Okay. This one is for you dozen tipsters who are jonesing for our take on this article about “”love-cum-arranged,” marriages that appears in today’s NYTimes.
Yawn. Haven’t I read this article like a dozen times before? It’s always half of an article where they drum up the angle that they wanted to write in the first place instead of doing any real reporting.
These young people may have come of age in an America of “Moonstruck” and “Dawson’s Creek,” but in many cases they have not completely accepted the Western model of romantic attachment. Indeed, some of the impetus for assisted marriage is coming from young people themselves – men and women who have delayed marriage into their late 20’s and early 30’s, said Ayesha Hakki, the editor of Bibi, a South Asian bridal and fashion magazine based in New Jersey.
“That has been the most remarkable trend,” Ms. Hakki said, citing the example of a male acquaintance, who, after dating on his own, turned to his parents for guidance.
As Madhulika Khandelwal, a historian who has studied Indians here, said, “Young people don’t want to make individual decisions alone.”
[cough]-bullshit-[cough]. It’s not that young people don’t want to make “individual decisions alone” and have decided that their parent’s “guidance” is best. No. It’s that they are giving up and no longer want to fight “the system.” Ladies in their late twenties can only pursue self-absorbed or commitment-phobic guys (and there is nothing wrong with being commitment phobic 
) for so long before they throw in the towel and opt for “traditional,” by default. Likewise, guys are forced to deal with women who are too neurotic to date mostly because their parents are breathing down their necks to get married. We (Indians raised in this country) turn to our families for the exact same reason as someone of another culture would turn to their’s, except for the fact that there is more pressure to turn to them. This article and others like it always seem to dodge the truth in order to accentuate the exotic “embrace” of our culture. What the article describes is more than just being set up on a “blind date,” which it compares it to. Lots of cultures practice the art of the blind date, whether through family or friends, and it isn’t particularly newsworthy. When journalists single out Indians they do so with the implication that the family’s fingerprints are all over the entire courtship process. If that is the case then explaining it away as a willing “return to tradition” makes my eyes roll. Here is some more bullshit:
The embrace of more traditional habits is apparent in other ways. Weddings are often elaborate and last three or four days. Families of the betrothed often still consult a Hindu astrologer who schedules wedding ceremonies according to the stars. When Anamika Tavathia, 24, was engaged to a young Indian she met in college, his family visited hers to propose on his behalf and the priest determined they should marry on June 26 of this year between 10:30 and 11 a.m.This fall is expected to be an unusually busy wedding season in Indian communities, because many couples postponed weddings last year when many days were deemed inauspicious.
Are you f*cking kidding me? I guess the Times decided that the article could use a bit more masala when they added that last sentence. As a quick aside though, I made up a drinking game for when I go to Indian weddings. Any time someone uses the word “auspicious” you take a shot at the reception.
Despite its groundings in pragmatism, assisted marriage is spoken about among some young Indians in highly romanticized terms – implicit in it is the cinematic idea that immediate attraction should result in an eternity spent together.
Damn. I hope that’s not true because that would mean that a lot of my close friends are totally abnormal.
Kesha Petal’s sister married a man to whom she was introduced through her aunts. She decided to marry him the day after they met. “A lot of my friends,” Kesha Petal said, her eyes gleaming, “tell me you know in an instant.”
Oh, oh. I just vomited all over myself. Speaking of weddings though, did you guys see this long-overdue article in the Guardian?
The wedding beast, I fear, is swallowing us all, and Liz Savage, the editor of Brides Magazine (circulation 68,000), confirms it. The British bridal industry is worth £5bn a year and growing, and Savage cites a faintly nauseating buffet of factors. First, people are increasingly paying for their own weddings, thus unleashing a torrent of Personal Romances-style fantasies on us all. “Fathers of the bride are no longer automatically footing the bill,” she says. “Couples have more money to spend and they want the wedding to be an expression of their personal style.”The key driver, it becomes clear, in the excess of the modern wedding is pseudo-sophistication and grisly one-upmanship. “Our tastes have become much more sophisticated and glamorous,” says Savage. “I got married nine years ago and there was none of this fuss over the menu and what we were drinking. Then you wouldn’t have dreamed of turning your nose up at the wine but today we are putting ourselves under far more pressure … Our readers spend more time thinking about the reception than anything else. The attention to detail is amazing – the choice of napkin ring, how they are going to tie the napkins and how are the place settings going to look. It doesn’t matter if they are traditional or getting married in winter or abroad, our readers want to surprise and delight their guests. People are much more creative and imaginative today. They want their wedding to be talked about and to give their guests the best they can. They really want the wow factor.”
[begin rant] It’s true. It’s far worse for Indian weddings though. One of my closest friends and his fiance were in town a couple weeks ago to do some wedding shopping. They both advised me never to get married because the actual wedding will suck all the life (and money) out of you. Everything has to be perfect and you have to invite guests that you will never talk to again in your life. I for one will never buy a diamond engagement ring. I’d rather spend the $14,000 on a 4 week 5 country honeymoon, and I won’t have to worry about some kid in Sierra-Leone getting his limb chopped off for a rock that in reality is worthless. I also can’t stand the way that women shake hands when they are newly engaged. Also, please, please, please save your money and do not make a “wedding music CD” for your guests. Nobody wants to listen to the music you guys do the dirty to. [end rant]
Interesting statistic in my family: out of four cousins who are married, three married non-Indians and one had an arranged marriage to a green-card lovin fob. Guess which one fell apart. And I always figured the fams was one of those more ardent Shiva-fearing religious types.
Those statistics are pretty interesting. I was just referring to what the boyfriend and I have gleaned from our ongoing masala couplewatch, in which we look for other mixed-race pairs. In general, we’ve noticed less Asian males dating women of other races, be they East Asian or South Asian. The aforementioned masala couplewatch, however, has very poor methodology and is limited to samplings at college campuses, malls and amusement parks, for the most part.
and one had an arranged marriage to a green-card lovin fob
Maybe it was just love.
GC:
Your back-of-the-envelope calculation is plausible but will your scenario of full assimilation w/i a few generations turn out to be on target? Maybe or maybe not.
Certainly, I too think it likely that a significant percentage–perhaps a majority–of ‘South Asians’ will not indulge in assortative mating. However, among other factors, the ultimate demographic fate of the ‘South Asian’ community–as you implicitly acknowledge–turns on the variance in attitudes towards exogamy within this community. Religion (or lack of such) is one key variable in generating such variance. And of course, it possible that there will be significant variance in attitudes toward exogamy within any particular religious ‘community’, mirroring, say, that of the American Jewish community to some extent. Or, perhaps not. Which is just to say that your analysis is one of many plausible scenarios.
Btw, I think partitioning variance on the basis of 1.5 vs 2nd generation–while plausible–may not be correct. At the least, the magnitude of this effect may be significantly weaker than you suspect: FWIW, a (very) quick scan of the NYTimes database on ‘Hindu’ marriages seems to show a siginificant decrease in exogamy over the last few years. I suspect the magnitude of the decrease in the exogamy of this group is inconsistent with a large differential in attitudes between 1.5 vs 2nd generation.
Finally, while you (and many/most other commenters on this post) see no (or little) value to endogamy, those of us who are traditionalist in our religious practices prefer endogamy because it allows us to cultivate our religious tradition. It is not, ‘a priori’, an unreasonable position (and, come to think of it, even ‘a posteriori’, it’s eminently reasonable for traditionalists). No doubt, GC, you’re wretching at the very mention of ‘tradition’, but not all of us can be Kewl Kids 😉
Kumar
Finally, while you (and many/most other commenters on this post) see no (or little) value to endogamy, those of us who are traditionalist in our religious practices prefer endogamy because it allows us to cultivate our religious tradition. It is not, ‘a priori’, an unreasonable position (and, come to think of it, even ‘a posteriori’, it’s eminently reasonable for traditionalists).
religious endogamy makes sense. i doubt GC would disagree with that. but, there is very little reaction to my relatively ‘hegemonic’ stance in regards to atheism and religion on these boards. what % of hindus do you think are traditionalists in the religious sense? my impression is that american brown hindus are very secular, a secular as american jews (who are about 25% atheist in regards to god). the christian evangelicals often outmarry (racially), and a lot of the muslims do too (though still more often i have heard of pakistani-bangladeshi pairings than pakistani-egyptian).
re: jews, please note that rate of exogamy has varied wildly over the past decades. the rate was less than 10% until the 1960s, when it started starting, to level off around 50% (usually given as 40%). i think social attitudes toward jews played a big role in this, japanese americans also have exogamy rates around 50%, and they’ve been in the states about the same amount of time (4/5 of american jews descend from the “big wave” askhenazi migration, not the initial sephardic trickle or the later mid-19th century german jewish contingent of “our crowd”).
also, there is a common retort about the melting pot model that irish and italian communities still exist. but that neglects the fact that these are rumps of much larger migrations which have been predominantly absorbed and de-ethnicized (irish earllier than italians). the same might happen to browns, but
1) browns are fractured to begin with (barring a pan-brown identity emerging), so the effective population of this marriage networks is already smaller.
2) the relative size of the american population is far larger than it was during the time of the irish or “big wave” migrations around 1900.
i think the long term key is SES. high SES people move around a lot, mix a lot as a matter of course. i can’t see browns not assimilating if they remain high SES.
Thanks, gc and razib, for the sympathy.
I was asked by a mutual acquaintance of my ex- if my experience had put me off Indian men, to which I replied “Not necessarily. There are assholes in all countries.”
The funny thing is, my ex’s mother said to him after he told her we were going to shack up “Well don’t come to me in the future and ask me to find a wife for you, because I won’t be able to.” (show her face before the community, in essence)
The funny thing is, I know that his past as a cohabitor with a white chick will give him some reverse-exotic caché back home. An amusing little detail in his biodata, like saying that his hobbies include muay thai. Puhleez.
The study I want to see done a few decade from now is of the divorce rate among arranged marriages versus “love” matches. I always cock (easy boys) a quizzical eyebrow when I hear the much-touted reference to how enduring arranged marriages are. Well, yeah, of course they endure, when divorce is not an option. Now that middle class India has started to tolerate divorce, I think we’ll see why it was so in older days, but not now…
Ok, now that I’ve got all that off my chest, any intelligent, interesting desi boys looking for a cute thity-something who’s got it going on? (Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!)
I was asked by a mutual acquaintance of my ex- if my experience had put me off Indian men, to which I replied “Not necessarily. There are assholes in all countries.”
as i like to tell my gf, once you go brown, you never turn around.
Razib:
I don’t doubt that a significant percentage of American Hindus are thoroughly ‘secular’. But the eventual demographic fate of American Hindus–and other South Asian communities–will turn on the extent of variance in attitudes towards endogamy. I don’t think that such atttiudes can be taken as a ‘constant’, at least not without argument.
The various factors that you and GC adduce–high SES, etc.–certainly make for plausible forecasts of futre demography. But the uncertainty which attends the conclusions of your models is too great for my taste.
As an illustration, I’ll simply say that in our community of KP’s (all high SES, btw) the extent of change on this score is rather surprising. Certainly, a significant majority of marriages in the recent few years have been endogamous. Although this is all anecdotal, it’s not merely so–it should serve as a caution when making demographic predictions. All this is to emphasize that such prediction is a hazardous business.
Btw, I’m not sure why your ‘hegemonic’ atheism hasn’t elicited a response from others–perhaps many share it, or perhaps the issue doesn’t interest them. But I have to say I don’t think atheism (or theism, for that matter) is rationally compelling to those in the opposite camp. To distort Dawkins, atheism and theism are both intellectually fulfilling. 😉 In any case, such debates fill me with ennui, I’m afraid–hence my lack of response to your ‘hegemonic’ atheism.
Kumar
Oops, it’s of course ‘future’ in the comment above. And the high SES refers to the marriages, of course, not to all KP’s.
I’ll read all the comments later, but I have to put in my own rant now.
Where the hell are these mythical arranged marriage promoting parents? Who the hell has them? Does the Times have some secret stash of Indians in a commune somewhere they get exotica tips from?
My parents didn’t even have an arranged marriage. I come from a pretty typical middle class Bangla family. My mom was horrified at even the the joking suggestion she has to find us husbands. They always tell us, “take it slow, take it slow, there’s no rush, it’s the rest of your life.” I will scream the next time someobody’s mom asks me if my parents are looking for a husband for me. WTF?
Weddings are awesome and I can totally see why someone wants to have a good one, b/c I have such good times at other people’s weddings I’d be sad if mine was no fun. But it’s totally about the spirit and not the cache. One of the best weddings I went to we had sandwiches for lunch. One of the best weddings I heard of — Ben & Jerry’s and Zachary’s Pizza (for all you East Bayers, you’ll know what I mean) on the beach. It’s little touches that matter, like bubbles on the tables, that are actually appropriate to you and your friends. Screw the pseudo-sophistication. Maybe I just have super fun friends, but I don’t get why people make such a big deal of it.
Re: diamonds: YES. Finally. WTF is up with diamonds?!? Diamonds bite! I mean, they’re clear. Who wants clear? To paraphrase Lalit Varma: who wants a clear stone? I want color! This isn’t a funeral, this is a wedding. Garnets and Amethysts–cheaper, less socially nasty–are so much more *beautiful. Have you ever seen tournaline? It’s amazing! Even emeralds, rubies. But diamonds? It’s a totally artificial value.
/end rant for now
Ann:
Right. If he decides to live in India, that’ll be one less here 😉
Yowch. It would be highly ironic if a guy who left his girlfriend because of mommy’s orders suddenly became an appealing “bad boy”.
There’s some truth to this even independent of the “bad boy” thing…I think that American accents on Indian-Americans play the same role in India that English accents play in the US.
The time to look for this is now, during the transition period (as arranged marriages start becoming less common). Even today, there is also a self selection effect at play — the guys and gals who opt for medieval matrimony in the midst of modernity will probably be more stolid and less adventurous in general…with all that entails.
Well, this is the place to look. 🙂
wow. I love this post. For one thing, I find myself entirely in agreement with gc and razib regarding assholes, arranged marriages, and so many other points….(feeling so dizzy. must sit down)…..(still lingering on this special moment of agreement)…ok. done.
Nina P and Ann On…I have to say I really appreciate you two ‘vesterners’ logging on here to say your piece. Takes guts. Frankly, I’ve run away from plenty of desi boys who smelled like amma’s ‘lil darling, yknowhatimean? Also, the sheer number of blatantly double-standard hypocrites really gets my feminist ire rising…
(yeah Razib. feminist. But…if you think that most feminist groups waste time and energy by chasing after items of symbolic value instead of those that would actually make a bloody difference…we might actually agree…. again)
This post sure does generate some strange bedfellows! speaking of which – miscegenation, people. best answer to everything 😉
Annon:
Now that middle class India has started to tolerate divorce, I think we’ll see why it was so in older days, but not now…
I think one also has to ask what the happiness level is of a totally “risk averse” life. If the divorce rate is the only measure of whether a marriage is successful, that’s a fairly low bar to clear 🙂
Also, somewhat related, and amusing…check this out:
The funny thing is just how similar this is to the Bachelor! Also rather amusing in that this is hardly “traditional”…but seems to be quite a hit…
My boyfriend has cousins, but then who doesn’t?
Amen. And as a vestern voman vith a first-gen Gujarati as a boyfriend, I have to say that there are guys out there who will stand up to amma and sing your praises. And there are ammas and papas that will open their hearts and lives to you, stupid as that may sound. My boyfriend’s parents are slowly accepting me – they have helped me with Hindi homework, taught me how to make chai the real way, offered me a place to stay in their home. It’s still an uphill battle, but eventually they’re gonna have to find a place for me. And they’re trying, and more importantly, my boyfriend isn’t going to stop keeping them on their toes. He’s said that he loves me, and his family will have to make room for me. It is in no way easy, but it’s worth it for both of us.
Ain’t that the truth.
Once you go through the whole article as someone living in India, I began to think the concept of an assisted marriage has always been around.There have been exceptions when the groom and bride donÂ’t meet each other until after the wedding. So the “US touch” doesnÂ’t hold ground here. Today individuality and rationality guide the arranged marriage, so it isn’t as impinging as it was years ago.
Now I think the writer is looking at Indian marriages and courtship from a very Western perspective. Marriage is the cornerstone of society, so people try to preserve the continuity of their families, culture, and tradition by trying to marry their offspring to someone who has the same background as them. This sounds archaic and ancient but India has an ancient time-tested culture with regards to marriages.
Look at our films and literature; all culminate in a “BIG FAT INDIAN WEDDING”, and all family politics and gossip happen around a wedding. The marriage is all about class, family prestige, religon etc.
According to the writer the American invention in the courtship game meant prospective bride and grooms are not obliged to marry the persons whom their parents have chosen. I donÂ’t think that is an American invention, freedom of choice, to select your partner is a choice and has been promoted by the Hindu tradition. But largely ignored by the Indians and the diaspora that is steeped in the India of the 60’s and 70’s.Times are changing.
Somewhere along the way Indian and its diaspora have forgotten the enriching Hindu tradition of marriage.
GC said: “I’ve seen stats indicating that IR marriages are somewhat less fertile (lower TFR) than same race pairings…”
This is really interesting. I’m always reading articles about the science of smell, how supposedly people pick partners with different, what is it, immunohistocompatibility complex? than them because it would indicate having healthy babies (as opposed to mating with someone with a similar IHC, i.e. related to you). So I’ve always assumed my white nose loves the smell of my brown boyfriend for possibly this reason. 😉
As for the rest of this discussion…yow! I had a huge argument with a brown friend over outmarriage once. He’d only ever dated white women, but when he happened to find a girl that was same caste (and build, and haircut, even…she’s like his mini-me) and all that nonsense, he instantly decided he had to marry her. He said he never could have been with his former white love because her parents were BNP racists and his parents would never have allowed it. WhatEVER. If your parents are intolerant freaks that’s THEIR problem, NOT yours!!! Luckily for me, my boyfriend ran away from home 20 years ago, and my parents don’t care what I do as long as I don’t ask them for money. I can’t imagine the drama that some brown families seem to enjoy causing. My own personal observations are that “non-traditional” Asians (i.e., those working in creative fields) are way more likely to date non-Asians, possibly because they’re already partly shunned by their own community and used to bucking expectations.
There was a feature on brown/white females in an Asian women’s mag last fall, one from each 10-year age group. The youngest said “My mummy is white chocolate and my daddy is dark chocolate. That means I’m milk chocolate.” It’s all about “Bulworth,” dude. “Everybody just got to keep f**king everybody till we’re all the same color.” 😉
Errrr What’s the ranting all about ? Most people end up marrying people of similar backgrounds, class etc As long tas the final decision rests with them How does that differ from ticking boxes on a dating agency form ? Or is it ideologically suspect not to be bed hopping ?
Masala fish & chips: if only it was that simply Liverpool has the highest “mixed race” population but they suffer the appalling problems of racism. Anyway I’m bournville black (original indian, none of this aryan trash) while the missus is milky bar white and we’re both Punjabi !
One thing I’ve noticed about the mixed marriages I’ve witnessed is that the non-South Asian partner tends to adopt South Asian mores and customs, rather than vice versa. The last time I went to temple, I was amused to see the pandit’s blonde daughter-in-law decked out in a red sari. I don’t know what this means in terms of assimilation and so forth, but I think it’s interesting.
As for arranged marriages, in my experience they’re not the sole domain of losers who can’t get a date: some of the people who undertake them are genuinely interested in preserving their religion and culture, and the easiest route to that end is marrying someone of the same background. Such people tend to socialize almost exclusively with other browns anyway, and they might meet a potential mate that way, but asking mummy and daddy-ji for help is also an option.
Y’all might want to check out this article on arranged marriage written by an Indian-American living in Brooklyn who is definitely not a “loser.”
Someone save me! I may have to go down this road and I can’t agree with you more. I’d rather spend my money on a cruise and take a month off work to f*ck around all the time … my girl would too but she wants a big friggin rock. :'( Oh well …
I could say many things, but I’ll just respond to, “[A]rranged marriages for Injuns born in the US are consolation prizes for social losers” and other similar comments…
Ummm… I always thought married folk were smug and judgmental of the unhitched. Didn’t realize single people were so sanctimonious.
This topic brings out a lot of passion (unlike an arranged marriage?). Zack put up post on arranged marriage in August 2003. Two years later, the comments are still active! (Worth checking out if the topic interests you).
On the other hand, active comments may not be an indicator of a hot button issue. Sepoy wrote a post on Ra Da Punjabi Rapper a year ago, and that comments section is also still active too (and to this middle-class bougie, mostly incomprehensible).
i have a hard time reading anything about marriage written by a white christian dominated newspaper in a nation w/ a 50% divorce rate and their laissez-faire attitude towards single motherhood and other obnoxious behavior. I am married now for 2 yrs and my parents first brought up the idea of getting married when i was 21, not so much so for me to actually get married but to get me thinking that in 5-10 yrs I should expect to mature and at least keep an eye out for someone who will help me mature into the next phase of life and add to our family. I still went around partying like a madman, dating girls from all different backgrounds and cultures and at the end of hte day, i found me a punjabi ABCD, completely on my own and I couldn’t have found a better person to be with and be part of my family and vice versa for their family. W/o my parents guidance and their expression of our values who knows what might’ve happened. maybe if all the weirdos who bust innumerable thousands on their weddings and then divorce 2 yrs later would have such a family value system the divorce epidemic wouldn’t be so bad here. Just the other day, I was on a message board where out of 50 replies to the question “would you divorce your spouse if they were in an accident and became a vegetable?”, 45 of them said they would bcuz “that’s not the same person who I intended to marry, I married the person who had thoughts and feelings”…sickening. I love how the christians here can belittle and exoticize our system and at the same time, 50% of them basically lie during their weddings about the ’til death do us part’ stuff.
give me my indian values and culture anyday in regards to this matter. End rant.
Oi ! Ikram Auntji & I have been chained together by the shacks of the arranged marriage system for 5 years now I can tell you the fires of passion still burn as bright as they ever did (twirls impressive moucha).
Do be fair those parents have had their children marry out, have reported that they non-desi son/daughter in law are more respectful, have more concern and are easier to emotionally blackmail then their own feckless offspring. In this deeply unscientific poll 9 out of 10 families say they wouldn’t swap their own goraa/goree for a new brown one.
Wow, this looks long. Can someone read it to me?
gc:
Can you point me in the direction of these stats, do pray tell?
uncleji, you are hilarous. just thought i’d gaze adoringly in your direction for a moment. 😉
madarchod
Thanks for the rant telling us all how superior desi culture is to the horrible white Christian divorce-at-will culture of the US. You and the social conservatives agree on one thing at least, us Americans are need more social values/ sarcasm off
Look, kid, I’m glad you are happy and hope your marriage lasts forever. Divorced people are not anathema, you know. I divorced because my nice, family values desi husband drank and drank and drank and treated me like a dog. But we don’t discuss these things in our desi culture, do we? It’s the goras that have all the problems, right?
Oh, lord, I meant “because he drank and drank and drank,”. And ANNA, I’m with you on the Uncleji worship. The comment gave me a giggle.
Also, why is their such bashing and meaness on this board? The fuglies, and goras, and any desi that doesn’t fit nicely into whatever box you think is perfect. Finding happiness in this life is difficult. People do their best. They really try. Sometimes it is a little bit about luck, so have a little gentleness in your hearts…..
respect your values. I’d take out the ‘indian’ from your statement though. there’s a lot to be not so proud of – another thread, another time.
no formulas here… surprised at the discussion … maybe just american angst
Why is everyone laughing and loving at Uncleji when I am the original joker?
You guys are so fickle.
Uncleji stop being funny.
Madarchod,
(Great monniker, btw.)
A few comments.
First, you write
i have a hard time reading anything about marriage written by a white christian dominated newspaper
That’s funny, because the Christian Right often assails the NYT for being a leftist Jewish-dominated publication…
…in a nation w/ a 50% divorce rate and their laissez-faire attitude towards single motherhood and other obnoxious behavior.
I don’t have the exact reference right now, but I’ve read in more than one place that the much-touted 50% divorce rate is quite inaccurate and the real rate is much lower.
I love how the christians here can belittle and exoticize our system and at the same time, 50% of them basically lie during their weddings about the ’til death do us part’ stuff.
I don’t think the NYT article was belittling anything. While coming in rather late at the fag end of a “trend”, I took the writer’s attitude to be one of trying to show to readers who didn’t know much about the subject, that so-called arranged marriages are not rigid, you-vill-do-as-I-say set-ups, but rather something that takes a variety of shapes and forms for different people and it’s not a one-size-fits-all thingy at all.
And exoticization, why? Because it reports on something that is not mainstream in the US? Did you look at the slide show of photos? I saw a group of people wearing clothes that they most likely don’t wear every day, that are part of a cultural tradition, for a special occasion. Is it really much different than, say, a groom of Scottish origin wearing a kilt and maybe family and friends doing the same? What about African- Americans jumping over a broom? Is all that exoticization?
give me my indian values and culture anyday in regards to this matter. End rant.
Wait, wait, you forgot to mention 5,000 years of culture. Seriously though, I really have a problem with this. I think every country and every society has both its pros and its cons. I was born and raised in the US, and can list as many faults this country has along with what’s good about it. I’d feel just as comfortable doing the same about the countrie sin Europe where I’ve lived, and even India. But your “give me my indian values” comment just sounds so absolute, with no grey areas. I’ve been to India several times and often find myself contradicting people who wrinkle up their noses or come out with blatant, inaccurate generalizations, but, like anywhere, I will also admit it is not perfect. Nowhere is. That’s what makes it interesting, hai na?
Punjabi Boy – competition is good, remember?
Now……make us laugh! I command you!
Because its fun…what else is there in life that can make you feel good so quickly than bitching and prejudice? Well, whenever my self esteem is low, I always make a wisecrack about someone less fortunate than me, oh how my sides split and I feel great afterwards you cant imagine…
You missed out “Why cant people be nice to lickle fluffy bunny wabbits?”
I am against being nice – if the world was happy it would be so boring.
Well, why can’t people be nice to little, er, whatever you were trying to say. Is this a Britishism?
GC –
buddy, live in your own world. As far as I know its a lot easier to get white chics than desi ones even if you are 5’0. Even the most FOBiest of FOBs have no problems getting white chics. Maybe there is something as ‘preference’ which you aren’t aware of!!
Otherizing accents?? So you are alluding that because of their accents they dont get white chics and hence stick to desi?? I do not think that accents are that big of a deal to whites as they are to self conscious 2nd gens as yourself. Secondly, 1.5 gens (depending on how they are categorized) are equally liberal, if not more, than 2nd gens. Finally, while a lot of FOBs do have arranged marriages back home, there is a signifcant number of whom who dont and instead end up marrying here inter-caste and inter-racially as well – but ofcourse they dont qualify as americans and so dont screw up your stats.
MD
I’m like one of those guys that can only make you laugh spontaneously – like if you tell me to make you laugh, I just freeze and cant do it. But if you’re just sitting there and I’m just sitting there too, I’ll probably make you life so much your teeth will fall out, I’m sooooo hilarious – I once made my nephew laugh so much he wet his pants (he was only seven)
lickle fluffy bunny wabbits = little fluffy bunny rabbits
PB:
Ok, that picture made me laugh out loud. Mission Accomplished.
I promise to try and be more light-hearted and be less serious on this board. Did you hear the one about…..
Outmarriage does have some additional baggage which would not exist if we were to marry a fellow desi. Even the most Americanized desis run into ‘cultural problems’. These cultural problems stem from the family though. So unless your family is completely Americanized, be prepared to face some problems which will result from the ‘culture/religious gap’ between your family and the family of your spouse. I have outmarried and I would have it no other way. I do feel like dropping a cautionary line in this thread where outmarriage is being celebrated. My family is religious (Indian Muslim) and my wife’s family is religious as well (Baptist). I am completey irreligious and so is my wife. However we are both close to our families and it invariably leads to awkward situations and tussles. The situation gets even more complicated with kids. In the grand scheme, such problems are of course ‘minor’. However these problems (however minor) are a product of our diverse background and something which should be considered/discussed before we outmarry.
I do not think that accents are that big of a deal to whites as they are to self conscious 2nd gens as yourself
So true.
On a tangential note to the whole arranged marriage brouhaha, I’ve noticed that Indian parents in the West are often a lot more relaxed about caste and regional pairings that would make them faint back home. The two most recent weddings I attended were those of a Punjabi groom and a Tamil bride, and a Gujurati groom and an Indo-Guyanese bride. When they first step on American/Canadian/UK soil, Indian parents might cherish fond dreams of their munchkins growing up to marry the perfect Punjabi/Gujju/Mallu, but once the kids grow up, they’re probably just happy if they find someone from the subcontinent.
Amba,
I used to hear this from my ex- as he speculated about how much or how little his family would disapprove of us….. i think the hierarchy went like this (with #1 being most preferred):
1: same SI group/state, same religion, same sub-group of religion
2: same SI group, same religion
3: same SI group/state
4: Indian (but NOT Muslim)
5: Shudra
6: Indian Muslim (or was Muslim slightly better than Shudra…)
7: non-Indian
8: Black
Anything after #4 was sufficient cause for much weeping and gnashing of teeth, if not total banishment from the family fold.
Without wishing to digress too much (I’m lying, I enjoy digressing. I am a digresser. Digressor?), I’m a bit shocked by how nice some of you are.
Insulting white people – wrong. Insulting desis that don’t fit into whatever box – wrong.
But come on, if we can’t insult fat people or ugly people, WHAT KIND OF A WORLD IS THIS? I thought America was built on freedom of speech. Was it not written four score and seven years ago, that all men are created equal – just not the porkers and the fuglies? Georgie Washington said so himself, as he punched James Madison Jr for falling out of the ugly tree.
What did Mangal Pandey fight for? Kamat’s Porpourri don’t tell you this shit homey – he wanted the right to call people ugly. The only reason Jinnah caused trouble is because nobody said “Hey shut it skeleton boy”. Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Hitler – NONE of them were told how ugly they were as children. Look at the results.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that wide loads and mingers are there to be mocked, and so be it! Freedom! FREEDOM!
like satti and aborting or killing female babies? treating daughter-in-laws like indentured servants? While I have mixed thoughts on the topic of divorce, I certainly can’t support a culture that preaches to my sisters that they should STAY in a marriage where they get beaten up or treated like absolute trash, just because societal pressures are too much for the parents to face the facts that they’ll have to answer auntie-uncle’s questioning why their kid is divorced.
nor do I agree with many of the so-called “family values” or lack thereof that american culture seems to perpetuate.
Hey, I’m as proud as the next half-desi, but there is no perfect culture with flawless values.
As for Punjabi Boy: darling you know there is no other. Often imitated, perhaps. But like the Highlander, there can only be one…
BB- what’s a minger?
Bong Breaker – yo stupid bengali wannabe british idiot ! sorry mate, just excercizing me freedom.
And people marrying into Muslim families. The more conservative/traditional culture is the bottleneck.
Oh Lord Bong Breaker – throw my priggish words back at me, will you! Anyhoo, have at it, my funny and witty British blog-friends….if you use your precious freedom to insult, to tweak, to slam and to vent, then remember, this, please do it in a clever fashion. For the children.
DesiDancer
Awwww thanks sweetheart – I love you too baby!!
Minger:
a male or female who fell out of the ugly tree at birth and hit every branch on the way down