You either convert (atleast give yourself a nice hindu name on this blog) or stay out.
Would you actually be pompous and arrogant enough to suggest that Indian Christians (and there are quite a few of them) not post here unless they use a “Hindu name”? Sorry, rhetorical question. [linky]
Mind if I cut in, Eric? Thank you, you are too sweet.
Ah, the politics of nomenclature, a subject I am completely sick ofÂ…whether it involves self-identification or the process and meaning behind my own name, it all makes me so weary.
I wonÂ’t delve into the former, but I will heroically belly flop into the latter. My name isnÂ’t good enough for anyone. Malayalees wonder why I have my “house” name, since apparently thatÂ’s uncommon among my “I-have-two-to-three-first-names-but-no-surname” cohort, people who arenÂ’t Brown wonder why I have an “American” or “Western” name, when IÂ’m obviously part of a more exotic faith and non-Mallus, especially Northies for some bizarre reason, wonder what my REAL name is, because it canÂ’t possibly be Anna, even if I am a Jesus-freak from the dirrrty South (of India. Y’all).
The best situation is when I am rebuked for my “obvious”, self-hatred. Predictably, the disapproval usually comes from non-Desis but I once notably received similar treatment from two recent South Asian immigrants. Here’s what a convo with the unBrown sounded like:
“No, really, what’s ‘Anna’ short for?”
“Nothing.”
“You don’t have to be embarrassed, just tell me. ‘Anna’ can’t be your REAL name.”
“I’m not, I have nothing TO tell and I promise you, it is.”
“Come on…you shouldn’t be ashamed of who you are.”
“Do you do this to White people named ‘Anna’ as well? I’m massively curious…”
Something else which leaves me curious: how surprised certain readers are when I tell them Mutineer Vinod is Christian like me (he’s Catholic, in case like Razib, you know about such things and care). Damn it, Vinod. Quit confusing people with your stealthy, appositely-Hindu-sounding name. 😉
It almost seems unfair for any of the 26 little letters (in this language, at least) to bear the burden of so much responsibility…even if they are divided into groups, before being sent out on “Mission: NAME”. So what. Do the letters “A” and “N” look THAT strong to you? Even if I have matching sets of each, in a powerful palindrome formation, are they sturdy enough to bear the crushing weight of history, religion, tradition and parental devotion? Pah. Be serious.
:+:
In 1994, I discovered the Internet. Yes, that would make me the tech-tard among my co-Mutineers, half of whom told Bill Gates what to do after he hired them straight out of their Montessori preschools. 😉 Pine was aight, but IRCÂ…ah, the hours I wasted on reality-numbing IRC, absorbing all that “Channel” Kerala had to offer this uber-Bounty Bar of a sorority girl. I also played around on various newsgroups, like ACK. THAT is where I learned what a “flame” was, ladkas and ladkis. And I still remember a particularly fiery comment or email, which burned like fresh habanero paste applied to the eyes. It was something likeÂ…
”What do you know? You’re not Hindu so you’re not a real Indian, now STFU.”
Shudder
Eric, I wouldÂ’ve been so happy to respond back with an answer like yoursÂ…
Eric, what u christian (assumption from the name) understand about us Hindoos.
A pretty lame assumption. Both of my parents are officially Jain, and in reality (like many Jains) practice a syncretic blend of Jainism and Hinduism. Ever heard of Indian immigrants giving non-Indian names to their kids? [linky]
But I couldnÂ’t say that. Both of MY parents are officially Jacobite, and in reality (like practically no Mallus) they practiced a syncretic blend of the Indian and Greek Orthodox traditions.
And that’s when the “confusion” first reared its shitty, unwanted head. Could I be “Indian” without being Hindu?
(IÂ’m skimming through this after writing it, and as I read that last question, I heard Sarah Jessica ParkerÂ’s voice instead of my own, while picturing the letters getting tapped out on her fake Mac screenÂ…go on and enjoy that wee bit of random if there are any SATC-heads out there)
Could I be a “real” desi while introducing myself with a boring, biblical name? If I didn’t partake in any of the rituals or festivals that the ISA would have held at UC Davis, had they not been banned the year before I commenced studying there, could I still be down?
We all know the answers to all of that pookel/thooni-gazing NOW, but when I was 18-19, I wasnÂ’t anyone close to the adamantine terror I am today.
All of this emotion, brought back so quickly it made me light-headed, by a careless comment that has now been…recanted? It was apparently meant sarcastically? Look, I do not doubt that the person who was having that dialogue with Eric was sarcastic; if he says he didnÂ’t really mean it, IÂ’ll buy that and IÂ’ll take a case of it, thanks. What I donÂ’t feel like purchasing is that icky, “you donÂ’t belong here” vibe, which I hate, like all mammals do. I especially loathe it in this space, where I want everyone to feel welcome, jackasses, bores and eeyores excluded.
Even if you don’t mean stuff like “either convert or get out” or “use a Hindu name as your handle on SM”, I’m left preoccupied by what sort of history nurtures such sentiments, which are tossed out sans souci. None of us is innocent; we all have to brawl with very powerful inner forces, which threaten to ruin the best parts of our souls. We all have thoughts we would never admit to, in public, especially on the Internet, where nothing ever goes away.
I’m not singling anyone out or expecting admissions of guilt, but I hope that deep inside each of “you”, the “OnlyHindusAreIndians”-monster doesn’t lurk in the dark, lush emotional rainforests within. I’ve read criticisms of this blog which insist that such terrible demons do exist, that SM smells like mean spirit, nationalism, J-I-N-G-O and Jingo was our name-o. That people who are not
straight
affluent
Y-chromosome-carrying
descendants of that famed post-1965-era
of immigrants from India
aren’t welcome. I heard that and first I was bothered, then I was saddened and finally I was serene. IÂ’d prefer to affix the prefix “Polly-“ to my non-Hindu, Indian first name and believe in the best of our little Sepia-colored community.
I do apologize for the lame assumption.
Apology accepted. Sorry for not noticing the sarcasm.
Ah, and there it is. My faith in the collective goodness of SM’s readers (which never wavered) is vindicated. 🙂 Doesn’t Pollyanna sound like it could be a desi name? Especially if given to a Mallu child whose siblings are Paul and Penelope? 😉
This guy is half-brown and he used to play for UCLA.
Am curious about one thing though. In your view, does the identity of American Brown (I have no experience of what that means) differ from that of an Indian?
Am very interested in knowing how you perceive these differences(or similarities) as related to desis from desiland(namely India)
After being in this blog for a week, one thing that drives everybody to this site, is that BROWNESS (oh! did I discover something new). Atleast there is something common that drives all us here. Thats a great identity. Yes be a proud brown. Even though we have so many differences, the aim of this blog is to look into our identity, know it, understand it and march forward.
Me as a desi from desiland (I like this name desiland), when I landed here for my masters, I really didnt have a clue about how to interact with my fellow countrymen from India. Me being a Tamil, never stepped that much out of TamilNadu, proud about being a Tamil, ocassional visits to Bangalore and Thirupathi. The main barrier is the language in interacting with other fellow desis. Even though I studied Hindi (courtesy: Hindi Prachar Sabha). Never had the guts to communicate in Hindi, fear of being ridculed. I took the easiest path, started moving more with Tamils. You could see a whole big Telugu group and then the hindi group among FOB’s in universities. I always wanted to move with others from India. When I did move with others, my Tamil friends will look (smirk and comments) at me in a way like ‘what I am doing there’. Being ridculed from both the sides, I decided that I dont want any links with any particular group. Me as an individual I am more than this language differences and decided to live my own life.
After finishing my masters, not getting any real time job, decided to venture out on my own. I moved to Ocean City, MD. Started working in Hotels, restaurants over there. Lived there for an year. Started interacting with Russians, Romanians, Estonians, Lithuanians, turkish(all those baltic countries), cameroonians, Nepalis. Yes students from all over Europe, they come to Ocean City during each summer. They work their ass of, earn money and go back to their country once the summer is over. Wow, now I really enjoyed living with new people. No language barrier. The quintessential English helped me in making new friends. Sudden respect, sudden confidence, sudden new me. Wow I loved that experience.
Now , I got my job in my area of study. Working. living with people from bombay. Interacting with people in Hindi. Even sometimes cracking jokes in Hindi One thing I learned from my Ocean City experience is look people as human beings and not as what color he is and dont try to limit him into the color boundary and by that process dont limit yourself. Explore who you are. Thats very important. Enjoy the whole experience. Thats what matters.
Am I really that boring, Sorry if I am. Just thought of sharing my experience in this wonderful blog.
Dont look at the glass, look beyond the glass
FOBish,
Man, you are not Desi (can’t be), you have guts. I am sure you see things with a wider prism.
Write a blog on your Ocean City experience.
Kush,
I love reading others experiences, so that I could learn something from them.
Me writing my own blog. That a good idea…I am thinking of one…may be down the line….
Rajeev Srinivasa Venkata Narayana Krishnamoorthy Padigondla:
i would’ve found the “FRIENDS” quote cute and hilarious had you not been so rude earlier. no one is whining, it’s just a discussion that obviously needed to occur, since we’re in the triple-digit comment mark. if it’s not relevant to you, move on.
nearly every brown kid who’s grown up here has SOME story about their name, how it was mangled, forcibly changed, remade in to an insult, a source of joy etc. let people talk. why be such a jerk about it? also? there’s nothing wrong with any car which has a little propellor in front of it. and some frappuccinos are GOOD. so there.
nirali,
I know of people who decided to have their kids’ last names be their gotra names, even though they themselves did not have it as their last names.
.
Did I upset you! Is it still worth continuing to live. I will figure out how to win your approval or will die trying.
Let me pose the question back to you. I thought I was also talking. Or do I have to echo excatly what others were saying. You might have a problem with my tone but I couldn’t stand the self absorption froth. Yes, I could have moved on but the better angels lost out to the other side. but honestly,I do take a certain pleasure in muddying the waters.
Have a nice weekend.
chris, re: “know thyself” i was actually just making a generic allusion to the motto at the oracle of delphi, not socrates (wiki says socrates picked it up from there though).
re: brown. i’m brown cuz:
1) i look brown (how people perceive me and my genetic-historical origin). 2) i eat brown (spicier than most browns from what i can tell). 3) i have a fair # of derived brown characteristics which aren’t central to my self-image and which i will not likely pass onto my children. to give an example, my muslim familial origin means that i don’t like eating ham because it was always a taboo meat*, but i’m not attached to that preference (which is good, my lady has made it clear if we stay together and have kids they will eat pork chops at least once).
nevertheless, in real life (face to face) i don’t really socialize with browns (there aren’t that many in my area), and i’ve lived in 90%+ (often 99%) white areas most of my life. i subscribe to a lot of the psychologist judith rich harris’ ideas in the nurture assumption, so i think peer groups are often determinative, and my peer groups were not brown, and likely won’t be (at least dominantly or consciously).
brown identity formation does have some impact on my life. many people view me through a brown prism, so what brown becomes in the american mind (as browns develop a post-immigrant identity) is of relevance to me. i am concerned that it not become antagonistic to the central tendency of american culture (as i see to some extent among some of my asian american “activist” friends or among some latino “aztlan” types). but reading this weblog for the past year, and becoming a more frequenter commenter, i haven’t seen much of that at all. so most of my concerns have been allayed on that angle (this is partly i think due to the higher SES skew of people around here, so there is less material alienation to serve as fodder for the fire).
i have little first order connections to or resonance with the brown popular culture motifs that many here allude too (brown books, bollywood, etc.), but i am interested as an outsider, in part because i can speak in a more authoritative fashion to my non-brown friends and acquaintances when they look to me for brown non-book learning wisdom (though i give them standard caveat that it is vicarious data, not direct experience). from an anthropological perspective it is interesting to watch people from various parts of south asia, who (or whose families) had a loose affinity with each other that was implicit be thrown together as a relatively unitary category in a land where brownness is salient in a way that it wasn’t in south asia. i am curious as to what norms will come out on top, and what identity characteristics will become modal. i think in the end that the final identity, if it is not epiphenomonal, will be brown flavored american, rather than american flavored brown.
p.s. i have siblings who are 10-15 years younger than i, and one of them watches hindi films, so there is variation within my own family as regards to the centrality of brown identity characteristics.
razib,
“Know Thyself” is not a generic allusion. It is a direct quotation. I don’t think I have to explain the difference.
But let’s be generous and forget the labelling mistake.
You seem to now say that you meant to generically allude to the motto of the messenger of the God Apollo? If so, isn’t that enough of a voluntary dose (via allusion or no) of mysticism to fatally toxify “the atheist” several times over?
Better to have stuck it out with Socrates – the process he innovated was rational.
You will not gain a meaningful knowledge of the ancient world through wiki.
very best, Christopher
i’ve never grapled with who i was. people in my family have anglo names and i wonder how they feel. i myself have considered an anglo name as a easier way to go about things. but in my heart i know and like who i think i am, independent of anything else. my identity is a mixture of family lore, reading history, my faith as a sikh, and the general attitude of how i grew up. i am a punjabi jat sikh and i love that, and am totally comfortable with it. i may dress in whatever clothes, eat whatever food, partake in any holiday, date whoever, although i like jattis, and i will always love being a jat sikh from punjab.
i think this is similiar to udham singh or bhagat singh, who lived lives far removed from what a normative jat sikh from punjab was, but they ended up being almost part of the normative
i have never questioned who i was or where i came from, or the value of that virsa.
it gives me a chill to even type the word virsa
its not even a question of forgetting that heritage, my ma boli. even if i remember only a sentence, until my last breath thats all i need to feel those chills. i’ve matured regarding identity, but i will always feel chills when i think about sada desh punjab. i don’t have a vision of punjab as a perfect place, it certainly is not. but it is where my blood sprang, and i may never live there again, but punjab will always live in me
i’m not jingoistic about it, and certainly i’m no chauvanist. i’d like for everyone to know and love who they are, whatever that may be, if its tied to a cultural or geographical identity or not
razib,
Maybe you can help me make the modifier “generic” fit with the noun “allusion.”
Are there, in the vernacular, instances of generic allusions that could suitably presented in a rhetoric class?
Or is this a logical Loch Ness (the monster).
Allusions are indirect but their target meanings are always precise.
Since you use wiki, you might try a look at the entry for allusion.
In another post you mention an affinity with Confucius. Perhaps you know this passage:
from The Great Digest (translated by Ezra Pound)
emphasis added
this is in the context of ethnic identity. if there is no context of that, i try to think of myself by my acts and motivation; who i love and what i love
wow, you are a major league asshole chris. precise enough for you?
razib,
I’m quit to admit that I am(a major league asshole)and worse than that.
Since I am a father of three, you can be assured I’ve already received this instruction.
My infinite discredit doesn’t fix your imprecisions.
Razib,
I have been watching with interest your effort to respond to Christopher, wondering if it was his non-brown name that got him the enagagement that my post didnt( I noticed we posted in sequence, but you chose to respond to only one).
Faced with the fear of logical inconsistency, the degeneration into calling names was very quick(much faster than I anticipated) This is why I (fairly) pointed out, there could be logical landmines ahead( as your logical weakness was evident to me from your initial post)
Many uninformed here seem to follow your posts, being driven by the data, not realising its vacuousness. I have been discussing/debating on the internet for many years and have never found a situation that will quickly bring out the mutinous violent streak in me. You have a long way to go Razib.
Maybe this portal is aptly named.Those who love gentle, intelligent, cogent ways of questioning their identity should rethink their participation.
Sumita
PS( Unless the 6 who run this site look into this unprovoked random emotional lashout, it may become a signature for this environment)
PPS Lest you guys think am a troll, I’d like to share am a mom of two kids,( 9 and 5 ) who is interested in writing that will help me learn what it is to grow up without an identity in the US, and how one can prevent this situation, for the sake of my kids. I am encouraged, my 9 yr old could debate this with greater vigor and more consistency and openenss than many here, and yet I humbly submit, no credit to me. Moderators, this scathing critism has been earned. There are things you must rethink.
Another point
The apppropriate response when one finds onself cornered in an intellectual discourse, is to admit one’s gap graciously. It provides opportunity for both parties to learn and go one step forward( My years of experience in debating, and success in academics and worklife has taught me this)
One does not take a brick, if one is a human, and beat the other on the head. Abusive language is the internet equivalent of that animal heritage we all share. We hope to use our minds to overcome it. Hopefully, saner minds here would agree with me.
Thanks
“Unless the 6 who run this site look into this unprovoked random emotional lashout, it may become a signature for this environment”
Flaming? On the Internets? My goodness, I’m sure they’ll look right into it. Please submit an F.I.R… 😎
I have been watching with interest your effort to respond to Christopher, wondering if it was his non-brown name that got him the enagagement that my post didnt( I noticed we posted in sequence, but you chose to respond to only one).
i’m not that interested in what christopher wanted me to explore. what you see isn’t an inability to respond, but a lack of engagement. and the fact is, i’ve seen him try to shove his own preoccupations down people’s throats in abhi’s thread on psuedoscience. i don’t play that game.
all i take from this exchange is that greater age and children do not impart onto people wisdom as they seem unable to understand that other people might not share their preconceptions or interests. myself, i prefer harsh quick insults to patronizing puffery when i am met with the latter. but hey, a sample of 2. i won’t go that far 🙂
the only one of your comments that made much of an impression was the one on the name maya. it wasn’t chris’ western name but the fact that we had previously had a long-winded exchange that made me note his comments, though i will be passing them over now.
Silly people, how are Tara and Anita and Sheila pronounced differently in the East and West?
Well, since my brown boyfriend is completely mad and will probably never give me a coffee-colored baby, I’ll tell you.
Radha. In Celtic it’s pronounced “row-a” and means “vision.” In Sanskrit it’s “rad-ha” and means “successful.” Happy now? Sheeeeez. 🙂
oh, and
Am very interested in knowing how you perceive these differences(or similarities) as related to desis from desiland(namely India)
you can lecture me about logic, but you shouldn’t take umbrage with me for ignoring you. it isn’t my place to explore how i really see the differences, because regular long time readers (which you stated you weren’t) will know that i am ambivalent at best to any particular ‘desi’ identity for myself and as i noted above i’m also pretty detached from the social realities of brown american culture. when i say that ‘american brown’ is being made here, i mean it is the posters and some of the other commenters who are identified with brown american culture. i’m a marginal observer, and, as you noted, i throw in facts where i think they are necessary (ie; for example, i simply went to the census india site and cited the % of christians after seeing several people throw out approximate guestimates and impressions).
Razib
Thank you for acknowledging my knowledge about Maya. It is not something which I take any credit for. Anyone with the luxury of time and resources to travel can learn this if they also have the luxury of time. I am truly fortunate and grateful to my husband for all these luxuries. I will pass on the fact you were impressed, to him. He will not care. He does not know you. In case you missed it was sarcasm at the egoistic stance people take on data. I dont do that, though I could cite data way faster and way better than you could. Vacuity is not my occupation.
Am entirely unimpressed by your knowledge. Anything you write, any intelligent person here can google in the age of the internet( and do).Knowing data is no example of erudition. Interpreting it to understand one’s reality is a first step towards knowledge. There are many other steps. You will find out when faced with a low moment, where data will be of no help. As people in New orleans are finding out.
Yes, age and having children, by themselves is of no consequence. Animals and mentally retarded people can reach that state too.I am aware of the logic and find commonality with you there. I shared my personal data to provide strength to the fact I am not a troll.Thats all. Nothing more.
I do not mean to lecture you. There is no obligaition I have on that subject, for you, or for anyone else. If you felt that way, my sincere apologies.
However, if there is something inconsistent, I do have a right, to assertively express my point of view.
Your answers would have interested me only if they exhibited any logic.
Unfortunately, that is missing.
Nice to meet you too!!
Sumita
Hate to get personal but you seem to have broached the issue so here goes…
And how is it that you maintain a girlfriend with such a healthy ego and a concomitant lack of empathy? I don’t suppose she lacks any of the assertedly tautological self-esteem that you seem to exude?
i’m not that interested in what christopher wanted me to explore.
Sumita,
If you read you will see that I very deftly backed razib on to the horns of a dilemma of his own fashioning, all the more worrisome for him because it involves gods and introspective spookery and other kinds of hooey.
Now that he’s run through, he feigns apathy. A corpse is not able to engage. The name calling grunt at the end was a death belch. (Why waste dying neurons on longwindedness.)
My experience in philosophical encounters is that my defeated counterparts complain of “longwindedness” and “puffery” while trying to figure out a way to lick their wounds and disguise their embarrassment.
I suppose this is razib’s way of “scratching and clawing to the table”. Since he’s been de-clawed he better hope his competitors yield to a pitiable look.
What happened here is instructive.
Razib tried to add too much prestige to his comments by using a cornerstone phrase of western inquiry: “Know thyself”. (This is what triggered my participation: his presumption) Since I know a little about this, being a student of the ancient world since childhood, I pressed him on it just a little. He showed himself to be clearly out of his depths, and instead of admitting an innocent mis-step, he made an even sillier retreat. His attempt at sophistry with the phrase “generic allusion” was actually an idiot’s oxymoron worthy even of Dubbya.
Hey, there’s an idea, maybe razib can get a speechwriting post at the White House. He can mumble data and improvise nonsensicals just like the guy in the chief office. He can also provide sound coaching in “operational egoism.”
Until then, as a special support to him in this new endeavor, readers of SM might want to read razib’s posts with that same mixture of nervous disbelief and distressed/disgusted wonder that all self-important frat-boy incoherencies evoke.
. Anything you write, any intelligent person here can google in the age of the internet( and do).Knowing data is no example of erudition. Interpreting it to understand one’s reality is a first step towards knowledge. There are many other steps. You will find out when faced with a low moment, where data will be of no help. As people in New orleans are finding out.
this is the second time new orleans has come up on this thread. personally, i think it takes a lot of gall to lecture other people about logic and then interject such a contemporary tragedy into dumbass rhetorical dispute. logic my ass, look up non sequitur.
though I could cite data way faster and way better than you could.
you sound like you’re seven by the way.
And how is it that you maintain a girlfriend with such a healthy ego and a concomitant lack of empathy? I don’t suppose she lacks any of the assertedly tautological self-esteem that you seem to exude?
self-cultivation. what comes ‘naturally’ to others i have to strive toward.
When I was applying for jobs, I received many letters that started “Dear Mr. Maisnon” SO IRRITATING!! The worst was the “Mr.” letter I received after interviewing.
Guess I made quite an impression! 😉
chris, i’m really not interested in the same things as you. you have a hard time (from the previous encounter about intelligent design) letting go of particular topics when other people don’t want to address them (or you keep trying to turn them into a particular direction). you turned a offhand comment into the height of intellectual warfare.
as for all the rest, whatever. this is an important blog, but not for talking philosophy, mysticism and the plumbs of your depths. i assume most SM readers don’t give a shit about my comments in the first place, so i think your coup is falling on deaf ears dude!
Nice post razib, the more you post, the more you exhibit a lack of civility.
“Logic my ass”
Is a wonderful sequiter? am not sure why undesirable parts of anyone’s anatomy must feature in a discussion. Or do you think its an example of an argument that is logical? Ok then.
I have lived through a tragedy like New Orleans personally and speak through direct experience and empathy. You self admittely do not admit to that emotion.
Let it go. You are way out of your depth here.In that you will earn mine and everyone else’s respect.
Sumita
I have lived through a tragedy like New Orleans personally and speak through direct experience and empathy.
well, if you lived through such a tragedy it can’t be all that bad if you cheapen it by using it as a talking point on a weblog debate in the wee hours of saturday morning.
My own 5 cents as follows:
Despite the Persian origin of the term to describe everyone living east of the river Indus/Sindhu, “Hinduism” in its genuine context is a religion, not an ethnic, racial, or national affiliation.
Not everyone in (or whose ancestry is from) India is necessarily either a Hindu or a Muslim. Sikhs being the obvious example. (And no, Sikhism is not a branch or subsect of the Hindu religion, regardless of what the VHP, the RSS, or certain sections of the Indian media — like Ekta Kapoor’s serials on the Star Plus cable/satellite channel — may be repeatedly stating these days).
Having ancestors who are Hindu does not necessarily make a person Hindu himself/herself if they or some of their more recent ancestors converted to another religion. Again, Hinduism is a religion not an ethnicity, and your affiliation to it is defined by your own religious beliefs, not your ancestry.
Not all Muslims in or from the Indian subcontinent are necessarily descended from Iranians, Pathans, Arabs, or any other groups from Islamic-dominated regions of the world; therefore, those whose ancestors converted to Islam are as Indian as the wider Hindu majority. Those Muslims of mixed ancestry are of course Indian in the nationalistic sense and (being pedantic) partially-Indian in the ethnic sense; it depends on how long a person and his/her descendents have to live in India until you regard them as being Indian.
Even if the bigoted types still repeat that only Hindus are Indians because Hinduism is geographically Indian in origin (unlike Islam and Christianity) and has the strongest cultural influence on Indian society, that still doesn’t address the question of people belonging to other indigenous faiths such as Sikhism, Jainism, or Buddhism.
In a nationalistic sense, none of us living outside India are technically “Indian” (especially those of us born here), but it is of course perfectly possible for such individuals to be Indian in the ethnic sense (and yes I know Indians are not a homogeneous ethnic/racial group, I’m speaking generally). It depends on which context one is using the term “Indian”, ie. nationality or ethnicity/ancestry.
I guess I’m partially paraphrasing Razib’s post #30, but this is my own stance on the matter anyway.
Razib : Regarding the ego and lack-of-empathy issue…
Control your ego and the empathy will come naturally, especially as you subsequently become more sensitive to your, well, own sensitive emotions (including the more painful emotions which can make some people feel uncomfortably vulnerable). Simultaneously make an effort to feel warmth and compassion towards others, both people you know/meet and people in general.
Ego and empathy are two diametrically-opposing forces. Subdue the former and the latter will come to you.
Please note, I am making a distinction between “ego” and “self-confidence/self-assurance”. The former, especially when it crosses the line into arrogance, is both self-destructive (it can severely distort one’s judgement and clarity of thought, along with fanning the flames of such negative emotions as anger/rage, jealously etc) and can also wreak havoc on the people around you.
Also bear in mind that lack of empathy (coupled with lack of remorse for one’s malicious actions) is a key symptom of a psychopathic mental disorder — by no means am I saying you are a psychopath (far from it !), and I do enjoy reading your posts as many of them make a lot of sense — however, it would be wise to take action before drifting too far in that direction. Ego is a dangerous drug, and the violence of human history is a testament to those who have become addicted to it.
well, since i’m here, and will put my google-powers to use!
i think one should be cautious of creation axiomatic definitions of what X is. my personal impression is that hinduism blurs the boundaries between religion and nationality. i know people who eat beef and are atheists who reject an afterlife who identify as hindus. to me, that sounds ludicruous, but who am i to say that they aren’t hindus? i think if enough people assert hinduism as a cultural-ethnic identity, than it is. if not, than it isn’t. certainly something can be a religion and an ethnicity, judaism being the archetype, but shintoism and now zoroastrianism fall into the same operational category.
re: muslims, the highest bound for genetic ancestry of muslims outside south asia post-1000 is probably 5% (and this is high). the older genetic studies that looked at autosomal (just normal DNA) didn’t discern any big difference between muslims and hindus in a given region (during the heyday of racial science in the early 20th century there was some surprise that craniometry showed muslim and hindu bengalis to be indistinguishable). some of the Y chromosomal studies do show west asian DNA, which makes sense if there was a strong male bias in migration from iran and central asia (and might overrrepresent west asian ancestry because of social selection for particular prestiges west asian patrilineages).
also, i think there is some utility is distinguishing non-hindu religions with an indian cultural origin, like buddhism and sikhism, with islam and christianity. buddhism comes out of the same milieu, and is often thought of as a child or sibling of hinduism. sikhism is often thought of as hinduism with strong monotheistic syncretic tendencies. my impression is that the buddhist conversions in maharashtra among after ambedkar in 1956 have not drawn the same hostility as conversions to islam or christianity (and buddhist dalits get gov. benefits). i think this is due to the fact that buddhism can be slotted into the hindu worldview (i believe buddha is an avatar of vishnu?). buddhism even uses some of the same terminology as hinduism (if with its own spin).
to recapitulate my ideas i alluded to above, i think that there are a host of traits that can define american brownness. to use an analogy, consider someone with the last name “neilsen.” that name by itself is a sufficient condition to say someone is of danish origin (at least paternally at some point). i think being hindu is the same for being brown/indian. on the other hand, consider the german actress franke potente. follow the link and you will note that IMDB offers that she is 1/16 italian, ergo, the latinate name. the lack of a german surname in this case is not enough to say, “oh, she’s not german.” she’s 15/16 german genetically. she speaks german. she was raised in germany. and so forth. so just because someone doesn’t have an important characteristic, there are other traits that can still imbue one with a general essence of “brownness.”
you turned a offhand comment into the height of intellectual warfare.
razib,
You are careless with “offhand comments” and then seek any means of retreat when it is exposed.
The correct view is that the issues of identity, of naming, of the misunderstandings surrounding these, and of self-knowledge are all closely linked. If you studied this with more intelligence you might concur.
Your hapless attempt to marginalize my contributions to this discussion and to the other (pseudoscience)is only tactical.
In the other blog you stated “We come here to bury ID.” Who is that we at the gravesite? Could you have been any more presumptuous?
I guess this is what you mean by “self-cultivation.” But I’ve already remarked on what this really is: self-display. (in pseudoscience)
In this blog you made a “generic allusion” (Oh, how I love that silly, silly phrase!) to the oracle and then tried to evade the responsibility for it.
You can “scratch and claw” with my pleasure, but when your ignorance emerges in the tumble, you will read about it.
You also deserve special censure for characterizing my sincere statements of interest as “patronizing puffery.” (If indeed, you were doing so.)The fact that you would elevate spineless vulgarity over genuine interest is notable.
Jai,
For your post no 130# the only personal way I can express my appreciation is by saying I hope my chidren grow up and retain this wisdom. ( It takes a lot for a mom to say this)As kids they naturally are egoless and empathetic but its so easy to trade it for fear, sensitivity and harshness as is evident all around us.
Thank you for making my Saturday morning lovely with that thought!!
Sumita
i’ve apologized when i’m an ass. let me be frank, my IQ might be too low to understand you because half the fucking time i don’t know what you’re trying to say (sorry if the vulgarity offends).
i did not interpret this as sincere interest. but hey, didn’t i say you won?
it would be wise to take action before drifting too far in that direction.
never fear about the direction of that vector! 🙂
Even if the bigoted types still repeat that only Hindus are Indians because Hinduism is geographically Indian in origin (unlike Islam and Christianity) and has the strongest cultural influence on Indian society, that still doesn’t address the question of people belonging to other indigenous faiths such as Sikhism, Jainism, or Buddhism.
and
And no, Sikhism is not a branch or subsect of the Hindu religion, regardless of what the VHP, the RSS, or certain sections of the Indian media — like Ekta Kapoor’s serials on the Star Plus cable/satellite channel — may be repeatedly stating these days
Do I see a paradox here? I mean if you consider Hindu bigots = RSS, VHP.
Dear Sumita ji,
Thank you for your message. My thoughts were just a combination of common sense, personal life experience, and (especially) the result of basic humanitarian Sikh teachings which I’ve done my best to put into practice in the context of my own relatively liberal and Westernised life. I take no personal credit for any wisdom this may have subsequently generated.
Be a source of strength, support and compassion for your children — rather than exhibiting the stereotypical desi parental traits of exerting power for its own sake or for personal ego, or being unncessarily judgemental, intolerant and autocratic — and I’m sure they’ll turn out fine as they grow up.
Thank you very much for your kind words anyway, and I’m glad to hear I managed to make your morning a little better in my own small way 😉
Warm regards, Jai
Manju, I’m not quite sure what you mean here, ie. why is there apparently a paradox ? Could you please clarify/expand on your question.
Many thanks.
Kind regards, Jai
Jai, Would you please let me know how to get those vertical dotted quotes?
Bigoted Hindus don’t need to address the questions on Indianness of Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains. Since it’s these people who are questioning their Hinduness. Perhaps, there are no questions to be answered. By the way, why did you assert that “Sikhism not part of Hinduism”? You brought a couple and one more unrelated variables to the discussion. Don’t you think the discussion is valid only for Muslims and Christians? This problem arises only because of bigoted Hindus. I don’t think bigoted Hindus have problems with Sikhism, Buddhism and Jainism. Little bit of digression(okay, a complete digression), sometimes I feel Ambedkar somehow let down Dalits by converting to Buddhism instead of Islam.
sometimes I feel Ambedkar somehow let down Dalits by converting to Buddhism instead of Islam.
well, from what i’ve read, he considered islam but thought buddhism a better fit for people of indian cultural origin since it was indigenous (originally) to the region and an exogenous importation (though they had to bring in monks from thailand and sri lanka).
When my brain is in a desi context, I admit I generally parse “[a]nna” as a title rather than as a name (in Telugu and Tamil, it means “older brother”)… my younger sister still calls me anna despite our being well out of our parental home. This may also have to do with seldom coming into contact with Indian Christians during our suburban Chicago upbringing. (Of course, now that I’m in New York, it’s all good.)
My surname has repeatedly been parsed as being Italian (in both the US and the UK). They do, after all, call Telugu the “Italian of the East”. (It’s the vowels, I think.)
Well, depends on what you mean by “the” hindu relgion since they are many versions. If you take a Santana Dharmic view of the religion then Sikhism, Jainism and Buddhism are branches. Even the Sikh monotheism is of an inclusive (all are equal regardless of religion) ‘hindu’ type as opposed to a exclusive ‘abrahamic’ type (christians killing muslims and vice/versa even though they believe in ‘one’ god). On the other hand, if you are a Shaivite hindu then sikhs are a different religion. No need to repeat khalistani arguments that only serve as political tools. Historically Sikhs and hindus have had a very close relationship sharing a lot in culture and religion. With the various reforms in hinduism the differences have become even lesser. The danger is that the with lessening differences, instead of seeing each other as equal terms, rabid ideologies start which aim to go back to the ‘pure’ form of sikhism and try to create differences when none exist. The VHP/RSS activities in this area are fringe, in general hindus (myself included) don’t care about folding Sikhs into hinduism.
Chris/Razib, It wouldn’t be stretch to say that nobody else here is following what the hell you guys are trying to say (lack of comments). You guys are assuming a common understanding of terms and language which is not true, something about shadow boxing that razib refered to (I think). Ooops, hope I haven’t fallen into Plato’s cave and have to endure a lecture on light, shadows and perfect forms from either one of you. Both will be wise to get out more and heed Wittgenstein
Also, Sumita == Christopher John in drag? same languid, deceptive prose. Great joy in planting logic landmines and jumping with glee on their explosion…
I thought it was also because of the music (and musicality of the language?). Like Italian opera, a lot of carnatic music is set in Telugu. Key composers wrote songs in telugu esp the trinity (Thyagaraja, Syama Saastri, Muthuswami dikshitar – the first two were telugs I think).
buddhism a better fit for people of indian cultural origin since it was indigenous
Perhaps, Ambedkar forgot to consider few things. He was a scholar and brilliant person. But not his people. Low self-esteem and inferiority complex were never part of his life. Not with his people. Being a scholar he could differentiate between atheistic Buddhism(in its original form and not its later Hinduised form) from Hinduism. Not majority of Dalits. A religion which gives them pride without any attachement to Hinduism would have been better. Well, every Hindu bows before Buddha’s statue. What’s the difference? If Ambedkar really part of a religion that is truly Indian(I wonder whether this attitude was shaped up because of divisive movement of Indian muslims) he could have continued to be Hindu. All that was needed was calling the brahmin bluff and standing upto feudal middle castes. I suppose Tiyya(Ezhava)s and Nadars in South India have done that.
manju, i think there are details also have to do with mahar identity perhaps. don’t know.
re: hindu/jain/sikh/buddhist/christian/muslim, exogamy rates might be a good way to gauge these things. though you’d have to control for numbers, my impression is that jains intermarry a lot with hindus (at least in the US) because there aren’t too many jains around. i get the impression that there are a fair number of sikh-hindu marriages.
The plight of “lower caste” muslim converts was all around him to see. Doing the same shitty jobs and leading the same desparate lives since their hindu caste oppression days. Hard to make a case that, after partition, becoming another “lower caste” muslim convert was wise. Buddhism, was at least a fresh start and he could have molded the religion to do social reform (which was the main goal) and was relevant. He could have made huge changes and not be bound by anybody else’s blessings (as in the case of Islam). Too bad he died soon after his conversion. It was a desperate situation for him and I don’t think imagined possible the progress being made in Independent India on eradicating the caste problem.
Sumita, if you read the Indian constitution, it makes it easier to understand the difference. According to it, any human can be an Indian and remain one as long as he/she doesn’t takes up the nationality of another. ‘Hindus’ are refered to as people who are not members of any other organised religion (Christians,Moslems, Parsi, Sikh, Jews, etc) this is why most tribals and other small groups in India are automaticaly considered Hindus for the purpose of identifying their religion.
From a cultural aspect, no matter what religion you are there is a strong element of ‘Bharatiya‘ or ‘Hindu‘ element in it.
The plight of “lower caste” muslim converts was all around him to see.
Probably, I agree with you in the case of North India. But in South India muslims have made a good progress. They are a lot better than Dalits. But as Razib mentioned his decision to join Buddhism wasn’t plight of muslims but Indianness of Buddhism.
any human can be an Indian and remain one as long as he/she doesn’t takes up the nationality of another.
What has happened to dual nationality?
Maybe this has some relevance to the original post.