Well, ain’t this some fabulous reporting from the New York Post (Thanks, Nina):
If you were in Manhattan yesterday, you might have thought an enemy force had taken over the island and severed the East Side from the West.
The invaders were not al Qaeda, but the Pakistani Parade and Festival, which stormed Madison Avenue from 23rd to 41st streets; the Daytop Village Street Festival on Madison from 42nd to 57th; and the Church of the Good Shepherd street fair on Third Avenue from 23rd to 34th.
The occupying armies ate up 45 blocks in the city’s heart from 10 a.m. to 6 p.m., plus time before and after to set up and take down.
I’m consumed by a wrath which makes me want to kick something. An enemy force? A festival which STORMED Madison Ave? Are you kidding me?
This little bit of ignorant commentary is all yours thanks to a Real Estate/Opinion writer named Steve Cuozzo. The title he chose for his piece is awesome:
SLEAZY, STINKY, CHINTZY STREET FESTS ARE MORE FOUL THAN ‘FAIR’
Granted, Cuozzo was referring to three different events while frothing-at-the-ass, but to mindlessly lump in another culture’s Independence Day with a mere street festival wasn’t very bright, considering the purpose of the lumping. Celebrating Pakistani Independence is sleazy, stinky and chintzy? Foul? I’ll tell you what’s foul: sloppy writing, ignorant thinking and pure disrespect. Perhaps this “journalist” thought he was being snarky; maybe he imagined that his choice of words gave his opinion piece that edgy, blunt, rudeness that naive people include in their stereotypes about the city I love most. Perhaps, he is simply a jackass. Whatever his reasoning or purpose, he is wrong. He is offensive, inappropriate and ignorant. And he does not speak for me, or any of the several hundred New Yorkers I know and love.
Real New Yorkers are just that– real. They’re not jerks taking potshots at a community which contributes plenty to the luminous energy the city marinates in. Immigrant communities from every corner of the globe are exactly what make the big apple taste so addictively extraordinary.
New York’s difference is its strength.
Shame on Steve Cuozzo and shame on the New York Post for publishing such garbage in the first place. I seriously doubt that this paper of no record would have either the inclination or the testicular fortitude to print similar if it were covering the Puerto Rican day or St. PatrickÂ’s day parade. The fact that the New York Post isn’t respected or taken seriously may be true, but it’s also irrelevant; Cuozzo’s words remain unacceptable.
I’ll leave it to Churchill to defend me:
On the subject of ending sentences with prepositions, people often recount a story involving Winston Churchill. When an editor dared to change a sentence of Churchill’s that appeared to end inappropriately with a preposition, Churchill responded by writing to the editor,
“This is the kind of impertinence up with which I shall not put.”
His purpose, of course, was to illustrate the awkwardness that can result from rigid adherence to the notion that prepositions at the end of sentences are always incorrect.
😉
A friend of mine, who was born in Bangalore, and is Muslim, goes around claiming to be Pakistani and gets offended when I correct him. Of course, I am just some silly South African who never knew that people have issues about the differences between being Indian and Pakistani. We grew up celebrating all festivals and it was always a good excuse to get the day off from school for Diwali or Eid to stuff our faces with all the good food. We were all just brown. Lets face it we all know some nasty jokes about Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims,(I know some real good zingers and so do YOU) and its okay to poke at each other SOMETIMES, but all brown people should stand up for each other, if we donÂ’tÂ…who will.
I’m ready to blame every Pakistani without discrimination, provided you are ready to accept responibility for every genocidal massacre carried out in “democractic” India – are you ready for it?
but all brown people should stand up for each other, if we donÂ’t Â…who will
yes non-indian brownies should do whatever they want to. but please keep us Indians out this please. Thank You.
You are somehow indicating that The Indian public/media/judiciary kept quiet whenever any massacre of Indians happen inside India. yes it had happened that those who did it got away with it but it was more because their deeds couldnt be proven.
Yes, Sajjan Kumar is sitting in jail right now and Narender Modi is living a life of shame in political exile.
Vick, Do you or do you not hold the population of Delhi accountable for electing Sajjan Kumar when he clearly led mobs and everybody knows that too.
Sajjan Kumar is not in Jail. He has resigned his post. Thats it. Nothing more will happen to him after he was named in the Nanavati report of the gruesome state-sanctioned massacre of minorities in 1984. (It was more than 4 times worse than 2002 ..if you go by casualties) anyways …what the hell
Sajjan Kumar is not in Jail.
RC, Can you spell S-A-R-C-A-S-M.
Well, I updated you on Sania Mirza’s progress yesterday. Today I was watching a bit of Rajeev Ram from Indiana. 21 years old and now out of the US Open I’m afraid.
ALmd, I missed your sarcasm (and with my relatively low english skills sometimes I may actually not know a spelling :-)) )
Mujahid,
Recently i heard that Information minister of Pakistan resigned after it was claimed by Kashmiri terrorists that he arranged terrorist training camps (the type you see in CNN clips) for a long time in 90’s. I have heard that Pakistani public has forced Paki government to set up a commission to look into this matter.
Did Paki media went after Mian Shareef or Mohtarma Bhutto to openly supporting terrorists in India. Oh i forgot those were Mujahids. They were just getting rid this earth off infidel. Indian media, public and judiciary on the other hand kept quiet when riots happened in Gujrat. Media even suggested that same pogrom should be started on the eastern borders of India and public immediately followed.
I also heard that a large number of Pakistanis are holding rallies against the govt to send criminals like Maulana Masood Azhar(whose brothers/friends killed an Indian honeymooner on that high jacked flight in Kandhar) and Dawood Ibrahim. One of Pakistan’s most respected cricketer recently arranged his Son’s marriage to the daughter of same esteemed guest of Pakistan. The daughter of this esteemed guest was living in Pakistan though her daddy is living in hole (the Saddam Hussain type) inside MusharrafÂ’s residence. Yesterday it was claimed by Pakistani foreign ministry that this hole isnÂ’t part of Pakistani territory as its 10 yards under the earth.
RC, I try to be funny and sarcastic but as you can see, its not working 🙁
Vick, As you never answered my question, I am going to ask you the question again.
Do you or do you not hold the population of Delhi accountable for electing Sajjan Kumar when he clearly led mobs and everybody knows that too.
Mujahid, Yes if the population of Delhi knew that Sajjan was envolved in the massacre of innocent people they should be ashamed of electing him. And should take responsibilty if he uses his position to get involved in such things again. When you elect monsters you should be prepared for the consequences.
So Pakistanis are responsible for sending Mujahideens all over the world to kill innocents? Naah i think that has always been good deed. Killing infidels(little % of non-infidel included) is anyway not such a big crime.
Yes if the population of Delhi knew that Sajjan was envolved in the massacre of innocent people they should be ashamed of electing him
This is common knowledge in Delhi.
I guess now you will apply the standard to citizens of Delhi that you apply to the Pakistani population for electing Musharraf and will cheer the berating of the citizens of Delhi just like you cheer the berating of Pakistanis.
You are of course going to be tickled pink when Delhi is berated because you are (I hope) consistent.
However if you see the folly of your vile ways, you will realize that you were wrong to be tickled pink by the hate directed towards Pakistani Americans.
I am not gonna be tickled if someone accuses me for electing Sajjan, I am ready to take responsibility of my acts and his acts as the MP. And if that means that other Indians (It cant be Others) point finger at me for electing a monster i wouldnt look for excuses. The responsibility of actions committed by democratically elected leaders should be shared by those who elect them. And you need to read my posts again, this time little more carefully. I never claimed that Pakistanis elected Musharaff because they didnt. But they elected Mian Shareef and Mohtarma Bhutto several times in 80s and 90’s. And both of them in each of their tenure supported Mujahideens killing innocent Indians fully. I didnt see any protest against this policy of terror coming from Pakis.
And you need to read my posts again, this time little more carefully. I never claimed that Pakistanis elected Musharaff because they didnt. But they elected Mian Shareef and Mohtarma Bhutto several times in 80s and 90’s.
I know and I was alluding to the fact that Mian Shareef was elected democratically and so was Sajjan Kumar. You cheer the berating of Pakistanis for electing Mian Shareef and I am presuming that you will cheer the berating of the citizens of Delhi for electing Sajjan Kumar.
No you didt know. You were talking about Mushraff in the last post whose crimes cant be passed on to the Pakis.
Thats correct. I did mention Musharraf. However the point is still valid when we compare Sajjan Kumar with Mian Shareef.
do any of our new york mutineers (still) read the Post? i’m wondering if there is any reaction to Cuozzo’s article, perhaps via letters to the editor? i skimmed the NYP today, didn’t see anything. but i didn’t get to see yesterday’s…
This is exactly the kind of logic and reasoning used by Osama bin Laden to justify 9/11, along with his continued promotion of attacks on Western civilians and nations. Practically word-for-word.
Not everyone who votes for a particular leader necessarily agrees with all his policies or all his actions once he is in office. And not everyone who is a citizen of a particular region — whether the United States, Delhi, or anywhere else — will necessarily have voted for the leader they ended up with. As I keep saying, “collective responsibility” is a dangerous concept.
So is the idea of “responsibility by default” — ie. “You live in a democractic region and didn’t take any action to prevent your leader from carrying out such-and-such offensive action and/or you didn’t remove him from office, and therefore you have to pay the price as much as those who are directly responsible for the aforementioned offensive actions”.
I cant be bothered to debate with someone so half witted and clueless. Read my post again and you might learn something. Dont be a bigot.
Vick stated
Seen some emotional resistance to that point. Some data points.
My belief – My stance is that I am accountable for my representative. In discharging my responsibilities I promise to be up to date on the current affairs and take remedial action if needed. This is an idealist notion. Here’s the first flaw in the argument, in a winner take all type election – my accountability would evaporate should my candidate lose – a scenario…
here’s a debate on a path to resolution.
Other flaws … the decline in the quality of debate among the elected representatives and our ability to receive and process the debate.
The net of it is – if you want to take a swing at me – I agree with what Vick said.
I cant be bothered to debate with someone so half witted and clueless.
Jai Singh,
Not everyone who votes for a particular leader necessarily agrees with all his policies or all his actions once he is in office.
Vick
You are a bigot. Your vision of collective responsibility is a form of bigotry and your response to the point about the genocide carried out by ‘democractically’ elected Indian politicians sinks your boat – you have to wriggle and shuffle the parameters of what qualifies for collective guilt along your own lines – thats fine – just ‘fess up that you are a bigot and get on with it – dont struggle to appear all righteous about it.
This collective responsibility is a dangerous argument. By that logic most on this board who probably did not vote for Bush, can be called “responsible” for the imperial project of America in Iraq and upwards of 100 thousand deaths of civilians in Iraq.
The words “NY Post” and “sensitivity” should not be used in the same sentence.
But then, I just did.
M. Nam
exactly. i did not vote for shrub, nor did i support the war in iraq. it’s not fair to condemn entire populations, willy-nilly.
frankly i thought the first time someone raised the point that OBL thinks with a similarly twisted, “you are all guilty, you all must die!” logic, THAT would’ve stopped this part of the discussion cold. i’m amazed.
OK. Since I started it all, let me try to finish it up. I have nothing against muslims…I have nothing against ordinary pakistanis. My “orgasmic delight” is restricted to the bad publicity Pakistan gets/keeps getting. Why? For far too long India has had a hypenated relation with its western neighbor and we were all reduced to a wannabe regional power. Now, things are changing. But, it is still a zero-sum game between India and Pakistan. India has been struggling for a long time to get the world attention on Pakistani terrorism. But, when jihadists hit the their own backyards, the west started taking notice. Now, they say that maybe what India kept screaming for decades is right. The epicenter for terrorism is Pakistan and the it is duly reported in the Western media. That is what I want…as much negative publicity as possible for them. If Pakistan talks anymore of “Hindu oppression” in Kashmir in the UN, the western diplomats are just going to switch off their headphones coz they dont believe it anymore coz Pakistan is getting too much negative publicity in the media and all these influence the american and european thought. That is exactly what I want. I am talking in terms of policy not the man on the stree. These policy decisions will trickle down to real tangible benefits for India in the future. Just like this for example. Pakistan was founded on the concept of hatred and they will try to bleed us with a thousand cuts. And contrary to what you might want to think, the aam junta in Pakistan HATES India and the converse is not true. But, still I am NOT saying I have anything with the Pakistani people – its just that I want Pakistan derided as much as possible in the policy level.
Vick,
Thank you for your reply. I think the fundamental problem we are having here is the fact that you appear to agree with the concept of “collective guilt”, ie. that entire groups are responsible for certain actions purely because they share some affiliation with the guilty party (whether it’s nationality, religion, ethnicity, or anything else).
I think I understand what you’re trying to say; possibly the problem isn’t entirely your viewpoint but — and I’m saying this with all due respect — the words you are choosing to articulate your position.
Collective guilt is a very dangerous concept, as I’ve said before. It is reasonable to say (for example) “All members of Al-Qaeda have some grievance against the West and non-Muslims, and are basing or justifying this on their interpretation of their religion”. However, it is not correct for someone to say “Muslims all hate Westerners or non-Muslims”. The differentiator is the factor of precision regarding who one is accusing. I hope you can understand the point I’m trying to make here.
There are presently approximately 162 million people living in Pakistan. One cannot say with any certainty that “all” of them support jihad, or that “all” of them hate India, and so on. Several thousand protestors here and there are not necessarily representative of the millions who are not present. To give you a similar example, it was recently estimated (after a UK-wide survey) that approx. 6% of the British Muslim population supports the actions of the recent London bombers. That’s 100,000 people, as the British Muslim population currently stands at 1.3 million. However, it would be incorrect for someone to say “British Muslims support jihad against the West, look how many of them agreed with the recent bombings” — because you’re ignoring the 94% of their community here who apparently do not support this.
Again, I hope you can understand the analogy I’m trying to draw here. And again, blaming the populace equally for the actions of their democratically-elected leaders (or non-elected, in the case of Al-Qaeda and much of Pakistan’s history to date) is exactly the same logic as that which is currently being used by Osama bin Laden — ie. the fact that we didn’t use violent revolution to prevent our Western leaders from stationing troops in Saudi Arabia or from waging 2 wars against Iraq, along with the war in Afghanistan etc, means that we all deserve to be blamed for their actions and deserve to be attacked via 9/11, 7/7 etc, despite being civilian non-combatants and (mostly) not being politicians.
Likewise, some chap on here a while ago said he was pleased about the London bombings hit near me because I was to blame for the war in Iraq, simply as I am a Briton. Anyway, I think all’s been said.
Jai Singh,
51% of Pakistanis support Bin Laden according to PEW global attitude survery.
Unfavorable views of Jews by country:
Turkey 60% Pakistan 74% Indonesia 76% Lebanon 99% Jordan 100% Morocco 88%
http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?PageID=809
tef,
Hitler is the 3rd most popular leader in India. Are all Indians Nazis ?
Mujahid – The Pew poll is conducted by a well respected oragization in a scientific way. Straw polls sayin “Hitler rocks” do not count. I was amazed at the data from Tef’s link. At least in secular thought India is on par with Western countries.
No not all Indians are Nazis. But some I am sure are.
Could you please provide a link to your source about Hitler being the third most popular leader.
thanks.
The Indian college educated elites do seem to idolize Hitler
“In a December 2002 poll in the Times of India, 400 students from IndiaÂ’s most prestigious colleges were asked to select the ideal leader India needs most. Independence leader and spiritual icon Mahatma Gandhi led with 23 percent. Current Prime Minister Vajpayee finished second with 20 percent. In third place, with 17 percent, was Adolf Hitler”
http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2003-02/20d'souza_.cfm http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_go1658/is_200310/ai_n9171786 http://www.thejewishweek.com/top/editletcontent.php3?artid=2951 http://www.harpers.org/HarpersIndex2003-09.html
Just as I thought. Here is the link for Mujahid’s ‘fact’. As you can all see, the poll was conducted by lo bnd behold “The Times of India” – India’s top rag. We all know how scientific they can get. I dont think they will think twice of fudging the data just for some spicy news. And even then some points to consider: 1) It was a poll done only on college students. 2) College students are all in the “boiling blood” phase of their life, when they want to go out and do something and set right the country – mostly with the help of a powerful leader. Bose and Hitler are always staple for this thought. By the time, they are in their 30s they think with more clarity. Come on we have all been through this phase.
And even then, quoting the article “Hitler represented discipline, efficiency and nationalism to the students” not anti-semitism.
Well that would make 17% of Indians nazis then.
Although, I give you PEW, and you give me multiple sources all quoting the TOI.
But I do believe there is fascist element in India.
the price you pay,
India will never become a global player as long as Indians like you continue to obsess over Pakistan and measure yourself against a tiny state heading for bankruptcy.
I frankly dont care about Pakistan and the decay in their society either. It is amusing though to see you and your other Indian patriots live your lives comparing your country to Pakistan.
Fascist element can be expeceted to exist in all societies at lesser or greater percentage. It would not be proper if we use “Hitler” as a litmus test of “fascism”.
I don’t think age of the those surveyed in the TOI poll should be used as an excuse. You ought to know better by 18.
” And even then, quoting the article “Hitler represented discipline, efficiency and nationalism to the students” not anti-semitism.”
I think quoting Hitler for discipline, etc. is unfortunate and shows lack of knowledge of history in its entirety by these college students. Have you met an average Indian student ?…….they are pretty clueless.
However, India is not at all anti-semitic, all through the ages.
TOI…….They just want masala news, that’s all.
That is also true that India should stop obsessing about Pakistan, period.
Too true. India should be competing with China, who gives a toss about a backwater like Pakistan? Gurcharan Das said he counted the number of mentions Pakistan gets in daily newspapers compared to China. Pak outnumbered China 8:1. It’s an obsession that has to be shaken.
In France, almost 20% of the population voted for Jean-Marie Le Pen. Jörg Haider’s party is sitting in the Parliament in Austria. Pim Fortuyn before he was killed was on the rise in Holland. BNP actually won some council seats in Britain. Fascism is on the march around the world.
Point taken re: economics, but not re: security. The terrorists who attacked the Indian Parliament a couple of years ago weren’t trained in China.
Al Mujahid,
I am not sure if that remark about “indian patriots” was meant for me. But if it was here is my reponse.
I care about Pakistan. You know seeing how we are all South Asian and all.
Seriously, I would like to see Pakistan do better. And India too. For the record the fascist views of “elite” students in India are very worrying. You would think they would have more enlightened views.
Understand that the indian history books label Hilter as a plain Bad Guy. Period. They do not delve into any detail on the atrocities commited by him, or the sufferings of the Jewish community, as is dont so by text books in the west. As a result the Hitler reference is more synonomous with that of a dictator (which some Indians feel India needs) then any sort of support for any of his attrocities.
Correction: …as is done so by text books…
I am not sure if that remark about “indian patriots” was meant for me. But if it was here is my reponse.
No, it was not.
I would agree with Bula Bula Bi: most Indian textbooks condemn Hitler, but don’t present anything like an in-depth sense of the horrors associated with Nazism. This is not to deny that fascism has plenty of adherents in India.
I would disagree with tef’s suggestion that one would expect the better educated to have more enlightened views. This presupposes that the LESS-well educated/elite may in any case be expected to have fascistic views. But in fact the opposite is the case: the modernist manias for order, efficiency, and national greatness (conceptualized as a kind of uber-manhood) at any cost are in fact the sorts of views that have often, not just in India, attracted people from the educated classes who are materially better off than most of the population. This was true of post-World War I European fascist movements too (the intellectual backbone for these was quite educated and accomplished; the shocktroops of course were not); this was true of India during Indira Gandhi’s Emergency too (one is far more likely to find “educated” people justifying Sanjay Gandhi’s excesses during the priod than “uneducated” people; and let’s not forget the bulk of the opposition to the Emergency came from India’s great unwashed, NOT from its professional and bureaucratic and industrial classes who were only too happy to have trains run on time, strikes banned, unions smashed, slums cleared, and uneducated people sterilized). From my own travels in Pakistan (on a different but not entirely unrelated note), I find it interesting that the most pro-military rule people I meet tend to be the well-heeled; their drivers, gardeners, and cleaners tend to prefer this or that political party (even though the standard justification for military rule in Pakistan is that the elected politicians have improverished the people, who are apparently too stupid to know better).