willing to invest in girls getting post-secondary education, understanding early marriage would not be an option for their daughters.
Progressive post-Partition municipal and federal government that didn’t put up barriers to higher education for women.
Millions of girls ofcourse are not even in the equation (see Desperate Poverty in the Third World)
Look at universities professorships, labs, IT centers, offices in urban centers in India: awash with women, not just of our generation, but our mother’s/massis too. Or look at Indian women in their 50s and 60s in positions of power in the US, they started their education in the Motherland. I could throw a stick from my downtown NY office and hit a overeducated Indian girl with MD/Phd, JD/Ma., whatever. I don’t think it’s just the Diasporic migration to the West that has produced this disproportionate number of “over”-educated, successful Indian women of our generation; their were raised in families where it was expected of them. Tis a shame most of them arent commenting/ blogging on Speia cuz they’re actually working. (Hit me up ladies, I’m a great cook!) My most recent trip to India was filled some of my uneducated unless bragging how their daughter secured spots at Prestigious American U/Indian Institute of Management.
If you are gonna respond with links to widow-burnings, amniocentesis/sex-selection, tribal gang-rapes, don’t bother. Or charges that the elites are different in every country, you are missing the point.
Other than that I generally agree with the other wailing Cassandras on the mic that almost all Indian guys are desperate oversexed buffoonish hairy oafs.
What, this isn’t a matrimonial site?
My mother has a PhD in Chemistry from early sixties from India…..long before, it became a norm in USA or west. A lot of progress in west is sometimes (not always) a “white wash” or “window dressing”.
In fact, there was a Science Article a couple of years ago, which showed that the number of female faculty in academia is lot higher in Poland, India, Hungary than USA, UK. Their hypothesis was family and support structure.
I can vouch for Science Article’s observations.
This said, the plight of lower income women in India or South Asia is horrible, and that percentage is huge.
BTW, do you guys have email address of Gayatri Joshi.
Middle-class women from developing countries seem far more hardcore re: career on average (excluding the female Manhattan i-banker extremes) than in the U.S. I’m guessing it’s due to economic necessity and a less sexualized culture.
its a long jump from guys groping you in a club and the place of widows in South Asian. there are probably links but if some guy is just going to go, “oh yeah I sure agree” I doubt he was listening to the actual information being presented
maybe in South Asia desi men run the show and maybe in individual families they have some kind of hegemony, but once you’re outside of those places, where most desi men are, they don’t really have all that much say/power. thats one of the thing that gets me. as a man of color there’s a lot of disempowering things going on as well for desi men. a lot.
i’m so there with a woman, a woman of color, a person speaking truth about things that make their life hard. as a man of color that makes sense to me. i do think you’re talking about people who are insulated into worlds of desi-ness
to answer that question, it is totally understandable that desi women want desi men to listen to what is trying to make things hard for them
my feeling is, on some level, when we step outside of the desi environment, where many of us are for most of our lives, stakes is high like De La Soul said and in those situations to me its just not relevent that a bunch of socially stunted people groping you at a club or even one gallant man protecting you from them is the be all and end all of how desi men and women relate
even if we’re not lovers, which i think there is no reason we can’t be, we can be allies. but that takes desi women seeing us as allies as well as desi men seeking out to be allies
I agree here. The US and other Western nations fall far short of the egalitarian ideal, in different ways. But I maintain they’re closer than India.
I can believe that. Trivandrum has many female academics. But the fact remains that female college students in Trivandrum must be back in their hostels by 7:30 pm or they’ll be locked out for the night, while male students are expected to roam late, no questions asked and zero consequences. There are double standards in the US too, but not to this degree.
Sie Ches
Nice post. As someone familiar with hordes of women like this, I think a huge difference is the ability of educated women in India to spend time on work rather than dating dilemmas and other dilemmas.
I did silly math like :
Time required to shop for clothes, shoes etc.. Time for manicures Time for haircut/color Daily, style one’s hair Take care of skin Gym meet up with friends and then cook clean yada yada yada
How much time does that leave to excel? At work? And then if they do get married and have kids. how much time does that leave for family roles? and still excel at work? Its possible(of course) but its a lot harder.
Something’s gotta give as time passes.
The partner hunting takes a huge chunk of women’s time and productive energy which may well be better utilised elsehwere. (I guess thats true for men too.)
Merely another angle. There are many others to this picture
But your point is valid and questions this whole assumption that women have it good in the US. I kind of tend to think its a gross overgeneralization and hence wince.
But then, what do I know?
Sumita
Sumita, kindly spare me your list of things which prevent marriage-crazed western women from achieving what you think is success. I know plenty of girls in India who are better “maintained” than their counterparts here.
Waxing, Manicures, Highlights…if anything, in school, when I first met Indian students who had been born and raised IN India, they were dismayed at the unkempt desi women that they encountered here. “WHY is their HAIR on your ARMS?!”
There’s so much crap on this thread I need wading boots.
Women do have it “good” here. We don’t get yoked to plows out of ignorance, misogyny and superstition.
Whatever it is you do know (or think you know), I’m sure we’ll hear it.
“The US and other Western nations fall far short of the egalitarian ideal, in different ways. But I maintain they’re closer than India.”
I agree with you 100%. Also, there is something to be said for western liberal democracies and its power.
However, walk into MIT, Harvard, Indiana U., UCLA, Texas A & M, Oregon State – more than half of graduate students, research scientists, and professors are not even American born and have never been. Who were the bedrock at Manhattan Project or Apollo Mission/ Rocketery progress? Ask, Abhi, he knows the history of NASA and the Alabama Germans.
This especially holds more true for female scientists.
I guess I sometimes get this special “manifest destiny” feeling more in 1.1-2.0th gen than in 8-9 th gen. I know quite a few 8-9th gen professors who make sure their lab has fair amount of “phoreners” – out of respect for their dedication.
If you’re saying US “education system” is a disgrace, I have to agree with you. The small silver lining is it leads to more educated “phoreners” on our campuses, which eventually trickles down to more interesting food. I likes my phoren phood.
1st gen desi women seem way more career-hardcore at the high achievement extremes than 2nd gen because of the immigration sieve. But it could also be because 2nd genners will only really come into their own re: career success in their 40s and 50s.
i think people have taken this thread to somewhere it was not going.
some desi men react when people call out their behavior on the basis of ethnicity because it strikes at a feeling of being vulnerable. i think its valid to feel that way