The best coverage I have seen on this topic comes from the Human Rights in India Blog, run by the Human Rights organization Ensaaf. Ensaaf has done some truly excellent work on the Delhi 1984 Pogroms. Here they compare the Nanavati Commission report to their own investigation of the subject:
The report fails in similar ways as the Misra Commission report. In its report, Twenty Years of Impunity: The November 1984 Pogroms of Sikhs in India, ENSAAF analyzes thousands of pages of previously unavailable affidavits, government records and arguments submitted to the 1985 Misra Commission, established to examine the Sikh Massacres in Delhi, Kanpur, and Bokaro. The report reveals the systematic and organized manner in which state institutions, such as the Delhi Police, and Congress (I) officials perpetrated mass murder in November 1984 and later justified the violence in inquiry proceedings.
… police officers not only passively observed the violence, but also actively participated in the attacks and made promises of impunity to assailants. Senior officers: ordered their subordinates to ignore attacks against Sikhs; ordered policemen to disarm Sikhs to increase their vulnerability to attack; systematically disabled and neutralized any officers who attempted to deviate from the norm of police inaction and instigation; released culprits; and manipulated police records in order to destroy the paper trail of the violence and protect criminals from the possibility of effective future prosecutions. At all times, the police and their superiors had sufficient force and knowledge to effectively counter the violence.
ENSAAF’s report further demonstrates the involvement of the Congress Party in organizing the massacres. Senior political leaders provided for details such as deployment of mobs, weapons and kerosene, as well as for the larger support and participation of the police. They conducted meetings the night before the onslaught of the massacres where they distributed weapons, money, voter and ration lists identifying Sikhs and their properties, and in inflammatory speeches, instructed attendees to kill Sikhs.
Grave lapses in police investigations, delays in filing cases, the failure to identify and investigate prosecution witnesses, the deliberate misrecording of witness statements, and the failure to comply with legal procedures precluded effective prosecutions against major perpetrators.Over the last 20 years, prior to the Nanavati commission, a commission of inquiry and eight committees have been set up to investigate the pogroms. Officially, 2,733 people were killed but only a handful of people have been convicted.
You can read their report on-line. It is a travesty that politicians with blood on their hands are such central actors in the current government.
‘Travesty’ is not a word strong enough to describe the moral degeneracy of this – it is stinking fetid EVIL and a defecation on the bodies of the slaughtered and the very soul of India – the government is soiled and stained and blood stained and it wallows in its moral filth – read what they did to children and women and men – then I see pictures of Tytler and I want to rip him to shreds with my hands – and he is being protected.
No, travesty is the wrong word for this.
Punjabi Boy, I think you’re over the top a little here. Easy, tiger.
Ennis, The ’20 Years of Impunity’ report was meant as a corrective to the old, Misra Commission report on the pogroms.
There was a hope that the new report would lead to stronger government action. For a long time (I don’t really remember how long), the government has been sitting on the Nanavati report, without ‘tabling it’. The news over the weekend was that they finally tabled it, along with this ‘Action Taken Report’ (ATR) that essentially ignores its conclusions.
I think the new event is interesting because it suggests a split within the government about what to do about the legacy of 1984. There are people who are sincerely working to uncover the true history, but there are others who essentially go with political expediency.
It’s not a big conspiracy…
Even G.T. Nanavati himself is dissatisfied with the ATR, though if so one wonders why he used the word “very probably” to begin with. He had sworn testimony (which is in itself a kind of miracle) against Jagdish Tytler from a credible witness, so I think he could have used stronger language. In that sense, Jaskaraan is probably right to say that the Nanavati Comission report has “many of the same failings” as the earlier Misra Commission report…
Amardeep
Having read the testimonies of what happened in 1984 inside out and studied the Nanavati report and watched how Tytler and the other MoFo’s have been protected I think my response is restrained.
They did it – they were the slaughterers – and they have been given cabinet briefs. Just compare that to how it works in America and Britain – compare and contrast.
The whole edifice is rotten – Tytler through to Modi – it is still happening right now – they are holding these people to be more important not only than the victims but the whole constitution and reputation of India – that is the Gandhi-Congress Mafia for you – rotten to the core.
Punjabi Boy,
I share your disappointment about how this has turned out — I also think they need to be be punished for the crimes they committed.
But I cringe when you write things like “I want to rip them to shreds with my hands.”
Hi,
I fully agree that we (Indians all over the world) are guilty of unleashing collective frenzy to Sikhs in 1984 and the massacre that ensued – by participating or with meek condemnation. A number of prominent Congress politicians (and other parties too) and also the part of government machinery have been clearly shown was involved.
I sincerely hope Manmohan Singh (a Sikh himself) Government will bring closure to that sad chapter and the entire community (Indians in India/ USA/ US/ Kenya) should put pressure on him. We all have to mature collectively and I am glad that people are not letting the issue die. If Sepia Mutiny wants to start a petition, I will be the first to sign it.
I was in Roorkee at that time and the students of IIT, Roorkee (then University of Roorkee) hid all the Sikh students in secret places so that they may not fall prey to bigotry even though nothing happened in Roorkee. Also, most of the prominent Indians newspapers stood up against very strongly the hatred immediately but that wasnÂ’t enough. For few days, we had forgotten humanity. I remember reading the front-page editorial of Times of India (when it was a real newspaper) and hanging my head in shame.
Kush
Amardeep
All they would have to do to restore some semblance of dignity or morality would be to give them up – give up Tytler and the rest – not only did they not do that – Congress gave them seats and cabinet berths – how can Manmohan Singh sit there with that cockroach in his cabinet?
Tytler and Kumar will start singing like canaries if they are indicted – they will start squealing about where the orders came from – and you know where they came from but nobody wants to admit it – right from the top. That is why they are protecting them – nothing must be done to stain the name of GOD errr sorry I mean the Gandhi family.
That is nonsense – nobody is to blame but those who participated – the idea of collective responsibility is what was the root of the slaughter in the first place – nobody is responsible except for those who did the deed.
Amardeep
I am sorry if you flinch but it is my gut feeling – lots of people were ripped to shreds by their lackeys in those three days.
The hilarious thing is that Tytler is Minister for Non Resident Indians – what a joke – that means he is ‘Minister’ for you and me and our families and all the other Sikhs in the diaspora – what a black black joke – look at the position this has put the government of India in – because the next time he tries to step foot in England you can be sure I along with thousands of others will be dogging his every move in protest just like Modi was when he was invited to America – now, lets leave apart the EVIL of the man for one second – what kind of stupidity and in-bred blindness causes Congress party to sell the whole of India down the road for a sleazeball like Tytler?
Punjabi Boy,
I absolutely feel your pain. 1984 is probably one of the darkest moments in the history of independent India, as far as the abuse of government power is concerned. What happened was utterly despicable and should never ever be allowed to happen again. Ripping Tytler’s or Sajjan Kumar’s throat apart is too easy a punshment for those scumbags – I’d prefer that they rot in prison for 20 years, get “used” every day and come out with an HIV infection.
Gujjubhai
Hi,
Roorkee is about 100 miles north of Delhi and I have talked to many Sikhs from Delhi over the years. It was free for all – and you do not call it collective reponsibility. I really hope a Sikh from Delhi speaks up.
As I said politicians and government machinery were involved but the man on the street was not innocent. Sure, the ring leaders should be punished. I fully agree Tytler should be brought to trail.
Kush
I am going to take a break from this website for a few days before I say anything else really nasty and violent about certain individuals and my blood cools down a little – this issue is too much for me to take – see you all later!
Punjabi Boy – I completely agree with your sentiments. I feel the same way every time i hear praise for Indira Gandhi. Some people just have difficulty expressing emotions and instead prefer to categorize events like 1984 as just historical facts.
I can’t stand when people justify that everything is okay now because a Sikh is prime minister. Any man who can keep those people in government doesn’t deserve to be called a Sikh.
“involvement of the Congress Party in organizing the massacres. Senior political leaders provided for details such as deployment of mobs, weapons and kerosene, as well as for the larger support and participation of the police. They conducted meetings the night before the onslaught of the massacres where they distributed weapons, money, voter and ration lists identifying Sikhs and their properties, and in inflammatory speeches, instructed attendees to kill Sikhs.” Huh! Too bad that police had to rely on ration and voter lists. It will be much easier if they have a standardized national ID card list. That way, they can have photo identification and name of possible victims. And yes, there is this horrible obstacle called freedom of press that comes in the way of riots. And thus it will help if banks, insurance companies, utility companies are nationalized and import of paper is controlled. That way, you can easily seize bank accounts, turn off electric power, water supply, etc. for the victims and press persons who write against the government. I am also glad that we are not allowed to own weapons without getting license. That’s just too much! You mean people want to defend themselves with weapons? What has the world come to!
Amardeep, exactly my comment in yr prevs post. If Nanavati was being true to himself, why did he feel the need to push in a ‘very probably’ in that. I smell something fishy here.
Punjabi Boy:
“…Compare and contrast…”
I couldn’t agree more. It’s truly shameful, and I hope the protests by the Opposition parties forces the Congress party to back down–but that’s a slim hope, I know.
The Congress party’s insistence that the evidence gathered by Justice Nanavati isn’t sufficient to convict Tytler is a dodge, of course. Even Justice Nanavati’s reading of the evidence is sufficient to open, at the least, an FIR (First Information Report) against Tytler: Why doesn’t the Congress party allow the police to bring an FIR against Tytler ? If the evidence isn’t enough to convict Tytler, then let the police see if they can build a case against him.
I raise this possibility not as a debating point but as a practical way to force the GOI to reverse course. Once the police investigation starts in the full glare of the media spotlight, it will be difficult for the GOI to bury the issue. We must continue to press the GOI on this issue.
Kumar
PunjabiBoy writes:
You will get your ass kicked if you try to protest against Tytler or SajjanKumar. Coming from a strong Congressi family background, I can vouch for the fact that Congress is very vicious when protecting its turf. National borders will not deter it from pursuing you.
You folks think that everyone is a pushover like Modi. It’s one thing to organise petitions against BJP leaders, call for their visa cancellation etc etc. The Hindu leadership of BJP being weak and disorganised, will not be able to fight you.(Hinduism in this context is synonymous with Weakness). You will win. And the Hindus will go back to their jobs and retirement planning. There will be no vindictiveness.
Try doing the same with Congress leaders, and you will have to watch your back for a very long time – even if you are not living in India.
If there is one name which is not being heard in all this, it is that of Rajiv Gandhi. It is well known that it was he who gave the go-ahead for the killings. He was the one who uttered: “when a big tree falls, the earth is bound to shake”. And after the riots, the people elected him, and the US invited him to the White House.
The same US that cancelled Modi’s visa on frivolous grounds. Poor Modi. He had to contend with the fact that across Gujarat, normal middle class Hindus went out on the street after muslims. In most places, the police were outnumbered 1000 to 1. The army was busy with a tense situation in the Pakistani Border. It needed 3-4 days to come to Modi’s aid(he asked for army aid right away). He never made the statement: Every action… It was a lie concocted by vested interests. He did everything he could to stop the riots. His only guilt was that he failed. And failed man has many enemies. If there is a patsier patsy than Modi, I have not heard of him/her.
Rajiv was the true genocidal tyrant. Tytler/Sajjan are just pawns in the game.
M. Nam
Kush – the man on the street wasn’t innocent, but this was not a grass roots violent incident like some, this was an organized pogrom.
They trucked in gundas at a time when petrol and transport were in short supply.
They forced the police to avert their eyes, and even drive away reporters, so that these gundas could act in impunity.
They gave out lists of where Sikhs lived, so that they could be found. [I believe that Sikhs in mixed neighborhoods were more at risk, those in largely Sikh neighborhoods were able to hold the mobs at bay. Within mixed neighborhoods, their neighbors sometimes tried to protect or hide them, but it wasn’t easy]
Sure, the foot soldiers who engaged in this, for fun or profit, are guilty. But they never could have acted without the state and party facilitating all of it.
Even President Zail Singh was afraid for his life and had trouble getting protection.
The fact that all of this happened so quickly after Indira Gandhi was assasinated argues that this was pre-planned and ready to go. Think of how hard it is to get anything out of the Indian bureaucracy! How on earth did they have all of the information and logistical support in place?
Having a Sikh PM is hollow if Sonia Gandhi makes him share a cabinet with those butchers.
I wonder what Manmohan Singh’s experience was in 1984 …
— Sikh Dude
After the 1984 pogroms, I was instructed by my family in Delhi never to talk about politics in public, or in a gathering where non-family members were present. And my family was staunch congress for decades, some of my relatives were even minor politicians just after Independence.
Things may have eased somewhat now, but I will never feel truly free to speak my mind in India the way I do here. Which is ironic, all things considered.
Why is congress party getting a free pass as a secular party? While modi created a media hurricane (rightly in my opinion), the media tend to equivocate when it comes to congress pogroms in 1984. Are muslim lives worth more than sikh lives?
Don’t expect the manmohan to do anything. He used to be good in the 1990’s but for the past few years he is acting like sonia gandhi’s house servant. Just like he praised the tyrannical british rule some time back, he will praise the murderous rajiv gandhi and his cohorts.
Also, secular is as secular does. While the ideology of Congress has always been secular, by Indira’s time she was using religious imagery and behavior in a way that watered down the commitment to secularism.
Sikh dude, that is a sad and false statement to make, considering that #1, I am part Sikh, and #2 I have many Sikh friends, who will never forgive Congress, but live in Delhi even now, and vocally push the BJP into coming to power. What happened in 1984 was awful as was 1947, 1993, 2002, everyday, yesterday and tomorrow. But if you genuinely feel that there is no freedom of Speech in India, then you are doing a disservice to the country. In fact, I could quote the opposite – I dare you to say September 11th was a justified act in the US of A, and manage to get home without being murdered by a rifle-toting bible-thumper.
MoorNam nice try at trying to raise the alarms, and hyping everything out of the scope of reality. I’m out on the streets a lot these days, and I say a lot of things against those to sons-of-bitches, in Public, in Delhi. I’m still alive. I must, of course, be the exception. In fact, after the release of the report, there was a large protest by Sikhs, in New Delhi. I happened to drive straight past it. It was peaceful. They were clearly calling Sajjan Kumar and Shytler murderers vocally and openly. I didn’t see any bloodbath happen in that case. On loads of news channels loads of Sikh leaders were protesting, and openly stating who they thought was to blame. The news reporter kept harassing tytler and asking him to respond. Are all of these people dead/going-to-be-dead because this apparent veheement Congress? I won’t argue about their thugs and underworld connections. But please, let’s not take things overboard here.
siddarth writes:
Was there any doubt about that?
Muslim voters: ~150 million(across India). Plus there is an international angle, what with OIC voicing “concern” about muslims in India.
Sikh voters: ~25 million(concentrated in 2 regions)
Who’s more important? You do the math.
M. Nam
Sikh Dude,
I fully (200 %) agree with you, Sir ji. Yes, It was not grass root violence and was instigated in a systematic manner. I had read Manmohan Singh’s experience in 1984 recently but since I do not remember the details enough to put them on print
The only reason I brought up was that I heard first-hand that some shopkeepers in Delhi were handing out free kerosene.
I am not trying to lighten the guilt of the Congress politicians, their hench-men, and police officers in any sense. I also agree that something so quick in India has to be pre-planned.
Kush
“ideology of congress has always been secular”
How do you explain their support for muslim personal law and state support for Haj pilgrimage? If you have read Mukul Kesavan’s article that amardeep linked, you will see that congress sided with fundamentalist muslim outfits during 1930’s to defeat moderate muslims like Jinnah (yes, at least in 1930’s).
In Kerala, where I come from, they openly have alliance with christian and muslim parties. What kind of secularism is that?
Jagdish Tytler looks like a third-man of Osama – has a mullah like beard.
What a great picture Tytler used for the home page of his website – http://www.jagdishtytler.com/homepage.jpg
Moornam,
You stated “The army was busy with a tense situation in the Pakistani Border. It needed 3-4 days to come to Modi’s aid(he asked for army aid right away). He never made the statement: Every action… It was a lie concocted by vested interests. He did everything he could to stop the riots. His only guilt was that he failed”
Have you no sense of decency, sir?
It looks like there is going to be a discussion of the Nanavati report in the Lok Sabha tomorrow. Jagdish Tytler is not completely off the hook yet.
Also, dozens of people were injured in protests in Delhi. Sikhs and BJP supporters were protesting together.
Interestingly, the Indian left is also outraged by the Nanavati report.
Its comical to see the Hinduvta types beat up on Congress and defend Modi at the same time. None of them really care about what happened to the Sikhs. They care about beating up on Congress though.
I still cant get over the fact that the people in Delhi actually elected Sajjan Kumar after the pogrom ! This of course is no different from the 70% votes given to Modi after the Gujarat pogrom.
India has a shameful post partition history of state sanctioned violence against minorities. Punishing criminals like Sajjan Kumar would be the first step towards India becoming a ‘liberal’ democracy.
Seriously, this is a turning point. If India shining, Indian modernization, joining the global economy is to be anything other than a sham, it’s here and now. Indians must refuse to accept this bullshit report.
I am reading up some stuff on the Delhi riots and the eye witness accounts are too macabre for me to post here. How does Sajjan Kumar sleep at night ?
Al Mujahid for debauchery,
I’ve read countless such pages of “evidence”, all from the usual suspects: HRW, Communalism Combat(funded by Congress), SAHMAT(funded by Congress). When cross-questioned for simple statements like(“Anyone among you who actually saw/heard Modi making statements, please raise your hands”), they are hummed and haawed.
Points to consider:
Riots did happen. There was some police collusion. Innocent muslim(and Hindu) life was lost. Should not have happened.
Modi was never seen or heard anywhere goading the rioters(unlike here thousands of eye-witnesses saw Tytler, Sajjan and other Congress leaders goading to kill. Rajiv’s statement about a big tree falling was carried in national papers – he never denied saying that.)
Modi did call for the army. Even the army was overwhelmed initially.
Order was restored. But, damage was done.
However, the people of Gujarat perceived Modi to be honest(despite a hostile media telling them otherwise) and hence re-elected him with a thumping victory. Democracy won.
No court or government commission has had held him guilty. Unlike here where government commissions have named specific people like Tytler.
So there.
Decency involves following the law and believing in institutions that are appointed by the law. Extra-judicial NGO’s have no right to indict anyone based on interviews of random people.
Decency involves respecting the decision of the people.
Decency involves making sure that the problems of a country are solved within the country, and making sure that outsiders are not brought in to punish fellow countrymen(like visa refusals etc).
Now, let’s see if all those who campaiged for Modi’s visa refusal: Communists in academia(Angana Chatterjee, Akhila Raman, Arundhati Roy, Raju Rajagopal etc etc), Indian Muslim Council of USA(which is associated with the terrorist outfit CAIR), Indian Christian Association of USA, etc etc will run a campaign against Tytler(who I think is a Christian) and Sajjan Kumar.
My bet is: they won’t. They know the wrath of the Congress. Heck – it was Congress that bred these scoundrels. How will they bite the hand that fed them once?
Decency ka baat karta hai.
M. Nam
Tytler himself is tomtomming around town. Excerpts:
I just don’t know whehter to laugh at his claim or break thru my monitor and wring his neck…
Oye SM ! blockquotes are broken. I tried both IE/FFox.
Except for first and last line..everything shd be in bq, it’s from that newsreport.
Movable Type is weird like that. Use <br>s instead of line breaks inside a blockquote.
Moornam, May I humbly draw your attention towards these extensive cell phone records analysed by IndianExpress. Five-part series, starting here. Gives some idea as to what CM, entire police force (frm commissioner, to constable), state-machinery and entire SaffronBrigade elsewhere were upto while there was blood on the streets. Pls read this before saying Modi ‘failed’.
Let me say at the outset that I condemn both the 1984 and 2002 Gujarat events.
But objectively looking at the data, one difference clearly jumps out. Having lived several years in Gujarat (different cities), I can tell that in some sectors there is a tendency of animosity and score settling(almost palpable) between Hindu and Muslim community.
I think(well I am sure) that, that tendency does not exist between Hindus and Sikhs of Delhi.
As a result it is clear that, a far more active government role and planning only could have resulted in the events of ’84 against the Sikhs.
Like “Sikh Dude” said in an earlier comment, Gundas were bused in. A lot of planning went in for this event. That makes it particularly horrific and condemnable.
Any one who grew up in or around Delhi area can tell that there was no immediate spontaneous ill-feeling towards Sikh community(from the majority) right after Indira Gandhi assasination.
Suhail,
I’ve read it: Pande called Mehta. 38 seconds. Mehta called Tandon 43 seconds. Tandon called Shah 88 seconds. Shah called Police Inspector. 44 seconds.
So, investigate Pande, Mehta, Tandon, Shah and the Police Inspector. Whom did Modi call? Who called Modi? If you have no answer to that, then I will assert that Modi was made a patsy.
BTW, Modi is not popular within the BJP ranks. He is supposed to have broken the backs of dockyard and land mafia. He is supposed to have put an end to power theft by farmers(a big BJP stronghold). He is supposed to have forced the municipalities and talukas to make records transparent(another BJp bastion). He has reduced corruption to the levels of Europe and the West. Gujarat has gone miles ahead when it comes to economy as compared to other states since Modi took over.
Indeed – he has hurt the crooked elements in BJP more than anyone else. Enemies within. Enemies without.
Yet the people love him and vote for him.
I hope you are working on a petition against Tytler and Sajjan.
M. Nam
MoorNam,
Did it ever occur to you that its possible to be against both Modi and Sajjan/Tyler ?
This is not about whether Gujarat was worse than Delhi. Its not about Congress v. BJP. The Congress is guilty for the Delhi riot and is still guilty for protecting these criminals. This does not however absolve Modl’s government.
Start thinking about Gujarat and Delhi as human rights issues and not partisan political issues.
AMfd, brilliantly put, and it applies to the Sri Lanka gov’t and the Tamil Tigers as well.
Moornam, AlMujahid(#38) has said everything that I wanted to. I’ll just add one more point. I don’t deny any economic progress which Gujarat would have made under Modi, nor do I deny that he would got corruption levels down. Hats off to him if he did that, really!! However, how is that supposed to absolve him of the blood he has on his hands? This is like saying, Azhar was the most successfull captain, so forgive his match-fixing, or Pataudi was a great hitter, and popular with masses, so forgive him his shootings of rare species. Hell, no!!
Remember Hitler? He was also popular.
As for petitions, that bait is not worth rising upto.
“If India shining, Indian modernization, joining the global economy is to be anything other than a sham, it’s here and now. Indians must refuse to accept this bullshit report”.
I agree that it’s bullshit report and indians should refuse to accept it — for the sake of justice and human rights. But I don’t see how it’s linked to India’s stance in global economy. China, a country with one of the most egregious human rights record, is positively perceived as a leading player in the global economy.
Economic and political freedom go hand-in-hand in the long run. It’s why many think India may eventually surpass China unless China reforms.
Amfd,
Just as petitions were made against Modi by IMC/Commies etc, if there were petitions made by the same people against Rajiv/Sajjan/Tytler, then I have not seen them. Please post the links to those.
Just as BritishMuslimCouncil asked that Modi be tried under International law, if there are any similiar demands made by that group or any other group against Rajiv/Tytler/Sajjan, then I am ignorant about it. Please let this village idiot know of such demands.
Just as testimony was provided by Indian citizens to the US commission of Religious Freedom against Modi(an Indian citizen), if there have been any depositions made against Rajiv/Tytler/Sajjan, then I am clueless. Please provide references to those.
Until then – I will continue to believe that folks with vested interests have made Modi a patsy.
M. Nam
TTG: I’m speaking from my own experience. I know exactly what you mean about the chilling effect on speech in the USA, but I have to say, the restrictions I place on myself so as not to hurt my family in India are more onerous. I don’t talk about Indian politics while out of the house. I don’t talk about it if we have friends over.
It’s possible that the time for such hesitation has passed. I started acting this way in the immediate aftermath of the pogroms, and 20 years later, things may well be different. But after what I saw, knowing that these guys are still in power, I have no desire to take chances with my family’s welfare. Maybe if I lived there, I would be bolder. But as a visitor, I have to respect their situation.
You have to remember that the state came down hard on Sikhs across India in 1984. A relative in Assam was arrested on trumped up charges, because the judge wanted a bribe, and knew that nobody would care if a keshdari Sikh vanished. Another more distant relative was far away from Delhi, at University, when the police shot and killed him. We’re not talking about a firebreathing radical, we’re talking about an apolitical college kid.
I consider myself very lucky. That one distant relative was the only one to die. Our family got away with just property damage. But since then, for me personally, India could never be my home.
I consider myself very lucky. That one distant relative was the only one to die. Our family got away with just property damage. But since then, for me personally, India could never be my home.
SikhDude, I am terribly sad to hear about your family’s experiences. Communal riots leave such deep scars on people and create a terrible mistrust among people. It is quite understandable that you feel thaat way.
However, I am not sure if that’d be the right way to think about it. A major difference I see between India and the Us is that when people are persecuted adn victimized, people tend to stay back and fight in the US. If, for example, blacks in the south had the same attitude as you in sixties, would there be a civil rights movement?
I truly believe that, on the whole, India is a far more tolerant society than the US and has done reasonably well inspite of having to deal with a tremendously more challenging environment of diversity. The challenges ar enot only the mind-boggling diversity of religion, languages and so so on but also in terms of the bloody history of the subcontinent with pretty well at least one huge crisis every decade – linguistic riots in 60’s, emergency in the 70’s, Punjab in 80’s and Kashmir in 90’s and Gujarat in 2000’s. Compare that with the US where the government indiscriminately started violating civil rights and throwing people in Guantanamo Bay after just one crisis.
The question I keep struggling with is this : why are we not looking at the people who courageously stayed back, fought for/are fighting for their rights and in that process, contributing to making Inda a better place for future? Why is our first instinct to cut and run as if we have no stake in the future of India? If anything, the India media and popular opinion has been much more vociferous in support of the victims – well, unless those victims happen to be Kashmiri Hindus, but that’s a different topic altogether. But it seems to me that the Indian political system reform a lot faster if we all engaged a lot more vigorously in the political process. Why not think about it from that perspective rather than hating all of India – which is quite unfair if I may add because the common Hindu never had any ill-will against the common Sikh, this being purely a Congress-driven vendetta and political abuse?
I know I’m splitting hairs here, but your analogy just doesn’t work.
There is a difference here, albeit technical, still a major difference. The guys in Guantanamo aren’t US CITIZENS that were rounded up from Memphis or San Francisco by henchmen of a political party in power. They were people caught in foreign territories in the battle field, some innocent, some not so innocent. It’s the issue of giving those accused due process that is central to Guantanamo.
They’re also folks who are incarcerated, not slaughtered/attacked by roaming henchmen/mobs of political parties as in the case of Gujarat or Punjab.
During the civil rights movement, the Federal Govt. was actively protecting the African American minority and fighting the states who were engaged in bigotry.
In the case of Punjab, the central govt. was an active participant against a minority. Indira Gandhi’s approach was very stalinist. Top heavy.
The big difference that I can see between the Gujarat and Punjab incidents is that after Gujarat, human rights groups and some part of the system has show the fortitude to fight. How far this will go, who knows. Times are different though with media more diverse, powerful, and free in India. The better informed the masses have more accurate facts to their disposal and ultimately more power.
India is changing at a rapid pace; As a young democracy it’s going through the growing pains, which the United States had some 200 years to spread it over, at an accelerated 60 years and still counting catching up to developed nations.
Just like the segregated south may have been a bad place to live 40 years ago for Blacks, today, the situation is quite different. Similarly, things have changed in India, despite the horrible demons of the past.
However, as a whole, civil rights and laws protecting them are better enforced in the United States today. That’s a fact, doesn’t mean India isn’t close or won’t get there.
The bureaucracy needs some major fixin, the people deserve a more efficient system, but the people are the ones who ulitmately decide. It’s an evolution.
In the case of Punjab, the central govt. was an active participant against a minority. Indira Gandhi’s approach was very stalinist. Top heavy.
Oh, absolutely no argument there : I think Indira’s rule was perhaps the darkest time in the history of independent India. She peaked right in the beginning, making that one stellar and glorious contribution to the history of the subcontinent by liberating Bangladesh from the bloodthirsty murderers of Yahya, although she did allow them a free reign for about 9 months to perpetrate a terrible genocide. After that, her rule was an unmitigated disaster, lurching from emergency to the cultivation of Bhindrawale and indirectly fanning the Punjab militancy.
Having said that, you must recognize that in the eighties, India did not have the institutional infrastructure to investigate, prosecute and convict terrorists in Punjab. In fact, given that terrorists have made Kashmiri hindus homeless refugees in their own homeland, I’d argue that India is stil incapable of handling domestic terrorism within its institutional framework today. Anyway, in the 80’s, the Press and the Civil Society were not nearly as free or developed as they are today because Indira ruled with a very heavy hand.
Punjab militancy was also the first major proxy war launched by Pakistan against India. For example, as many as five aircrafts of Indian airlines were hijacked between 1980 and 1984 by Pakistan-based militant sikh organizations and virtually every day Hindus were getting killed in Punjab. Bhindrawale had taken over The Golden Temple as his fort with tons of arms and ammunition. Today people don’t realize it, but Punjab in the eighties was the most difficult challenge to the integrity of India, especially because Pakistan tried to divide Hindus and Sikhs – two communities that historically always had good relations. If anything, Sikhs in India were seen as, and still are, a model minority – kinda’ like desis in US. Sikhs are successful in every sphere of Indian civil society and are very much part of the Indian mainstream.
Under these circumstances, the central government did not really have a choice but to deal with the threat with a heavy hand. KPS gill indeed violated many civil rights and thousands of innocent Sikh lives were lost. However, in the big picture, he did manage to bring Punjab back to normalcy and today Punjab is one of the few success stories among states in North India.
So while I’d agree that the central government went after militants with a heavy hand and violated the human rights of many Sikhs in that process, it is far from true to say that it went after Sikhs in general. If that were the case, India would’ve most certainly lost Punjab. KPS Gill was most certainly not a Yahya, and Indian army did not rape, plunder, pillage and kill in Punjab like the genocide in East Bengal. That is why KPS gill still remains a respected part of the Indian establishment.
Moornam,
I stated “Did it ever occur to you that its possible to be against both Modi and Sajjan/Tyler?”
You replied with “Just as petitions were made against Modi by IMC/Commies etc, if there were petitions made by the same people against Rajiv/Sajjan/Tytler, then I have not seen them. Please post the links to those.
Interesting. So because IMC did not petition the US government against Sajjan Kumar, this means that the IMC was not against the Sikh pogrom in Delhi. So unless IMC protests against every human rights violation, it implicitly endorses it ? This is absurd and the burden on IMC cannot be met, especially considering the fact that IMC as an organization did not even exist in the 80’s.
Anyway, the IMC does care about the Anti-Sikh riots and here is the link
IMC-USA welcomes the sentencing of killers of 1984 Anti-Sikh pogrom, urges UPA govt. to implement the recommendations of the Nanawati Commission.
KPS Gill was most certainly not a Yahya, and Indian army did not rape, plunder, pillage and kill in Punjab like the genocide in East Bengal
So what ? What does thar prove ? That KPS Gill was better than the genocidal Pakistani army in Bangladesh? Is the standard now the Pakistani genocide in Bangladesh ? This red herring does not provide any context and is a lame attempt at minimizing the suffering of the victims of KPS. I think its extremely unfortunate that we keep brining up these ridiculous comparisons. What are we supposed to do ? Be happy that KPS Butcher Gill was better than Yahya Khan ? I guess if I bring up the Pakistani genocide, someone will mention the fact that Yahya Khan was no Pol Pot. Of course Pol Pot was no General Mao. General Mao was no Stalin. Stalin was no Hitler. Hitler was no Ghenghis Khan.