Earlier, somebody asked if the incidence of hate crimes in the UK was worse now than in the past. The short answer is yes, immensely so:
In the three days after the bombing, police in London recorded 180 racial incidents. A total of 58 faith-related crimes were recorded, compared with one in the same period last year.Attacks have also been reported on mosques in Tower Hamlets and Merton, both in London, Telford, Leeds, Bristol, Birkenhead and Gloucester, and on a Sikh temple in Kent. [Guardian]
Today’s BBC Worldservice radio broadcast indicated that there have been additional reports of backlash related violence, but gave no further details. Before some of you start frothing at the mouth and comparing this to the violence of the bombings, there is no comparison. I was livid when the bombings occurred. Since then, it has only become more personal – my cousin was one of those lucky enough to dodge the bullet, passing through only 10 minutes before the bombs went off. There is no reason to mix the two issues though. The bombing does not justify anti-brown violence afterwards.
I’m a very occasional visitor here. Also I’m Indian, not Indian American. No matter how wonderfully ariculate you all are, the confusion in your minds over your identity is very obvious here. No wonder you find yourselves isolated both from the American mainstream and the Indian one. At least Sonal has the guts to come out and say what he/she really feels. The rest of you will just keep explaining your nuanced positions away into obscurity.
Ennis:
I am against pretty much all crimes, whether they are anti-white, or anti-black, anti-Hindu or anti-Muslim. I don’t see why I need to single out crimes committed due to anti-Muslim bigotry. I guess what I am saying is that the idea of a hate crime seems a bit spurious. If it is a crime, it is a crime, isn’t it?
On the other hand, I see value in “educating” cracker whities about the ways of finding out if a brown person is Hindu, Christian or Muslim. If said cracker whitey feels the need to rant about radical Islamic theology, more power to him. I would suggest he rant at those who are followers of such a theology, or those who are not opposed to it, but please leave me out of it. But under no circumstances should he resort to criminal activity.
Al Mujahid,
It is nice to see you agree that everyone should be allowed to call themselves what ever they want. It would have been nicer if you had said that to Sonal in the first place. Is it me or did I see some needless FOB/ABCD friction. It’s like our own Godwin’s law.
Nacheez,
Your moniker doesn’t quite suit the tone of your comment : )
Nacheez and others, I will explain one last time as clearly as I can. Second generation Indian-Americans, Pakistani-Americans, Sri-Lankan Americans, Chinese-Americans, Filipino-Americans, etc., all have more in common with each other than they do with their peers back in their respective motherlands. Regardless of religion. There is no “confusion” here. We all grew up with common ideals, secularism in the public sphere, and opportunities abound. When we hear people from India (even if they now live here) express attitudes like Sonal, most of us (second-gens) are disgusted. It goes against everything we were brought up to beleive and witnessed in action around us. Her views are totally foreign to us. Since this blog was created by, and primarily for second generation desi Americans (many of whom like the term South Asian), you cannot fault us for being critical of views we find so foreign to us. You are entitled to your own views about what “South Asian” or “desi” means in India, but bear in mind that your world and our world have different rules. Repeatedly calling us “confused” just undermines your credibility in the eyes of the majority of our audience. I don’t find myself “isolated” as you have put it whatsoever.
Is ‘cracker whitey’ a racist term? Just wondering….
Your degree of religiousness is strongly genetically influenced, and some people are just wired to be much more rationalist.
i know. i write about that on my weblog all the time. religious zeal, to be precise, seems to be about 0.5 heritable, in that half the variation is attributable to additive genetic variance….
Why should Razib change his name because of some psychos who share the religion of his dad? My Muslim-raised boyfriend changed his first name during art school but not his last. This was his way of dissociating from his abusive parents while hanging on to what he thought was a respectable lineage, from back in the days when Mughal emperors were important patrons of the arts and Islamic thinkers contributed enormously to the world’s knowledge. Everyone’s got their own personal and private deal with their ancestry, Razib should call himself whatever he likes. Hell, look at all the African-Americans with Arabic names, a result of the Nation of Islam’s influence on the black community. No one seems to confuse those guys with bombers. đ
As an outsider, I’ve also observed that 2nd-gen kids of immigrants (at least in the U.S., not so much in the UK) tend to have more in common with each other than peers from their “homeland.” My Indian-Filipina friend lives with her Mexican-white partner and jokes that at least he can understand her identity issues. My Korean-American friend says people in Korea make fun of her and call her fat when she visits, and thinks no one can possibly understand her but other immigrant kids. After a stint in Brazil, my Indian-white friend has expatted himself to Korea, where he’s decided he’s comfortable in a Pico Iyer kind of way.
And SR When people talk of being Indians they arenĂât implying Hindu by default. I hope you understand India isnĂât Hindu Republic and prolly is more diverse religiously than USA.
Vivek – I know India is more diverse than that religiously. Don’t talk to us desi-americans like we do not know anything about India. But what I was not understanding is why differentiating yourself as an Indian from Pakistan is enough to differentiate yourself from Islamic terrorism, which is what you all seem to want to do, when Indians are and can be Muslim as well.
I’m a very occasional visitor here. Also I’m Indian, not Indian American. No matter how wonderfully ariculate you all are, the confusion in your minds over your identity is very obvious here. No wonder you find yourselves isolated both from the American mainstream and the Indian one. At least Sonal has the guts to come out and say what he/she really feels. The rest of you will just keep explaining your nuanced positions away into obscurity.
Nacheez – we are not confused about our identities – and are not isolated from either mainstream and it is extremely rude of you to suggest so. If Indian-Americans were so excluded from the American mainstream they would not have been such an economically succesfully group in the U.S. If anything I think many of us feel fortunate to have dual identities and as cliched as it sounds “the best of both worlds.” I think this blog is a testament to that!
I suggested long ago that you change your name (in real life and the web) if youw don’t want to be treated like a Muslims. I suggest un-Muslim, non-ethnic names like ‘Blake’, Chad’, or maybe ‘Stone.
If you have a classic Bengali last name, it could sound quite nice — Stone Suhrawardy. That rocks!
i’ve gone by multiple monikers in ‘real life’ for a test drive. jaysen, claude, troy and lance were all in circulation in my different social circles. and yeah, it is something of a change to look when someone calls your name…but it’s another dude! right now razib is in too wide a circulation for me to change it. we’ll see, i’m not attached.
but as for my last name…most non-browns don’t immediately assume “khan” is muslim, though foreign muslims automatically assume i’m pakistani.
Razib, Yes the stats on the second page are about second generation Indians and they are more appropriate. The percentage of outmarriage is around 25% which is a little lower than the 40% that you found out. Lets see what rate you get if you try to poll this again.
I am presuming that the other Asians are Desis and I am not including them in the 25%.
there are so many debates on this thread it is hard to keep everything going. a lot of it is just due to the fact that we all have different experiences. there are divisions among 1.5-2 gens, who form the core of this blog, FOBs and long time 1sters who have their own angle, and brown people from southern asia. blah.
but as for my last name…most non-browns don’t immediately assume “khan” is muslim,
Are there large Pukhtun tribes settled in BDesh as well ? I am surprised that they they would go that far east.
Abhi,
ĂâWe all grew up with common ideals, secularism in the public sphereĂâ
This is not just an American attitude. Secularism is also a valid Indian ideology.
ĂâHer views are totally foreign to usĂâ
HmmĂâŚbible-thumpers from Alabama?
ĂâSince this blog was created by, and primarily for second generation desi AmericansĂâ
I saw similar statement yesterday, something about cringing when this site was included in some Indian blog awards. Suppose someone else had said the same thing ĂâI cringe when I am mistaken for a MuslimĂâ. To state your difference is fine. But to feel offended for someone elseĂâs misperception seems rude. And since this site does have a lot of India related stuff I donĂât find it wrong that Indians (from India) should want to participate. Why can’t we be more “South Asian” and be more hospitable?
Ăâbear in mind that your world and our world have different rulesĂâ
?? : )) I got my ĂârulesĂâ from my parents who are Indian, — actually they are American now, and I havenĂât noticed any rule changes.
Ăâyou cannot fault us for being critical of views we find so foreign to usĂâ
Now I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt. You are not actually saying that you are critical of someoneĂâs view just because you find them ĂâforeignĂâ. I will let you re-state that one : ))
But I do agree with you that Nacheez using the term ĂâconfusedĂâ was unwarranted.
Are there large Pukhtun tribes settled in BDesh as well ? I am surprised that they they would go that far east.
hm. don’t you know your brown history? the ghurids swept into bengal around 1200 and the various muslim foreigners never left. elite muslim society in bengal was until the 19th and 20th century non-bengali speaking, dhaka was a center of urdu literature.
anyway, khan is originally a mongolian name, 1/3 of mongols, who are buddhists still have it. its assocation with muslims is happenstance, because of the prestige that the lineage of the ‘golden family’ conferred upon the timurids. mostly it is just a title for people with some land and heft in the local area, nothing to do with ancestry, though my paternal grandfather did come from a urdu speaking family who were hereditary alams in comilla in east bengal. but my background is mixed, my paternal grandmother comes from a recently converted hindu family, i recently found out that my maternal grandfather’s name was “sharkar” and that they have memories of a kayastha hindu past. my maternal grandmother is 1/8 chinese.
http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/afx/2005/07/14/afx2138673.html
Now that it looks like the 4th bomber was Jamaican born, I wonder if the backlash will spread to the caribbean community there.
Maybe the Non Muslim Caribbeans will now insist on being referred to as ‘Christians’ and not Caribbean đ
well, some of the media are calling him “West Indian” so the Indians wanting to stop racists with their magical ‘I’m Indian” mantras will have to make sure to call themselves “east indian” now.
tef, plus the obvious part about India and Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, The Maldives, and Bhutan being in Asia. đ
I find there is a common cultural strand between second generation Chinese, Vietnamese, Koreans and second generation desis.
hm. my korean american friends thought thais were too dark-skinned and smelled bad. i won’t imagine what they thought of browns đ
Abhi, re #104. Thanks. That was very succinct and I thoroughly appreciate it.
2-G. Word.
Wow I am so flattered to see people still discussing my post some 15 hours later. That’s wonderful. And I am surprised to see the same names.Dont you people ever sleep?
But I guess my view is not foreign to the British Born Muslims who attacked London last week…hmmm…
Abhi, Al Mujahid, etc etc. I guess calling me “stupid” makes you guys the biggest hypocrites out there. Because “intelligent” people like you should reread posts before making assumptions. Calm down Al Mujahid, I know its been a tough 15 hours but as I said in my original post, I am ABCD!!!! I was born in the United States, lived here for most of my life and went to India for a couple of years and lived there. Rougly 4 years of my life…but those 4 years changed my perspective on many things..Somethings most ABCD’s will not understand..similiar to how some Newer Immigrants (I prefer this word to FOB) will never understand about growing up here. So the argument that I am a “FOB” and that I haven’t assimiliated goes out the window. I am not going to conform to ABCD idea just because its popular amongst us. I feel enligtened by my time in India. Indian Muslims should not be offended by my remarks, I just said there should be some assessment into their extremist groups..and while that happens, I am going to remove myself from the “South Asian” label.
Juve, I dont think South Indians are less willing to accept the South Asian moniker (inclusive of Pakistanis/Bangladeshis).Actually my husband is from the South, born and raised around the world..and his godmother happens to be Muslim. The Southern states of India, maybe with the exception of Hyderabad, arent filled with the Hindu-Muslim tension the North has. Maybe geography has something to do with it. Southern states are more plagued with caste related issues unfortunately. Most Brahmin men in my in-law’s small town in Tamilnadu, are discouraged from sporting a moustache..a sign of masculinity and of Thevar caste.
Exactly..thank you JM. I was trying to look up the Pakistani reaction during the Dotbuster days, unfortunately not much has been written about it.
—Saurav and Ennis..thank you both for your constructive criticism which is healthy instead of abusing me to the core..Saurav…why is not wanting to feel “unpleasant” considered sad? No,I dont want to have to deal with anything, no I dont want to be inconvenienced and any extreme (from being attacked and viciously killed to slight incovenienced)…all are degrees of botherations to me. And as I said, whatever helps me in those moments, I will do and say. However silly it make look to you. I WILL stand up for myself, however I am not going to stand up for people whose only connection to me is that they happen to share my skin color.
Ennis..you are a better human being than I am. Your principles are honorable and I admire that. You are Sikh, go to any LOC across India and its full of courageous Sikhs fighting to protect India. I was at a spiritual camp in Bangalore India on 9-11. With me were a group of 20 Sikh families from all across India. When we all heard there was an immediate backlash against Sikh Americans…many were saddened, disgusted and outraged. Most of those Uncles were involved in the Indo-Pak wars of 60-70s. They couldnt understand why Sikh Americans werent trying to explain Sikhism to Americans. They didnt understand or better they couldnt comprehend why we werent making a bigger effort to distance ourselves and protect ourselves. But I really do appreciate what you have done for the diaspora since 9-11, people like you made our lives easier. I think the reason most Indians/New Immigrants and Myself (the lone ABCD) dont want to be labelled as South Asian is because we have seen first hand the tragedies the religious extremists (All religions) have done to India. Its easy to talk about unity here in the USA, but when in India, it gets much more complicated.
Saved the best for last:
Al Mujahid: “Oh please Uncleji, discuss this with me adult to adult..I am ready for that..Since you are the adult here and I am the child, shall we display some more pics of Sholay to confirm how mature you really are? How adult of you dear wise one, really.
Sorry it’s so long, just wanted to clear things up. Thanks for the rants and raves..its been an exciting day all around.
razib,
So your friends look down on the dark skinned ones, eh? Bingo, that is what I mean when I say we got a common cultural strand! : )
And we are all a little bit ‘insular’ and we buy those big rice bags and…
Bingo, that is what I mean when I say we got a common cultural strand! : )
touche!
Sonal, I’m not flaming you, I’m not being sarcastic or mean in the least. With all respect that I can offer you, I have a legitimate question I’d like to hear your thoughts on:
If you dislike the term South Asian, I find it curious that in your last post you refer to yourself multiple times as “ABCD”. Is this more acceptable verbiage to you? If so, why?
Second Generation Pakistani Americans are also ABCD so I suggest that Sonal should stop referring to herself as ABCD especially as it might confuse the abusers.
This whole South Asian / Indian debate is a good one and will only get more intense as both 1st & 2nd generation Indian population gets more sizeable, and India makes a stronger impact globally.
I would like to disclose that I am an Indian citizen living here in the US, and have previously lived in other parts of the globe. Also, I do have and have had numerous friends from other South Asian countries. I am also more for the LOVE then the HATE, and am glad that the South Asian Diaspora is able to bond well together in most societies.
But just as an American is not equal to a Canadian (for the millions of differences that exist), Indian is not equal to Pakistani. You have got to understand that just as you would salute a soldier whoĂâs served your country, we Indians do the same. And for that reason, the little we do is fight for Ăâan Indian view pointĂâ.
So while I did party last weekend at Hiro with my South Asian friends, I identify myself as an Indian, for thatĂâs the least I can do. ItĂâs not a trivial matter that 1000s have died during the Kargil war or are currently freezing in Siachen! So do understand us here.
I am all for PEACE and prosperity within the entire South Asia, but India is a separate country with a separate system with a separate set of problems, and for that reason needs to be identified separately Ăâ it has earned it, and it deserves it.
So while a lot of you here are 2nd generation South Asian, as you so choose to call yourselves, equating India to South Asia creates a problem for us Indians. It affects the views of US political system and general public on our country, which in turn has other consequences, including economic and social. We do not want , or deserve the Quid Pro Quo status.
Yes, we want to be distinguished because we cannot control what happens beyond our borders. But I am in no way saying that we cannot and should not be friends.
Desidancer, No its cool, I appreciate you asking me. Well I mentioned that I am American desi, in my original post at 2:30 am. Unfortunately people didnt read that and assumed that I was a new immigrant simply based on my views. I used ABCD often in my latest post, just to show these guys that they shouldnt make blanket statements and speak for all American Desis “I guess we ABCDs are disgusted by Sonal even though shes here now”…when I am an American desi myself. Also ABCD is somewhat inflammatory and I do acknowledge the big difference between American desi and ABCD, We have both ABCDs and American desis here, but ABCD shows more prominently on screen.. Thats the only reason I used it there. If I say I am “Indian American”, people will again assume I am 1st generation..which is not true but was the crux of many of their arguments against me.
Abhi:
“Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”
There is no quibble on my part about you feeling kinship with 2nd gen Sri Lankan, Chinese and Filipino Americans. I see no problems with that part of your statement at all. But history has shown us that radical Islamic theology has always exerted a strong, if only occasional, influence on pretty much every significant population of Muslims. There will be a group of radicals who will claim that “pure” Islam requires them to do horrible things to dar-al-Harb. And a small, but dangerous sub-population of those Muslims will follow those and act upon those exhortations. Learn from history and you’ll know why we are so wary of such “bhai-bhai” sentiments. You may find this “disgusting”, but it is the truth.
Your disgust would be better used if directed against radical Islamic theology and in persuading your Muslim friends to share in that disgust.
True. But you might also agree that if an American and a Canadian were neighbors, living in…Morocco, they might get along as if they were countrymen, simply because there were few others around that resembled them, whether in looks, social practice, customs, foods, love for Bryan Adams…whatever…
DesiDancer,
Well how about if we subtract Canada and then add Mexico to the pot. Calling both Mexicans and U.S. citizens North Americans might make geogrpahic sense, but then you fail to recognize/acknowledge/respect the difference between the two.
I mean there are Italian-Americans and Irish-Americans I don’t believe European-American resonates in the same way. Heck they even have the Scotch-Irish Americans : )
So while a lot of you here are 2nd generation South Asian, as you so choose to call yourselves, equating India to South Asia creates a problem for us Indians. It affects the views of US political system and general public on our country, which in turn has other consequences, including economic and social. We do not want , or deserve the Quid Pro Quo status.
these various identities are still congealing. you should withhold judgements about what the implications are until we know how they flesh themselves out. i will be honest and assert that i am skeptical of the long term durability of a desi identity in this nation, though i think a muslim identity is possible, unless hinduism reinvents itself into a denominational religion in the protestant mold (as islam to some extent seems to be doing).
But history has shown us that radical Islamic theology has always exerted a strong, if only occasional, influence on pretty much every significant population of Muslims.
i think your contemporary concern is correct, but i usually have disagreed with your depiction of the past. i think this is relevant because beyond the short-term it effects how we view the future.
Desi Dancer – True they will get along, just like we get along here. But an American is an American, just like their neighbors are Canadians. There is no such thing as a North American, or will be, even if you take Mexico out of the picture.
Desidancer I agree, if Americans and Canadians were living in Morocco, they would band together in all the ways and norms you mentioned. But Americans and Canadians were never at War, millions on either sides did not die, suspicions of one country sending their terrorist groups over to the other country did not occur. There was no parlimentary building blown up. There were no hijackings; (Indian Airlines 1999 linked to Pakistani sponsored terrorists). Even trivial social things like, certain religious groups of Americas cheering for Canada when Canada was winning in cricket did not occur (something I noticed alot when in India), The terrorist who was suspected of the Bombay blasts wasnt hiding in a prominent easily located city (giving interviews) in the neighbouring country. Etc etc….If this was the case, would Americans and Canadians still be so close?
JM,
I find it curious you mention the term bhai-bhai sentiment and in the same post find it ok to be friends with chinese-americans — I believe you know where I am going with this… : )
Anyway, just because India and Pakistan have fought wars and might fight again, it makes no sense for one American Sec-Gen to bear ill will toward another American Sec-Gen.
Sonal- good point, I see that.
If Indian Americans become as high profile as British Indians, and Pakistani American dont do as well, the ‘South Asian’ title will go away and situation will more resemble England where Paki has become a racial slur.
to MD: YES ‘craker whitey’ in my book is a RACIAL SLUR. But until 3 years ago I thought that ‘cracker’ only meant a food item.
let me interject, as a “bangladeshi american” (in some ways i find it a curious term since the birth of that ‘nation’ precedes my own by only a few years)….
1) i can see why indians, pakistanis, and to a lesser extent FOBs would be keen on making distinctions.
2) communal violence is a reality in india.
3) there have been wars.
4) there was partition.
etc. etc.
the important point is what day to day relevance does this have for browns in the USA? do we really care about partition, the various wars, and so forth? are the sins of the fathers passed on inevitably to the descendents? i’ve argued in different arguments that this is often taken too far, that american browns preoccupy too much with brown affairs rather than american affairs (though i also want to argue people should actually read a lot of history before passing on the bulls**t they learn from their parents!) and i would argue the same here. the important point is there is a concern over islamism in the west, and browns are a sizable, though not dominant, subset, and this should be a concern for everyone. in india the distinction between muslim and hindu is very salient, and communal riots mean you had better know which side you are on. here in the USA there isn’t, to my knowledge, intercommunal riots between brown groups. the dominant group is christian, and they assert their dominance by putting up 10 commandment tablets while jews, muslims and other groups march, and file lawsuits. most of the brown-on-brown violence inflicted by islamists is a side effect of carnage wrecked on all our co-citizens. a secondary concern is that the fact that like it or not there is going to be a lot of ‘false positive’ mis-identification on the part of the haters. that’s part of life too, and obviously not an issue in india where the hindu-muslim divide is a given that works as a background assumption.
as i said above, browns in the old country have their own interests, and we browns here in the healthy and wealthy west shouldn’t tell them what to do. but by the same token, i do not think we are just “non-resident indians,” (or bangladeshis or pakistanis), we are a whole spectrum and range of people who are choosing and shaping our places in american culture. i often disagree with a lot of people here, but i gotta say, perhaps it is time that americo-browns issue a declaration of no foreign entanglements in our/your cultural development. we ain’t colonials no more….
tef: That was indeed on my mind when I wrote it.
East Asians in general have not had animosity towards India, especially because it was known as the land of Buddha’s origin. They used to send budding scholars to India to learn Buddhism from Nalanda and similar institutions, just as we desis have flocked to US universities in this age, though on a smaller scale. My point is that the 1962 war was not an expression of Chinese racial or religious ill will towards Indians. Even if many of the fairer Chinese may look down on darker Indians, there is no long history of war and conflict. It was more a Mao thing and Nehru’s ineptness in foreign policy.
As for your second statement, it would be instructive to figure out why exactly there was animosity and ill will between Pakistan and India. The reason is clear – (radical) Islam does not like idol worshippers and polytheists. If the 2nd gen American does not disavow this theology lock, stock and barrel, and the population he belongs to does not discourage this theology in any meaningful way beyond platitudes, then there is every reason to believe that history will be repeated. So while you will have individuals who are golden, the overall population should be suspect. I fully encourage you to do what you can to protect individual Muslim friends if you believe they are in danger. I don’t have a problem with individual friendships, but this “bhai-bhai” stuff with the entire Muslim population is not warranted. Trust of that sort should be earned and, in my opinion, it has not been so far.
Okay…my question to all fellow SMers,
How many Muslims(Indian or non-Indian) felt guilty about the Hindu cast-system or felt a need to explain to the western media or their non-desi friends about what cast-system is and the whys and hows of the problem….. THEY DID NOT….coz they had no need to……coz it was a phenomenon unique to the Hindu society/culture.
Similarly,
The current wave of terrorism in the name of Islam is unique to Muslim society and needs to be adderessed by them…….I certainly do not want to have anything to do with it & do not need to be defensive about it……so yes,the Hindus and the Sikhs could do well to explain their differences from the Muslims than shout out some imaginary pan South-Asian identity…..I would do all that I can prevent fellow Muslims from being the target of racist violence BUT I would also do all that I can to tell the ignorant that I am not Muslim……the westerners might have a million prejudices aganist brown people in general or Hindus/Sikhs in particular and I will face them as I get along but I absolutely refuse to be drawn into a battle that is not mine…..
Its good to have a sense of unity and all but its even better to accept and acknowledge our differences and carry on from there…..for all our pretence about a pan South-Asian identity,the 1947 partition DID happen,dint it?
I think its ironic that almost all the times that hate-crimes have been committed against the Sikhs in US,they have always been during times of anti-Muslim undercurrent in the American society(the 1979 Iran fiasco,the Gulf war,post9/11,and now post-London)….I am sorry but the poor Sikhs must be getting tired of being mistaken and targeted for someone they are not….a moderate sensible Muslim should fight his war by engaging the extremists amongst them and by explaining to the western media how and why acts of terrorism are un-Islamic………and the Sikhs/Hindus should fight their war by telling the public that they are NOT muslims…..I dont think there is any need to muddle a fact as simple as that…..
Sonal said:
Sonal, actually that did happen. The US destroyed the Canadian Parliament building, they destroyed the White House.
In 1812, the US and the UK went to war; much of this war was fought in Canada and the soldiers fighting for the British were Canadian. Canadians talk about how they were invaded by the US.
More generally, the problem with your statement is that it conflates the Pakistani government with the Pakistani people. Many of us in the US have friends whose parents came from Pakistan. That doesn’t mean that we (or they) have to support the Pakistani government’s policies any more than they (or we) have to support those of the Indian government.
People /= Government Being South Asian is about culture, not about endorsing the position of any particular government.
Razib:
My old homeland has been and continues to be ravaged by Islamic separatism. I don’t want my new homeland (the US) to be similarly ravaged. I am making this argument not as a Hindu, but rather as a prospective American. Should I forget history and turn a blind eye to radical Islam growing here? Is it out-of-bounds to ask the brown US Muslim population to demonstrably jettison the dar-al-Harb stuff and Islamic separatism?
Correct. And as Americans, shouldn’t the brown-on-non-brown violence also concern us?
The war of 1812 isn’t much more than historical trivia to most north americans, it really can’t be compared on the much more recent and ongoing tensions between pakistan and india
but i agree that the distinction between people/government is important, although im not sure exactly what support for offending govt actions are like in pakistan or india
My previous comment should not be taken as if I WISH that situation similar to England should occur in the US. (Besides it occurs ONLY if there is a marked achievment gap between the communities. It is less likely to happen here as more professionals from all the countries of sub-continent prefer US over UK) I am just pointing out that the same two groups living in the UK dont use the title ‘South Asian’.. why?
I’m a Canadian, and of PK descent. In my view, the differences between my country and yours, and my parents country and your parents country is not exactly the same, but it of the same order and the same magnitude. It’s small.
And when I am abroad, in France, the UK or elsewhere, I do identify with and seek out Americans — we have a common culture and a common outlook on life. The same went for my parents, back in the 70s when they arrived and today — they watched the same movies, ate the same food and (usually) spoke the same language as Indians in North America.
But as Razib said, the commonalities between India and PK are irrelevant. Back when I lived in the South, folks didn’t take the time to determine if the “wetback” was of Mexican or Guatamalan descent. That’s why the US has a Latino (or Hispanic) identity, despite the vast differences between Mexico, Cuba, etc.
And for the same reasons, distinguishing between browns on the basis of their parent’s national origin is stupid. Beyond IN and PK, what about Trinidad and Fiji? Does VS Naipaul or Neil Bissoondath have no cultural commonalities with Rohinton Mistry or Salman Rushdie? Where does Vijay Singh fit in?
Rather than national origin, look at cultural practices here, in your own country. If you watch bollywood movies, eat food that stinks up the house, have interfering parents who think choosing your spouse is their right, understand what “wheatish” means, and know that your family’s greatest shame is that you are not a doctor, join the club.
Razib –
The sepcific reasons you have cited may not all have any relevance, but the way I am looked / perceived at is proportionally tied to the image / perception of my country.
I dont know if you are going to be a beneficiary of this perception, but many will.Do you know how many Indians (not US citizens) there are here in the US? Of these a significant portion become citizens. Do you know how many people back in India depend on this perception for their livelihood? Do you know how many Indians will end up visitng the US in one form or fashion? The way i look at it – You do well here, your country of origin looks good. Your country of origin does well, you do good here ! Its a global flat world !
I meant You do well here, your country of origin looks good. Your country of origin does well, you look good here
Ikram: Your (as well as others’) summary list of ‘desi culture’ in North America is a rather thin one which I, a Kashmiri Pandit brought up in the US, do not think amounts to a sound rationale for a ‘South Asian’ identity. I suppose it would be possible to construct a reductio ad absurdum of your rationale for a ‘South Asian’ identity by suggesting that, say, Italian-Americans (or Greek-Americans, Jewish-Americans) or some other ‘non-South Asian’ group share many of the characteristics you list as ‘South Asian’.
But I am not interested in pursuing that sort of critique. Rather, I would like to underline that such ‘folk’ taxonomies are not purely objective, but necessarily involve a normative element. Among other reasons, a normative element is introduced into such taxonomies based on the choice of characteristics used to construct a taxonomy. Perhaps the most obvious example in your list is, say, the conspicuous absence of love of a particular South Asian language(s) or, say, a deep interest in a particular South Asian religion.
But this is not to suggest that you, and other 1.5/2nd generation ‘desis’ of similar dispostion, are irrational in embracing a ‘South Asian’ identity. It’s simply to say that there are other 1.5/2nd generation people, among whom I count myself, who may not think of ourselves as ‘South Asians’. Or, perhaps, agreeing that they’re ‘South Asian’ but not ‘South Asian’ simpliciter. I see no rational way to arbitrate between such freely chosen self-identity. None, I think, are ‘natural’ in that sense.
All of this is not to say that bigotry against anyone in America should be tolerated. Yes, we must make common cause with those who may be under attack. But this need not necessarily be as fellow ‘browns’ or fellow ‘South Asians’. I should think that citing the rights granted all people in American jurisprudence ought to suffice.
Kumar
I don’t think recent versus distant history gives one incident more or less merit than another, nor does it disparage the efforts, losses, or consequences. Ennis had a very fascinating and relevant post.
Sonal et al.,
I think it is not as important to distance yourself from a “group that is taking heat” as it is stand up against backlash no matter what group is targetted. Because you never know how circumstances might change:
Today we can work hard to distance ourselves from people of pakistani origin, tommorrow if we find out an that indian muslim in involved in terror plot, should we work towards distancing ourselves from indian muslims, and highligthing our indian hindu identity, and after a Hindutva pogram in an north Indian state, should we will distance ourselves because we are south indian hindus, then as a tamil south india hindu, and then an iyer south indian hindu from a city … we can go on ad infinitum.
And solidarity is far more important because cirsumstances can change very easily: all it takes is a bunch american tourists kidnapped and beheaded in India by muslim terrorists, and I am sure now you have to make the next jump in the identity ladder, by perhaps distancing yourself from the Indian Muslims.
In the long run, I think distancing yourself has very little practical effect (like decrease in amount of hate crimes towards a group) than if the same effort is put into decreasing backlash on any minority. Any body knows any eveidence to support/disprove this hypothesis?
Regardless, Martin Niemoller’s 1945 poem about Nazi persecution is very apt here:
First they came for the Communists, and I didnĂât speak up, because I wasnĂât a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didnĂât speak up, because I wasnĂât a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didnĂât speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me.
Hence, it think it is prudent and effective to stand in solidarity with muslims and to work with them even though your not a muslim.
If you are British, the first thing that should matter to you is that the bombers sre british citizens, and hence it is your problem not if because you are brown, but atleast because you are British.
Alienating a group in your country using us/them and wishing away destruction is less productive than assuming all responsibility and working towards reducing the radicalism regardless of if you are a muslim or not, brown or not – because ultimately, claiming that you have nothing to do with ‘them’ will not make you and your children less vulnerable to the next bomb.
In the larger context, it’s petty to squabble about how you want to be called by other people.