Earlier, somebody asked if the incidence of hate crimes in the UK was worse now than in the past. The short answer is yes, immensely so:
In the three days after the bombing, police in London recorded 180 racial incidents. A total of 58 faith-related crimes were recorded, compared with one in the same period last year.Attacks have also been reported on mosques in Tower Hamlets and Merton, both in London, Telford, Leeds, Bristol, Birkenhead and Gloucester, and on a Sikh temple in Kent. [Guardian]
Today’s BBC Worldservice radio broadcast indicated that there have been additional reports of backlash related violence, but gave no further details. Before some of you start frothing at the mouth and comparing this to the violence of the bombings, there is no comparison. I was livid when the bombings occurred. Since then, it has only become more personal – my cousin was one of those lucky enough to dodge the bullet, passing through only 10 minutes before the bombs went off. There is no reason to mix the two issues though. The bombing does not justify anti-brown violence afterwards.
as i pray for the affected, i’ll thank the lord your cousin was spared. your cousins are a very cool group of people, even if they leave me flustered as a tour guide. 😉
The bombing does not justify anti-brown violence afterwards.
isn’t that a strawman? the tards will always use anything as an excuse to beat the crap out of people. the people who go and beat the crap out of people are’t reading weblogs, reading the paper or listening to tony blair’s press conference. the best thing to do isn’t to urge for calm, just pick up a bat (or a cricket stick) if you are that scared get ready to fend off some snaggle-toothed freak and his buddies.
p.s. my cousins are much more likely to get beat up by the sylhettis who target non-sylhetti bangladeshi origin people on a regular basis for intimidation than the snaggle-toothed freaks.
A Sri Lankan friend of mine went to a pub in San Jose to watch the England/Australia cricket match earlier this week and he had to leave because he was receiving so many verbal threats from other patrons in the pub. This is all really unfortunate, but it’s almost inevitable these days.
Razib, easy for us to say. But what happens when 5 snaggle toothed freaks jump a lone 55 year old man? That’s an example from just a year ago in NYC …
For real? I’ve had some syllhetis angry at me for not being able to communicate effectively with them, but nothing like what you’re relating. It’s always amazing how different things in Londontown 🙂
I wanted to post something in the other thread but could not as it was closed. I hope the mod wont mind if I post it here, the content is similiar to this thread..
Ennis…I feel bad for your Sri Lankan friend. He has experienced racism because of the actions of extremists. While innocent muslims never deserve any sort of backlash..I am sure your innocent friend was not a muslim. Sri Lankans are mainly Hindus and Buddhists from what I remember.So your friend, whose ancestors are from another whole country had a bad experience because of some extremists who are from an entire whole country…thousands of miles away. And light years away in religious ideologies.
I am American desi, but unlike some of you I spent alot of time in India. I have seen what Indians go through in terms of terrorism. I remember watching sadly as the Indian Airline hijacking was taking place in 1999. I remember the widow who lost her husband, the only man who was killed..mainly because of his big build. I think its time people of the Hindu, Sikh and Christian faiths disconnect our “South Asian” tie with Muslims. Now before all you “Foo-Foo diwali celebrating, bhangra dancing, “South Asian” ABCD students” shout at me, here me out please. I understand why most ABCD have this “we need to stick together” mentality. We all grew up together in this country and are bunched together in race. But actually we are a world apart religiously. And post 9/11 its time we made smaller steps towards pointing out our differences. For my future children’s sake and for my family sake…People of the Muslim faith (especially moderates) need to reasses and deal with the issues that plague some members of their extremist society.
We as Indian Hindus/Sikhs/Christians living abroad need to do what is PRACTICAL for us. For our own sanity and safety.The West is not going to know the difference between “brown” people. But I think that needs to change. I for one am going to do my small part in teaching them the difference. My ancestors are from Gandhi country, yes Gandhiji had faults but he certainly was NOT violent. Who suffers when this “confusion of the browns” takes place? This misdirected retaliation? We do… Well of course the innocent muslims suffer as well, which is sad but in a way,andsomething they must deal with. But why on earth should I suffer?? My religious beliefs are so different from Muslims. I hardly know a thing about Islam..but why am I having to defend myself and my male family members on a daily basis for the actions of some OTHER religious extremist group??? So instead I will just explain it to people. If I experience any sort of racism I will say I am A HINDU..not South Asian. I am not South Asian. If my husband is about to be beaten up by a gang of bigots, I will scream out that I have nothing to do with Islam…come on…consider the flip side, you think if it was Hindu extremists committing these atrocities all over the world and Muslims experienced backlash, you think a Muslim girl would sit and defend Hinduism and proclaim her “South Asianness” if her husband was getting beat up? I doubt it..I am sorry, we need to be practical so that future generations dont have to deal with the crap we are going through. IF that means I am less “PC” well then so be it.
Sorry I just got home from work, most of you write so well, my doc brain doesnt function too well at this hour..lol..
and last month. btw, i’m not saying that race is the only factor in beatings and murders–just that it happens and it doesn’t serve anyone well to deny that it does. esp because a lot–housing discrimination, employment discrimination, “ordinary” slurs, etc. are happening under the surface that we won’t hear about because it’s not newsworthy.
Sonal, You stated Sorry I just got home from work, most of you write so well, my doc brain doesnt function too well at this hour..lol..
I agree. You should have gone to sleep instead of writing this post.
Sonal, You stated Sorry I just got home from work, most of you write so well, my doc brain doesnt function too well at this hour..lol..
I agree. You should have gone to sleep instead of writing this post.
I am not South Asian. If my husband is about to be beaten up by a gang of bigots, I will scream out that I have nothing to do with Islam If you had gone to sleep, this brilliant strategy of yours would have never been made public. Between good luck when they are beating up your husband where you shout out that you are not South Asian. I am sure the attackers will stop the attack and ask you for Yoga tips.
Razib, easy for us to say. But what happens when 5 snaggle toothed freaks jump a lone 55 year old man? That’s an example from just a year ago in NYC …
that’s a tragedy. i’m just saying that let’s not allow us to put these tragedies in the service of stereotypes. yes, stereotypes that white people are always simmering with pent up hatred ready to be unleashed when there is a bombing perpetrated by brown people. just look at the numbers, who is a new york cabbie more afraid of because of stereotypes (true or not, i’m not going to get into that), young black men or young white men?
look, some of you live in urban areas, and some of you live in rural areas, some of you live in the USA, some of you live outside of it. i’m speaking to americans here, and those of you who live in ‘diverse’ urban areas (diverse because places like NYC are rather sparse on white protestant evangelicals and political conservatives from what i can see and know). i’ve had stalkers target me,* so i’m not going to post my picture here, but i’m recognizably brown. i lived in eastern oregon for 5 years, 99% white, 75% republican, and did experience some racism. but on the grand scale of things, even if people are a bit ignorant (many cowboys talked to me in spanish, assuming i was latino), they were pretty decent. from talking to those of you who lived in urban areas i get the impression that you also have your experiences with intimidation, but often it was from other minorities. are you going to let those few experiences dictate your perception of people?
anyway, i know this is a brown blog. but i really don’t get this fear about a backlash on the level of the populace. sure, i’m libertarian enough to not trust big brother, that i can relate to. but ordinary americans, of all races, are very decent, and frankly far more decent about communal relations than in most of the world. on the grand scale of things the danger is more symbolic on a person-to-person level, and i think an examination of the numbers would dispel that.
saurav, my cousins are public school boys. class might be an issue. but when my brother visited them they did have to be careful of other bangladeshis because the sylheti trouble-makers apparently take special pleasure in targeting people from “bengal.” (sylhetis sometimes have a conceit that they are not bengali since they are from assam-this was an issue when my dad taught in syhlet back in the 1970s, though their jackfruits rock)
and yes, i will add the caveat that perhaps my good-looks inoculated me from bigotry.
Well Sonal, good luck educating your husband’s hypothetical attackers about the difference between us and them while he’s being attacked. I truly hope they stop and embrace you. I hope you can discuss the finer points of Hinduism with them over chai and samosas.
It’s xenophobia and racism we’re dealing with, and I hate to break it to you but the folks who retaliate are simply not concerned about whether you’re actually Muslim or not. They get to teach all the people they feel are invading “their” country by attacking us. You can go ahead and ingratiate yourself with white Americans. Please excuse me for not wanting to go along with that–it’s not practical.
Sonal, this really cuts to the heart of the matter, so thanks for putting it out there. There are in situations that I don’t know how I would react in. But when I’m not in those situations, I have to try. Otherwise, what’s the point of it all?
p.s. my cousins are much more likely to get beat up by the sylhettis who target non-sylhetti bangladeshi origin people on a regular basis for intimidation than the snaggle-toothed freaks.
Razib, Can you or someone else here elaborate on the profile of the Sylhetti population in UK. As I understand the Sylhettis are also very tribal, conservative and religious like the Mirpuri Pakistanis in UK and have not been able to assimilate. A lot of people actually attribute the lower achievement levels of the Pakistanis and the Bangladeshis to the large number of Mirpuris and Sylhettis in UK. I am yet to see numbers on the various economic, social or academic indicators of the Non Mirpuri Pakistani population and Non Sylhetti Bangladeshi population. I have been told that the stats then would be comparable to the stats of Indians.
Al Mujahid,
I am not surprised you dont find value in my post. But its my choice to seperate myself from the “South Asian” umbrella that causes me much discomfort and irritation and pain.
Yea, shouting that I have nothing to do with Islam might not work, but at least I get my point across. With Ganesh prayers on my lips, at least I would have given it a try. Most backlash incidents I have experienced were not violent thankfully, it was more a sneer or a comment, and these would definetly cease if I explained who and what I am. Sorry you dont agree with it. But I think Muslims have more pressing things to think about than worrying about some Hindu girl who seperates herself from them.
My take on this backlash issue is not popular I know that. You have plenty of psuedo- Hindu/Sikh “South Asian” ABCD friends that will never ever leave your side. Dont worry your pretty little head.
In reference to lack of sleep, it was mainly an apology because I lack the eloquent writing style so many of you possess. Had this been during the day, I would write the same thing I wrote just now, but probably with less grammatical errors. Lucky you dont seem to have that problem..
I think its time people of the Hindu, Sikh and Christian faiths disconnect our “South Asian” tie with Muslims
What do you suggest the Indian Muslims do ?
You do have a brilliant solution to the problem of hate crimes. Just say NO I AM NOT MUSLIM. I guess the Muslims could also just start shouting out about not being Muslim and save themselves when a hate crime is being committed on them.
One extra point:
My uncle was visiting the small town of Jefferson City in Missouri a few days after 9-11. A gang of White men approached him threateningly and rougly asked him “What his people’s problem was and why they attacked America..?”…my uncle calmly explained that “He was not a member of that faith, he was a Hindu, his cousin died on 9-11, and that he sympathizes with their anger and frustration because his people have dealt with it for centuries”….it worked..He made his point, they didnt beat him up, they left him alone after chatting with him for a few minutes, yea he alienated his “South Asian” identity maybe, but he surely saved his life. I say more power to him…
Can you or someone else here elaborate on the profile of the Sylhetti population in UK.
i have no idea, but my impression is that the majority of “bangladeshis” in the UK are from the syhlet region because of founder effect. i know in the USA that in places like detroit bengali medium schools are actually run by syhletis, who tend to not have anything to do with the other bangladeshis (one of my dad’s best friends is an engineer in detroit who made the mistake of assuming that he would find kindred souls among detroit’s sylhetis, and recounted to my father that it was like returning to bangladesh the people seemed so insular to him).
But its my choice to seperate myself from the “South Asian” umbrella that causes me much discomfort and irritation and pain.
May I suggest ‘Khoon Safa’ from Hamdard, an Indian albeit Moozlem company. Its an excellent ‘Indian’ made cure for irritation and similar problems.
Most backlash incidents I have experienced were not violent thankfully, it was more a sneer or a comment, and these would definetly cease if I explained who and what I am.
Of course they will. In fact they will apologize to you (hopefully not in an Apu accent)
My take on this backlash issue is not popular I know that. You have plenty of psuedo- Hindu/Sikh “South Asian” ABCD friends that will never ever leave your side. Dont worry your pretty little head.
I dont practice Islam either, so my chance of success is comparable to yours. I am just not that optimistic.
re: numbers, this says, “there are about 500,000 Sylheti people living in the UK.” about 0.5 UKers are bangladeshi according to the las UK census, ergo, 500 K out of 300 K??? well, the numbers might be off, but it gives you a sense of the dominance of the syhletis….
Sonal, I saw your uncle here Is he the one on the right ?
Al Mujahid,
I dont get the joke? Sarcasm is an ABCD trait that I never picked up (un)fortunately. Sholay? I guess he wouldnt be considered a Hero and certainly not a villian…he didnt fight them, he just said whatever he had to, to avoid being beat up. And it worked… I guess desperate times call for desperate and “practical” measures. And if I was in that situation I would do the same.
Thankfully today my uncle Maruti is alive and well and his wife and kids narrowly avoided a devastation in their lives. Ali Mujahid, as I said my take is not popular, and your critique is welcomed, but I would ask that you refrain from making fun of my family members/elders.. it’s so non-“South Asian” besides being childish…and more like something Bam from MTV Viva La Bam would do (throw eggs on elders, laugh at their actions blah blah)…Resorting to sarcasm because there’s nothing left to say on your part, is kinda low..
So if you want to continue in that way,I humble will take my Hindu non “South Asian” azz out of this pointless argument. Good day..
Hey Pico,
you were being sarcastic, right? because, if not, you lost me at “hello.” it makes me angry that you would wish that on another person that you’re talking to and it leaves me dumbfounded that you think a country where a whole class of people are cowering in fear could possibly be safe–physically, emotionally, and psychologically.
hm. please don’t feed the sonal-monster anymore. i’m not one who thinks islamophobia is a great sin, i hate religion in general, and islam in particular. hate the sin, not the sinner, but stupidity is the greatest sin of all.
Razib,
I am not “islamaphobic”, if you read my post properly you would have seen that I said no Innocent people including Muslims deserve backlash. Go back and read it before you call me a monster. Thats just rude and people who cant read are certainly more stupid than me.
I guess my absent phobia is worst than your friend Ali Mujahid insulting an elder. Gawd, that’s so non South Asian of you. Didnt your parents teach you guys to respect elders and not make fun of them?
You said you hate islam in particular..you are the hater not me..
I dont support Picos views. I would never want anyone to experience any pain. So stop comparing us. My views are all mine.
I guess my absent phobia is worst than your friend Ali Mujahid insulting an elder. Gawd, that’s so non South Asian of you. Didnt your parents teach you guys to respect elders and not make fun of them?
i have little sympathy for most distinctive south asian values aside from preference for spicey food (you know, outside the common human universal set). i’m an observer here…and often gather information for my girlfriend since she wants to know what being brown is all about and i feel like an idiot not knowing what to say. and look, you might have coherent ideas, but you presented it in a rather predigested rant.
sorry, stupid is as stupid does. i speak to the style more than the substance of your argument. i don’t know if it is strategic for non-muslim browns to disassociate, i think that depends on various locales and what not, but i don’t think you are doing your argument any service by smearing it in a stream-of-consciousness fashion.
and thanks for calling me an islamophobe, i’ll take it as a compliment. i’ve got some karma to payback since i have so many hanafi imam forebears.
People are beating up on Sonal but it is important to remember that the biggest single group that has fractured the South Asian identity in the diaspora has been the Pakistani community, and even some Indian Muslims and Bangladeshis. Put simply, when they form and perpetuate the pan-Islamic identity they do not want to be associated with Hindus and Sikhs. This is not just a few people, it is an entire movement and a conscious decision by Muslim Desis in the UK to reject Hindus and Sikhs and it has been going on for a long long time.
Whilst Sonal’s point may be crude, it is the Desi Muslims, especially in Britain, who have been at the forefront of distancing themselves from the Kaffir Hindus and Sikhs. They have consciously formed a political identity that excludes and rejects Indians.
The message it has given to Hindus and Sikhs has been: We are Muslims first, we do not want to be associated with you, the Arabs are our brothers, we reject you, because you are infidel, our interests and future is separate.
It may be expressed more subtly than that, but that is how it feels, and if the feelings come to be reciprocated within the diaspora by Indians who say ‘Alright then, See ya!’, it is understandable.
Lets remember this; the distancing was initiated by Muslim organisations quite a while back, and the feelings of rejection that this engenders amongst some Indians, is understandable in this context.
Razib and Mujahid if you think about it you will know it is true.
Razib and Mujahid if you think about it you will know it is true.
looks like i need to go back to my own handle. even though i labelled myself an islamophobe that doesn’t seem to help (see why have sympathy for white people? they aren’t the only ones who can’t move beyond stereotypes-in fact, my experience is that white people tend to move past my muslim name quicker because they can’t tell that big of a difference between ‘razib’ and ‘rajendra’).
anyway, you speak orthogonally to what people are criticizing about sonal’s argument. of course muslims are often rather bigoted, exclusionary and contemptuous of uncircumcised ones. but are you really going to get any payout out of an educational program to education people are the “good browns” vs. “bad browns”??? my experience is that most white people who know browns know the difference, and those who don’t know browns aren’t ever going to figure out the difference.
i mean, look at me, i’m an atheist with a “muslim” name who has been assumed to be hindu most of my life. now, i could drop my drawers and show people that my cut penis indicates i’m not a hindu, but here in the USA most guys are cut, so this isn’t special and they might not see the relevance.
where my parents live in seattle most of the anti-muslim prejudice has been aimed at sikhs. my parents, who dress in a western fashion, haven’t experienced any of this. you might want to go educate the thugs on refining their tracking methods so that false positives don’t occur as often, but i doubt you’ll get anything out of it 😉
of course, i still it might be best for brown americans to fracture in their identity. but i have argued for that in other fora for generally personal reasons….
i’m an atheist, pox on all your gods, 1 to 333 million inclusive (my new signature, i will keep adding tag lines until i make my non-muslim identity clear to everyone and prove ikram wrong. after this persistent experience on SM i am thinking it best that the western public not get too fixed in their head an idea what islam is, as that might make it harder for me to disassociate myself from that identity since they might imbibe the muslim view that one is always what one is born-which clearly holds sway among many here)
p.s. here is one story (out of two) where i fought back against someone who disliked me for my brownness. every morning this cracker who smoked weed would shout slurs at me and threaten to kick my ass when i walked to school. about 2 weeks into it he decided to chuck me in the back. i thought of fighting back, but i bided my time. the next day he jumped out onto the sidewalk and was going to hit me when i pulled out a steak knife, a friend of mine jumped him from behind, while another was on the lookout making sure that the dude didn’t have backup. after kicking him in the stomach a few times i put the steak knife to his throat (it was a steak knife, so some perspective please, i wasn’t going to kill him) and told him i’d tear him up the next time he bothered me. he never bothered me again.
now, the moral of the story is that he called me a “nigger,” a “camel jockey” and a “dothead.” i am not really a nigger, technically speaking, nor have my ancestors sat atop a camel, that i know of, nor are any of them “dotheads” (i suppose i have 3rd cousins who are hindu, but we lost touch with them when they moved to calcutta in 1940 or so). i guess i could have explained the confusion to my potentional assailant, that i, as someone whose parentage was muslim, was born in a country where the mean precipitation was 80 inches, and have no recent (as in more recent that 40,000 years) african forebears in any great numbers, was being hated for the wrong reasons. but look, that cracker was dumb as a rock.
“My ancestors are from Gandhi country, yes Gandhiji had faults but he certainly was NOT violent.”
Sonal, ever read any Gandhi? As you say, he was not violent. Nor was he prejudiced. “India does not belong exclusively to the Hindus. Muslims, Parsees, Christians all live here. The claim of the Hindus that India has become the land of the Hindus is totally incorrect. This land belongs to all who live here.” More here. And here.
Has this been your experience Prem? Because it hasn’t been mine. I live in New York, where for the professional bangali Hindu Indian community I come from, a “South Asian” identity would be a joke. There are about 19 durga pujas, and even the bangladeshi Hindus and Indian Hindus don’t have the same events. Outside of having pujas at gujrati samaj, I was never really exposed to other desi kids in my weekend desi identity.
Having grown up, now, my desi friends are Pakistani, Indian, Bangladeshi, 1st gen, 2nd gen, 1.9 gen, of all different ethnicities and languages (even if the homogenizing Hindi/Urdu speakers get on my nerves from time to time ;), Jain, Christian, Hindu, Muslim, straight(ish), queer, women, men, gender queer, etc. Although I still identify and like to associate with bangalis in particular (and in particular intelligent and/or creative and/or progressive and/or nice bangalis or at least bangla speakers), because it gives me a sense of identity and comfort on an emotional level.
A long while back, when SALGA (South Asian Lesbian and Gay Association) wanted to march in the India Day parade, they were told that they couldn’t. When Sakhi offered to have SALGA march with them, the Federation of Indian Associations, which gives out the permits, denied them on the grounds that they were “South Asian” organizations–which was a convenient cover for their homophobia (which probably also applied to Sakhi, since conservative desis have in the past seen domestic violence groups as “lesbian” heavy).
Just to avoid being a parochial NY f@##: my friend in Louisville told me that the big divide there was between North and South.
I could probably dig up some more anecdotes, but I think my points been made.
Also, what’s wrong with a pan-Islamic identity being the preferred one vs. a South Asian identity for some people? I’m sure there are some Bangladeshi or Indian kids in Queens that feel the religion thing more, some that feel the race thing more, some that feel the language thing more, etc., etc.
I’m sure there are some Bangladeshi or Indian kids in Queens that feel the religion thing more, some that feel the race thing more, some that feel the language thing more, etc., etc.
i think that the religion thing is more important for muslim browns because their religion ties them into a transnational community that transcends their race. in many parts of the country because of the lack of muslims masjids are multiethnic by necessity, so the act of worship can bring the more religious into regular personalized contact with people of other cultures. and even when masjids are dominated by one group others exist at the margins. hindu identity is different because to the first aproximation it is coterminus with brownness. remember that “hindu” was even originally the generic term for indian. cross-cultural/racial/ethnic marriages would be a good gauge of these trends within the brown community. that is, what is the rate of inter-religious marriage vs. inter-ethnic marriage vs. inter-racial marriage? after my talk of not knowing much about browns personally i will offer that my family seems to know many 2nd generation pakistani-bangladeshi marriages, but none between bangladeshis-and non-muslim indians. i know these exist, but i get the impression they are less common.
and Mr. Mujahid…that Sholay joke was in a very poor taste.
It would be funny, if it weren’t so sad, how so many of these posts advocate that the Hindus, Sikhs, Christians etc. should distance themselves from the Muslims. I guess the motto is “Isolation: You can’t do it alone!”.
I am not “islamaphobic”, if you read my post properly you would have seen that I said no Innocent people including Muslims deserve backlash. Go back and read it before you call me a monster. Thats just rude and people who cant read are certainly more stupid than me.
but wait…how will the racists know which muslims to assault? ooh, i know! we’ll make them wear little crescent moons on their clothes…that way everyone can tell who the innocent muslims are apart from the guilty ones…and THEN the right ones will get beat down. cool!
sonal, razib is right, stupidity is the greatest sin. we can all read and unlike you, express ourselves clearly. with or without sleep, you are an idiot. (LoL!) i pray no one assaults you or anyone you love, because your pathetic “not me!” strategy will accomplish jack shit. i’m indian, and i HAVE been called a paki bitch. my saying that i was not wouldn’t have accomplished a damned thing. the people who yelled that epithet screamed out of a passing car window at me– but i guess if i were as earnestly lame as you, i would’ve chased them down and TAUGHT them that, lo, i am not an evil one.
while you try and disparage all ABDCs as being foo-foo bhangra dancers, all ABCDs are like, “thank GOD that moronic, prejudiced retard wants nothing to do with us.” the system works.
as for avinash, you are confused at best and deluded at worst. islam is an abrahamic religion– it shares more with christianity than hinduism EVER will. but hey, you’re the expert on white conservative men loving the hindu cause– how’s pat robertson doing these days? i’m sure you are so potent a force, you’ve convinced him that your heathen people aren’t all damned to hell-fire, right?
Realitycheck, me thinks you really need one. Its not a theology class for similarities between Abrahmic religions…try telling a white christian that what he follows is very similar to what Osama believes in. At best you will be brushed off as a moron, at worst you might get a few hundred stitches and/or need to replace some missing body parts. White christians may still think of Hindus as heathen…but hell, we dont bomb the daylight out of NY and London. The words associated with ‘Hindu’ at least among the educated ones are the following: Intelligent, hard working, quiet, peace-loving (or whatever that means NO to violence). Any wonder why no temples are damaged in the UK after the london bommbings…
I think it’s personal, although if you want to bring up some examples or some information that show that one identity takes precedence over another among many people, I wouldn’t take issue with that. It’s just that I know a Muslim brown (who happens to be queer) who looks for Punjabi and English speakers. That’s his criteria. I know a teenage Muslim brown whose identity calculus leaves here who knows where; all I know is that she dresses and acts like a working class person of color in New York. I know a Muslim brown that left his country because he faced persecution because of his religious ideas (which, if I recall, were atheistic). I know an upper middle class Muslim brown who’s probably going to marry an atheistic Hindu.
I’m not saying they might not be outliers–I know others who come closer to fitting the mold that you’re talking about. My point was just that vast generalizations like the one Prem made about how certain groups are like this or that in the diaspora may or may not be true overall, but in the specific context and among specific people that I know, they clearly are belied. And if I’m going to believe something other than what I’ve seen with my own eyes, I want more evidence than blanket assertions (particularly in the context of this discussion, which is so heavily steeped in a discourse of blaming Muslims that that it’s not even funny).
Reality Check,
Your post is so full of hatred, your are not even worth my time. You foo foo ABCD..go back and do your ugly dances from bollywood movies while proclaiming your knowledge of Indian culture..”dude I am sooo Indian dude”..”dude instead of learning what it means to be Brown from my parents, dude I come to a website to learn it”..yukk.
I dont care how the racists will identify the muslims…its not my problem. I worry about myself…selfish as it may sound. The “not me” strategy worked for my uncle, and it might not always work..but it’s certainly worth a try. Besides, your post is so full of insults, your entire point goes down the drain. Dont worry your Muslim boyfriend or whoever will have plenty of support from Hindus out there. We Hindus are known for going against our own..solidarity so often seen in the Islam world is absent amongst Hindus.. Yea I might lame..but at least I am not dead from a mistaken hate crime. ABCDs are too confused to worry about whose prejudice etc…most are watching some Bollywood movie and attending a “South Asian” event..all the while saying how much they are truly Indian..err sorry I meant “South Asian”
Uma..thanks for your comments. Uma you live in Bombay. Come to the US/UK, sit on a train and be called Osama or a terrorist.. Then you will know the pain of it..and you will probably be wondering what you can do practically to appease it.
After Pearl Harbor, the Chinese alienated themselves from the Japanese after the backlash started here in the US. I guess they were all “stupid” too..Or maybe just maybe they were trying to survive and make their lives easier? IS that such a bad thing??? It saved many of them some grief. You dont have to agree with me, just stop the hurling…jeez
As I said before, and I will say again, I am not anti-Muslim. I dont think anyone deserves backlash against them.
If you read my post you might have seen that. I do however think there is absolutely nothing wrong in clarifying my religion to people when they question my origins…I will not take the harder road here..I want to make my life easier..in whatever small capacity that might be..
Guys, I think we should stop feeding the trolls in his post. After Sonal’s comment at the top I have started to lose my faith in humanity. At one point I was actually cheering Razib on which NEVER happens 🙂
I agree with Sonal. Indians have suffered a lot of terrorism from Pakistan and there is no way that I feel any solidarity with them. It’s unfortunate that we are all brown and all of us have to suffer because of the Pakistanis.The answer is to educate people that Indians are NOT the same as Pakis, we too are victims of terrorism. ABCD South Asians, you really need a reality check.Please go to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, try practicing your faith/atheism there and see how long you survive.
Okay. But you should cheer for Razib more often.
Is this a contest of who has more ethnic pride, versus who is more corrupt and western?
I think you guys are being overly condescending to Sonal. I don’t agree with her views – they’re narrow-minded and somewhat unrealistic – but they are her views and her reasoning isn’t exactly insane.
Avinash and his “puki” talk, on the other hand, I have no defense for…
I’m not entirely sure where most of you were born/raised but it seems like people who’ve spent more in India are more dismissive of the term “south asian”, while those of us who were raised in the west are open to it
George – the issue is not “Do we approve of everything that muslim countries and organizations do in the name of their religion.” Of course not. We don’t have to. But in terms of formulating a response to these attacks, solidarity makes alot of sense. I’m speaking as a Sikh who helped formulate community response post 9/11. Efforts to separate ourselves from Muslims were against our principles, but they were also ineffective. Sonal’s uncle may have been able to talk himself out of a beating by saying that he wasn’t a muslim, but most of the time people don’t care. So even if you want to take a selfish stance, it makes sense to try to oppose all violence, rather than trying to redirect the violence towards “them” not “us”.
George,
Thank you. But these people are mostly American desis and they will NEVER NEVER see where you and I are coming from. It such a travesty “gasp” for them to even imagine seperating people even for the sake of making life a bit easier. I am not talking about bigots and fights here, I am talking about general day to day stuff..Never…For them it’s a “Brown vs Non-Brown” thing..well the only Second generation who do not follow the “brown vs non brown” thing evidently are the British Raised Muslims who attacked last week..hmmm. George the people here never lived in India, or experienced the terror in India firsthand. What they hear is usually from their parents, and time does heal the wounds of the earlier generation. I am American desi too, but had spent some years in India. I try to see both sides of the coin. I give up, I am done. I never meant for this to be a troll, I just wanted to give a different perspective. And I never was hateful or racist about it..if anything I was just being selfish..and trying to make my life easier…so sue me..peace..
Sonal, even if we disagree on your ends we can still evaluate your means. At least for Sikhs, it’s completely ineffective. And given that these were clean-shaven young muslim lads who look indistinguishable from hindus, I don’t know how much it will help hindus either.
ABCDs aren’t that open to this strategy of differentiation b/c we know that bigots and tards don’t make these distinctions.
In any case, why should they believe us? How will they know that we’re not actually muslims who are lying to save our skins? What are we going to do – pull down our trousers and show them that we’re not circumcised?
Again, I’m happy your uncle escaped, but in other cases it hasn’t helped at all.
Personally, yes, I’m against it on principle. I don’t want to say “beat them, not us” I think that’s wrong. I’m opposed to all hate crime, just as I’m opposed to all terrorism (we don’t write to A-Q saying set off your bombs in white neighborhoods, not brown ones). In this case, principled and prudential reasons converge around the same strategery 😉
DesiDancer, I was just thinking that! I sort of framed it as a question of assimilation versus non-assimilation. (I hate this word, but just for lack of a better term for living their cultural lifestyle in a country not their homeland.)
Non-Muslim South Asians in the west (for lack of a better term, seriously) DO have very strong cultural ties to the country and even the region that their families are from. However, they are very comfortable lumping everyone together as “brown” “south asian” “desi” etc. Perhaps because religion is not a huge excluser for Hindus? But Sikhs have less difficulty “assimilating” as well.
Is this about religion, or country of origin? Hindu youth in America identify first with others of their skin color and what part of the world they’re from, is it different for Muslim youth? I would love to hear anyone’s thoughts.
(Not just speculation and angry rants about what you would holler if someone was beating you with a baseball bat, I get it, WE ALL LOOK THE SAME, my point is identity differentiation WITHIN the “brown” “desi” “south asian” community by religion; is it more important to Muslims than Hindus?)
From http://indiauncut.blogspot.com/2005/07/bindi-not-required.html
“On Monday, for the first time since we came here, I worried about wearing a salwar kameez and boarding the tube. Would the public know that I’m not an extremist? Should I wear a bindi so they don’t take me for a Muslim? (I have no problem in being thought of as one but in the present islamaphobic climate, I didn’t want to take a chance.) Will they notice the difference? Will I be sized up when I get into a carriage? Will the co-passengers wonder what I’m carrying in my bag? Will they be wary of me? I worried and worried before slipping into my kurta. I needn’t have bothered. The evening was smooth as ever. There were no hushed whispers or racist taunts. People were polite and went about their business. Someone even went out of his way to give me directions. I don’t think he noticed my bindi.”
Just to introduce some kumbaya vibes here :-).
Uma..thanks for your comments. Uma you live in Bombay. Come to the US/UK, sit on a train and be called Osama or a terrorist.. Then you will know the pain of it..and you will probably be wondering what you can do practically to appease it.
Sonal, we all make our own choices.