Per his wishes, slain U.S. citizen and Army soldier Hatim Kathiria was laid to rest in his home town of Dahod in the state of Gujarat. The BBC reports:
Thousands of mourners have attended the funeral in India’s Gujarat state of an Indian-born US soldier killed in Iraq.Hatim Kathiria, a 23-year-old Muslim, who died in a rocket attack in Baghdad on 22 August, was buried in his home town of Dahod.
I hate to sound cynical on such an occasion but this is the first time I’ve seen such a large public Muslim funeral reported in the media that was not for a “martyr” or an innocent victim of collateral damage. I know this is because such “regular” stories are not as sensational and so the media is uninterested, but it’s good to see an actual soldier being honored for giving his life in battle.
His mother, Shirin, said: “He was my only son. His ambitions took him to the US and then to Iraq. We lost him, but he died a martyr’s death.”
Damn, maybe I spoke too soon. It sucks that the word martyr has been co-opted by terrorists to the point where it’s hard to distinguish a true martyr (and I’m not sure if I know what qualifies a true martyr).
Of course there was also some drama that took place at the funeral. Kathiria’s parents apparently didn’t know he was married. Probably because the girl wasn’t Indian:
The crowd fell over each other to catch a glimpse of his Anglo Indian widow Lisse Jean Pierre, who reached Dahod along with the body.Amid rumours that Kathiria’s family was unaware about the marriage, which took place earlier this year, a jeans and T-shirt clad Ms Lisse – also a US army specialist – met her in-laws. However, sources said the women of the Bohra community were not allowed to talk to her. She was also kept away from the media, which was present in large number to cover the incident.
So tight was the security around the Hussaini Mosque, where the last rituals took place that not even his close relatives were allowed inside. “Normally, Bohra community is better known for its trading prowess but we are proud of Hatim as he joined the US Army and laid down his life for a cause,” Kathiria’s cousin Abuzar Mirchiwala said.
Sigh. Some things never change.
but itÂ’s good to see an actual soldier being honored for giving his life in battle.
Its only good if the war itself was honorable. There is nothing per se honorable about dying in a battle.
Agreed.
Let me get this straight, so you are saying that the people who have died in the war/battle are not worthy of proper honor, just because you believe that the war is dishonorable?
Let me get this straight, so you are saying that the people who have died in the war/battle are not worthy of proper honor, just because you believe that the war is dishonorable?
No, I was alluding to the fact that honoring a person who dies in a battle is not always a good thing because not all battles are honorable.
As far as Hatim goes, his motives eerily mirror the motives of a mercenary and not of a patriot who went to Iraq to defend his nation. From the numerous reports I have read about Hatim, there is incontrovertible evidence to suggest that he joined the military as a career move/expedite his citizenship application and not out of some patriotic duty. I honor the deaths of American GI’s who genuinely believed that they were going to Iraq to defend their nation.
His “wife” is from Dominican Republic (naturalized of course), so not sure where they got that “Anglo Indian” thing from.
It sure sounds bit like drama – she married him just one week before he left for Iraq? His Uncle – with whom he used to live – did not even know about the marriage till he died?
Kinda weird. That may be the reason his parents and relatives may have thought that she may not have married him and claims to have married solely to take the monies which will be due to him due to his death.
Al Mujahid you are right on these “greencard” soldiers. Here in San Jose every other week we see the story of a slain Hispanic soldier. Born to illegal parents or moved to US illegally when they were young, only way they can get legal quick is through the military route. So no wonder we are seeing more and more “brown” folks dying in Iraq who can’t speak proper English and whose parents are interviewed in Spanish or Hindi because they are illegal in the first place.
I won’t be surprised if there will be a bill in Congress to legalize these illegals whose sons and daughters died in Iraq.
Okay, I see your point, but do not agree. When I joined the military I joined for college money. I wanted to see the world, but never realized that I would be this patriotic toward the U.S. When the OEF emerged I had a choice to go and fight for my country or stay back in the states. I could not see myself saying NO. So, I went and I have never in my life done something more honorable. (I was not a citizen even when I went to OEF) I understand not everyone joins the military because they are patriotic, but that doesn’t lessen the “value” of their death. You can’t say he didn’t die honorably b/c he joined the military to expedite his citizenship. Atleast he went and joined the military. I know many American citizens that would never dream of joining the military b/c they are too afraid or not ‘PATRIOTIC’.
Personally, I think the Indians who come to this country only to make money or get a better job than they could in India are green-card mercenaries, just like AM, I only respect people who came to Amrica out of a love of liberty. Who are these people who come here only to make money and go back to India every six months to show off to their families how ‘rich’ they’ve become here in the US?
Ever look at pictures of front line troops? What color are they, mostly, my fine brown bean counters?
Really. What a moronic argument. Soldiers have lots of reasons they serve, AM, and they are perfectly valid reasons. Whatever Hatim’s personal desires, he did his duty, which is no small thing in this world. God rest his soul and sympathies to his family.
Ok, latest from Ahmedabad – widow stays with family:
http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=147199
They were more than eager to listen to what Lissy had to say about her experiences since, on Sunday, she only spoke to the mother and the sisters. Meanwhile, the family rubbished rumours that they did not accept Lissy as HatimÂ’s wife.
Despite the fact that they knew about the marriage only after HatimÂ’s death, they said they had no problems in accepting the woman from Dominican Republic.
‘‘We have seen the marriage certificate and there is no doubt that Lissy is Hatim’s wife. We have already accepted the marriage and there is no question of disapproving her,’’ said Ali Asghar Contractor, Hatim’s uncle, who is the only one who spoke to the media
just a mild reality check in case this gets into one of those black and hispanics are dying in iraq threads….
native american .88% asian 1.75% black 10.84% hispanic 11.00% multiple races, etc. 1.15% hawaiian or pacific islander 1.04% white 73.34%
hawaiian’s are WAY LESS than 1% of our population. blacks and hispanics are dying at rates lower than their representation in the generaltin population, and definitely lower than in their age bracket for the military, while whites at a somewhat higher clip.
This shouldn’t be about what race is dying the most? Death is death, soldiers who are fighting in war aren’t looking at how many black, white, brown, green soldiers died today. Only the civilian are looking at that.
I agree with MD, that he did his duty and anyone who has knows that it is nothing small. It is easy for people to sit back and criticize why people join the military. What differece does it make what reason they had to join the military. They joined, faught and DIED. Let’s honor ALL the soldiers who have died regardless of their reason for joining.
Really. What a moronic argument. Soldiers have lots of reasons they serve, AM, and they are perfectly valid reasons. Whatever Hatim’s personal desires, he did his duty, which is no small thing in this world. God rest his soul and sympathies to his family.
Duty to serve ? He was an Indian citizen when he joined the military. I am not sure what duty was he under to go join the volunteer army in Iraq especially in the early stages of the war when there was no dearth in army recruitment.
I am not suggesting that his death was dishonorable. I just dont think the death of a citizenship merncenary working to fix computers in Iraq was necessarily ‘honorable’.
Razib, I loved you before this last comment of yours, now I love you even more. Thank you for setting this race myth down.
MD, I wonder how many immigrants every came to the US because of a ‘love for liberty’. What exactly is that phrase supposed to mean anyway?
People emigrate in order for better opportunities or in order to flee persecution, none of which reflects a ‘love for liberty’.
Besides, why exactly is it bad to want a green card by legitimate means?
MD
That made me smile a lot.
You are not familiar with how immigration works then. When one applies for a visa, its the financial stability that makes for a stronger case, rather than “love of liberty.” Also, owning property is a greater proof of loyalty to land( as i found out while working in a southern state) than one’s wellmeaning sincerity.
The “love of liberty” does not create credit history, neither does it create drivers licenses with greater than one year validity.It does not bring employment, neither does it bring opportunity.
Its a noble thought. In principle one would agree. That is not how the system is designed though. (of becoming an American)
Its easy to prove one’s love of liberty when one is free. Money does provide that freedom and respectability, at least in America. (and in most of the world)For others its a constant struggle.
Sumita
They joined, faught and DIED. Let’s honor ALL the soldiers who have died regardless of their reason for joining.
I am uncomfortable with these blanket statements which demand honor for all soldiers killed in any war. You can die storming the Nazis in Normandy or you can die while killing innocents in My Lai. Are the deaths of Iraqi conscripts who got incinerated in their tanks by the American bombers as honorable as the deaths of Indonesian cooks in American camps in Iraq ? Are all lives lost on a battlefield ‘honorable’ period ?
The poor guy died. His motives are in question. He did not have money to prove his introlocuters wrong even with his life.
This is a true tragedy.
Sumita
That statement almost made me cry. Very well-put.
This is even more sad.
“He was supposed to visit India after two months and take his parents along with him to the United States. It is really a painful incident as he was the only breadwinner in his family and the financial condition of his parents is not sound,”
Poverty is a bitch.
Apologies for not making myself clear. I was referring to the American Soldiers died or have gotten wounded in war. Killing innocent people is NEVER honorable. At the same time remember Mogadishu and how women were hiding the men who were shooting at the Rangers? I agree with killing that woman who was harboring that gunman. Did the My Lai tragedy gave the right to the people to spit on the American soldiers when returned from Viet Nam? Does individual incedents give right to the American people to call and refer to all American soldiers as ‘baby killers’? That has happen to soldiers who have served in OEF and OIF.
Did he have multiple wives, or is this just bad reporting? The Telegraph reports a different name and a different getup:
More photos of the funeral.
Its a mistake to judge soldiers who are small pawns in a larger game. Most of them join through either economic reasons, or through idealism which very well might be misplaced frequently.
The ones in power are free to make these choices. Soldiers are not empowered to make independent decisions. Military training is all about subverting free will and becoming automatons in a chain of command that comes from the top. the history of psychological research will bear out this fact.
To hold an individual solidier responsible is shifting the issue elsewhere. The focus must always be the source, not its symptom. This death is the symptom of “something not quite right”
The source is elsewhere.
Sumita
Sumita
http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/04/10/int04050.html
Cindy sheehan has been in news too. Many have laughed at her, saying her son made a mistake in enlisting for an “immoral” war. Maybe.But, young people are driven by an idealistic zeal to fight for what they hold true. Is the idealism wrong? or misuse of that idealism wrong?
These are questions for American leaders. The young in this country are clearly torn. How can they not be? How does it feel to be manipulated emotionally?
Not quite right again, this time in the idealism realm. The earlier case was in the monetary motive realm. Both are symptoms of the same source of problem. Sumita
Spoken like a true 2nd generation sheltered, driven to soccer practice (for staged activities) … person! What is wrong about coming to US for MONEY and MONEY alone. I came to US for opportunities (which translates into MONEY) but found the freedoms and environment great and ended up loving this country. But I am NOT ASHAMED to SAY that I came here for MONEY… Ask your parents they would answer the same way…
ALmd said,
Agree completely. I dont see any honor in completely leveling Fallujah and killing untold thousands of civilians to avenge the death of four American mercenaries. None what so ever.!!!
This thread makes me cry. It is a true tragedy that this soldier died and now we are here agrguing about why he joined and if it was honorable or not. I sympathize with his family and his wife. My heart goes out to his family and his wife.
I went to OEF and saw many friends, whom I have spent many months and even years with come back in a body bag after they left for a mission. I have attended memorial services for soldiers who I have known for 6-7 years. To me every life lost will be a honorable death. I will stand by that till I die, b/c if I don’t I feel that their sacrifice will be unnoticed or even tainted like this poor soul’s. I’m thankful every morning when I wake up that I am still alive, and there is not a day goes by that I don’t remember them. I am losing friends as I sit here and type. So you guys enjoy mutilation of U.S. soldier’s including AM’s credibility b/c I can’t take a part in this anymore.
Like I said before it is easy to sit in the comfort of your home and criticize the military and the soldiers.
I was being sarcastic RC. I was trying to satirize AM and his silly comments.
Been there – sorry.
Let me clarify one thing. I dont question anyone’s motivation to join the Army. Its an honorable profession. I have family members who serve (actually served) in Indian Army. I cant think of passing a judgement on anyone’s motivation to join the army.
I have nothing but respect for those who enlist. Its a dangerous job and I respect those who take the dangerous path when other easier paths are available.
I am profoundly sorry for the loss and cant imagine how it must have felt to his family and freinds.
My issue is only with loaded words such as martyr. My issue is with those who are making decisions and NOT AT all with the soldiers who continue to do honorable job in dangerous conditions.
Interesting discussion. Here’s my 5 cents.
It is not dying in battle itself which automatically renders one’s death honourable, but the righteousness of the cause for which one dies. Not all warriors who die on the battlefield (or indeed in any other struggle) are automatically “martyrs” — only those who ally themselves with the “right” cause are, and this does not necessarily always mean dying for your country, or for your religion, or whatever. It depends on the exact reason why one is waging war and the methods by which that war is conducted. Even then, their deaths should not deliberately take the lives of any innocents with them. This applies to warfare in the conventional sense as well as conflicts which involve fighting in civilian areas — I’m not just talking about the somewhat-pertinent topic of suicide bombers as per 7/7 etc.
Furthemore, warfare is not just about potentially giving one’s own life — it is about taking other people’s lives too. To paraphrase what Been There said in one of his messages, killing people in battle is no small thing. You are extinguishing another human being’s life — bringing the course of decades of their existence to an end, along with terminating all their future plans, all their hopes and dreams, severing all their emotional connections with their loved ones, and quite possibly simultaneously killing someone’s husband, father, son, brother etc in the process. Taking someone’s life in battle has repercussions one isn’t even necessarily going to be directly aware of — the ripples will spread out and heavily impact those closest to them for many years to come, along with affecting the lives of other people who may have had any number of (hopefully positive) associations/interactions with them during the course of their earthly lifetime.
As I said, taking another human being’s life is an absolutely huge matter. Even in a “righteous cause”. So, if you have any choice in the matter, you had better be damn sure that you are justified in taking this course of action and that your motivations are honourable, because the subsequent impact on any adversary whose life you take — and the effect on everyone closely connected to them — is going to be enormous. Which means you should not fight for personal ego, or to gain territory, or for plunder, or because you think that giving your own life or indeed taking the lives of those on the opposing side is going to guarantee you a ticket into whatever you regard as heaven.
Unfortunately, we don’t live in an ideal world, so not everyone is necessarily going to have the luxury of becoming a soldier for only the “right” reasons and under the command of military leaders who use “morally correct” strategies. Some people will indeed end up joining armies — regardless of which part of the world they live in — because they have been grossly misguided/misled/misinformed by their leaders, or their religious authorities, or because they cannot get a job in any other field (for one reason or another) and, in extreme circumstances, because they are so poverty-stricken and desperate for an income that they will indeed have to resort to joining the military. And again, this drastic step will involve them having to put their own lives on the line, and taking the lives of others, all of this not necessarily for honourable reasons.
If I may draw on an example from Sikh history, Guru Gobind Singh often used arrows tipped with blocks of gold, because he knew that the common soldiers facing him on the Mughal side were often fighting him only because they had no choice in the matter and so that they could put some food on the table; therefore, his intention was that the gold would be used by the families of fallen soldiers — obviously killed by his hand — to give them a decent burial (which not all families would have been able to afford, especially the very poor ones).
Once a soldier has died in battle, he deserves to at least be given a proper burial/cremation/etc with proper military and/or religious rites as per his background — even if those rites are conducted by you as a previously-“enemy” soldier (it’s not always possible to return dead bodies to the fallen soldiers’ own people). There are no distinctions in death; our own man-made earthly differentiations are left behind and irrelevant. People fight and die for multiple reasons as mentioned previously, and once they are gone, that’s the end of the matter — their earthly identity is finished — and they deserve our compassion. If their motivations for fighting were “wrong”, they will have to face the consequences afterwards and they’re certainly out of our hands by that time. People do all kinds of misguided things in their lives; sometimes this is their own fault, sometimes not, and sometimes it’s a combination of the two.
If someone consciously becomes involved in the “wrong” war for the “wrong” reasons, he/she is the person who will have to bear the brunt of the repercussions of his/her actions, choices, and decisions. We can acknowledge that they may perhaps have been misguided in their thinking and subsequent behaviour, but there should be a limit on our judgementalism. At the end of the day, we’re all fellow human beings going through the basic same struggles, trials and tribulations in our lives on this planet, and although many of our actions and attitudes may be incompatible and potentially even adversarial, ultimately there are no “enemies” in death.
RC, how could you not get that I was being sarcastic? I think money is a perfectly good reason to move to the US – to provide for your family and make a better life. How can you be so clueless? I mean, how could you not get that I was making fun of that sort of attitude?
And, again, been there, I’m sorry to turn this thread into this fight but AM cast such a negative pall over things, as usual – he basically put down Hatim and I think that’s wrong in this thread. All I did was call him on it.
And RC, have you looked at the UN’s latest casualty figures for Iraqi civilians? Considerably less than the numbers reported in that flawed Lancet article. And what do you suppose life was like in Fallujah when the jihadis’ had control of it? It was a mini Taliban in control treating the citizens as, well, the Taliban would.
Sumita, TPG and RC :
I believe MD was being sarcastic when she said this.
Jai
5 cents? smile This was worth a fortune.
This post, if one could, should be made required reading for young people joining the military.
Great understanding of Sikh history and its military aspect and the the meaning of use of force!!
Sumita
Jai Singh,
Excellent write up.
I am under a deadline but did read your piece.
People should read books/ stories like “All Quiet on the Western Front”, “From Whom the Bells Toll”, “Usne Kha Tha”, “A Time to Love, A Time to Die” before they on the jingoistic binge.
Kush
RC, First of all I am a Indian chokari, who was not a ‘citizen’ yet, went to war in the U.S. Army, to the middle east. One doesn’t have time to reflect and think of their choices when they are in a fire fight, if they should kill the person in front of them. It’s instinct. The soldier doesn’t have time to think that ‘oh man if I shoot this man or woman it’s going to be someone’s wife, husband, son, daughter. The soldier sees a threat and it’s eliminated. If it’s going to be between that person or myself, I can put my life on it and say it’s going to be the person in front of me. I know many people on this blog will not agree with that, b/c only people put in that situation could understand why I say this.
MD, thanks.
RC, I know and the other soldiers know as well, that most of the public is against the policy makers but the soldiers do see negativity oozing out of the people and the lack of support. (protesting the war in front of the VA building, what is that?)
What if a soldier who is there right now might read this thread and can you imagine what it would do to his/her morale? Soldier’s morale is damaged by many things and reading this and lack of honoring the soldiers who have gave the ultimate sacrifice would a big blow. So please think twice before passing judgement.
Sumita, I understand why you might say it should be a required reading. But, take it from me, one can’t learn about use of force by reading or can’t learn everything about taking life, war and the effects of war from reading books, blogs and watching TV. It is an experience that one can never prepare for by reading.
Personally, I think the Indians who come to this country only to make money or get a better job than they could in India are green-card mercenaries, just like AM, I only respect people who came to Amrica out of a love of liberty.
I suppose you are being sarcastic 🙂 But, would you attribute ‘honorable death’ to the green card mercenaries, if they die in the process?
To hold an individual solidier responsible is shifting the issue elsewhere. The focus must always be the source, not its symptom.
I too think that the bigger responsibility lies with the commander-in-chief, not the individual soldier. At the same time, the individual bears some responsibility as well – this is reflected in Geneva convention. our predicament in this Iraq war is that clearly this war was illegal, but there is no world body or country that could do anything against this brazen invasion. The only people who fight against this invasion militarily would make everyone sick with their nasty tactics. In the larger social behavioural context, when something goes on for a while, and if nobody objects to it, it better be right, and that is what we are seeing in this war as well, and we find it hard to blame the soldiers – even blaming the president for going in to war is ‘pointless’ in American media. Also, this whole buzz is because the guy died for America, how many Indians serve in Middle East and die there too, and we never see a word about that.
Al Mujahid: Can u give us some backgound about when,how and why your parents came to USA? If I am wrong in assuming u r a 2nd generation American I am sorry.
Also I am interested to know if you ever had to work your way through college or did your parents pay for it? What schools did u attend? Did you ever have to consider joining the military so that you could get an education or a job? Did you ever have to struggle for money at all?
I think your answering these questions would help a lot in judging your blanket statements. I dont want to call u a spoilt psuedo elitist without giving you a chance to defend your statements.
This might be a language issue, but we need not turn jingoistic and use the martyr word willy-nilly. The death of Hatim is unfortunate and he and his family deserve our sympathies. That being said, people take risky jobs due to desparate circumstances and some of them die in the process (crossing the arizona border, working in coal mines, working in high elevation construction etc etc). This doesn’t make them martyrs (one of Al Muj’s points, I think). If it does, then the word has been cheapened and we need a separate word to describe the White army major who is a US citizen, who gives up a cushy job, leaves his family behind and dies in the line of battle defending his principles. Then there is the mercenary angle which would make Hatim’s case for martyrdom even weaker.
Been there
Cannot agree more. Reading is a poor second to real life experience. But its a good preparation, in the absence of experience.
The real thing has a gravity that no amount of reading has. Very true.
Sumita
I’m sorry to turn this thread into this fight but AM cast such a negative pall over things, as usual
MD, ‘As usual’! I am going to contest this ‘as usual’ accusation. I dont think I am the ‘negative bitch’ of Sepia 😉
Al Mujahid: Can u give us some backgound about when,how and why your parents came to USA? If I am wrong in assuming u r a 2nd generation American I am sorry.
Also I am interested to know if you ever had to work your way through college or did your parents pay for it? What schools did u attend? Did you ever have to consider joining the military so that you could get an education or a job? Did you ever have to struggle for money at all?
Sorry, but where I went to college has no relevance to our discussion here and even if it did I am not going to post it here.
Ok, as I am being villified, let me reiterate my position.
I am ambivalent at best on the Iraq war (this is how I feel now) and I can see both the good and the bad that have come out of it.
I respect and honor all the kids who joined the military after 9-11 to defend this nation, I and I will mourn their deaths in Iraq. I had National Guard classmates in Law School who left school to fight in Afghanistan and now Iraq and I feel for their families and worry about them.
I also honor the deaths of all American GIs who believed that America was under attack by Iraq and went to Iraq to protect America.
I first took issue with the statement that its good to honor any death on a battlefield irrespective of the legitimacy of the war or the motives of the soldier.
I then took issue with the specific case of Hatim, where he is being characterized as a martyr who died an honorable death. This does not mean Hatim’s death was dishonorable. However I do believe that there is ample evidence of his own words and the words of his family to suggest that he was a citizenship mercenary. I have seen nothing to contradict my belief. So I am going to mourn his death, just like I mourn the deaths of thousands of Iraqi conscripts killed by the coalition forces in the first week of war, just like I mourn the deaths of the private contractors who worked for Blackwell or the cooks from Thailand/South India who serve food in Kuwait and Basra. All these people were innocent and its sad and unfortunate that they were killed and I feel for their families. However I am not going to turn them or Hatim into martyrs ( for which he died, the great cause of expediting his citizenship application notwithstanding)
AM, it’s Blackwater from N.C. not blackwell.
AM, it’s Blackwater from N.C. not blackwell.
Ok, thanks for the correction.
I never passed judgement on a soldier’s choice. I would never do that.
I have family members who served in the military of India. My brother almost joined the Indian Army (EME). So I am military family too.
While I respect your courageous choice of serving in the military, I reserve my right to criticize what I see as wrong and immoral policy. My only problem is with policy-makers.
been there,
do you believe that the iraqi conscripts who were killed by the coalition forces (before baghdad fell in the first 3 days of war) while they were manning their positions, died honorable deaths as martyrs ?
RC, that statement was not meant for you specifically. I understand that most of the people have problems with the policy makers. What I am trying to say is it crosses the line sometimes.
(i am sure you are all familiar with this) For example: http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=%5CSpecialReports%5Carchive%5C200508%5CSPE20050825a.html
AND http://www.blackfive.net/main/2005/08/protesting_walt.html
There is no need to do this in front of the biggest military VA hospital or any VA hospital at that.
You definitely have the right to your opinion.
Of course they died an honorable death. Some died fighting for what they believed in, and other died b/c they were made to fight. Some of the soldiers who were made to fight, faught to keep their families alive, and I think that’s honorable. Just because I am a soldier that doesn’t mean I am cold blooded. It’s was just as bad to see the death of an Afghani as it was to see the death of an American. Death in war is horrific. Ofcourse seeing your friends die, that you have know for years, effects one differently, than seeing the death of the person who was shooting at your friend. That doesn’t mean I don’t mourn the guy’s death.
Al Mujahid: I dont understand why u think its in anyway dishonorable to join,fight and die in the military if they were not US citizens to start with. So what if their motivation is to finally end up with a better life as a citizen of USA?
Was Alexander Hamilton a mercenary?
What about all the black soldiers who fought on the promise of freedom both during the revolutionary war and the civil war?
Do you know of the Irish who fought in the civil war or about the Italians in WWI and WWII?
There are countless such examples in America’s history.
Many first generation immigrants make compromises, wrestle with their identities, take risks , forsake many comforts, swallow many indignities, face ridicule; all for a greencard; all so that their families and children can have a better life and one day hopefully wont have to go through what they themselves did. So that their kids can be lawyers,engineers or doctors or whatever.
If all this is difficult for you to understand and appreciate, you probably need to have a conversation with someone in your family who came on the boat.
If you are going to vilify a dead mans memory who cannot defend his motives or explain his reasons by calling him a mercenary, atleast back up your statements with facts.
Very well put Aten.
Ok then let’s mix it up. There are two types of insurgents in Iraq. Foreign fighters who come to Iraq to kill Americans soldiers, and native fighters who think the U.S. is occuypying their land. The foreign fighters for the most part target everyone. U.S. troops, women, children, you name it. They are terrorists pure and simple. The second group, the native Iraqis believe they are freedom fighters trying to kick out an occupying force. Many of them (but not all) hate the foreign fighters terrorist tactics because they are killing fellow Iraqis. At the same time however this native insurgent group uses every guerrila warfare tactic at their means to kill Americans. This includes roadside bombs that they plant in the night. So my question is, if an native Iraqi freedom fighter leaves an IED that blows up a tank and kill American soldiers, and then five minutes later he is hunted down and killed by U.S. troops, did he die with honor? If the answer is “no” then explain to me why.
Aten, This is how you started this post,
Al Mujahid: I dont understand why u think its in anyway dishonorable to join,fight and die in the military if they were not US citizens to start with
I believe you dont read my posts. If you did read my postS, you might have seen me write:
post # 12,
I am not suggesting that his death was dishonorable.
and then my post # 39, where I repeated the same thing,
This does not mean Hatim’s death was dishonorable.
If all this is difficult for you to understand and appreciate, you probably need to have a conversation with someone in your family who came on the boat.
You need to work on your ‘boat’ issues buddy. They are obviously traumatizing you.