Months ago Manish wrote about the ethnic slur “Paki.” In Britain this is the slur of choice when referring to all people of South Asian ethnicity. Brace yourselves. SM tipster Prem Khalon has been sending us the latest news clippings on the London bomb blasts. From the Timesonline:
Four friends from northern England have changed the face of terrorism by carrying out the suicide bombings that brought carnage to London last week.
It emerged last night that, for the first time in Western Europe, suicide bombers have been recruited for attacks. Security forces are coming to terms with the realisation that young Britons are prepared to die for their militant cause.
Three of the men lived in Leeds and the immediate fear is that members of a terrorist cell linked to the city are planning further strikes. The mastermind behind the attacks and the bombmaker are both still thought to be at large.
The man who planted the bomb at Edgware Road was named last night as Mohammed Sidique Khan, 30, the married father of an eight-month-old baby, who is believed to have come from the Leeds area.
Two other terrorists were Hasib Hussain, 19, who bombed the bus in Tavistock Square, of Colenso Mount, Leeds, and Shehzad Tanweer, 22, the Aldgate bomber, who lived at Colwyn Road, Leeds.
Police are still trying to identify the fourth, whose remains are believed to be in the bombed Tube train carriage on the Piccadilly Line. It is thought that he comes from Luton.
Another Times article goes into more detail about the bombers:
All were from suburbs orbiting Leeds, a city with a strong Muslim community, many of them with their family links in Pakistan.
Hussain was described by friends in Leeds as a tearaway. He drank and dated British women before being sent to Pakistan to visit relations. On his return he was said to have become a devout Muslim, turning his back on his previous life.
A neighbour of Tanweer last night told ITN news last night that he had spent four months in Lahore, Pakistan, and two months in Afghanistan. The neighbour, who did not want to be identified, said: “He was a good lad from a good family.”
Police refused to disclose last night whether the “personal property” found on the bombers included any clues as to the militant group behind this attack. There was obvious pressure on Scotland Yard and the security services immediately to mount armed raids on the men’s home addresses to reassure a nervous public that they knew who was responsible for the murder of more than 50 people.
Instead they waited, checking with agents in Pakistan what, if anything, was known about the four, or whether there were links with militant groups operating here. The security authorities wanted to establish how many more would-be suicide bombers were part of this cell.
Seems like a very tried and true pattern. If what his friends say was true, then Hussain sounds like a classic case of a born-again, brainwashed fundamentalist. The fact they were upper middle class and one had an 8 month old baby who he so easily made fatherless, should scare the heck out of the Brits, and all of us.
Mujahid
Mirpuris in England dont associate themselves with Punjabis they associate themselves lock stock and barrel with Kashmir and it is a major source of the fanatcism that lives amongst them. Their relationship with Sikhs is equally vexed. Mirpuri boys are known to terrorise and abuse Sikhs and vandalise gurdwaras in the north of England and in towns like Slough.
It is all part of the same mad fanatic fundamentalism tolerated amongst Pakistanis that has lead to this suicide bombing.
None of this is a surprise to Indians living in England who have been noting and experiencing the fanaticism of Mirpuris in their midst for a long long time, but have been ignored or shouted down by leftists, liberals and ‘We are all Desis lets ignore the problem’ type people for a while.
The attacks on Sikhs are a great irony, but Sikhs are absolutely in the mainstream of British society on this matter.
As yet, I have not heard any claims that these suicide bombers were actually evil scumbag Jews sent by Mossad, are you going to be the one to do so?
People dont realise what a colossal fuck up this is, you have no idea at all of the impact of this in Britain.
This is ironic as the Punjabis in Uk don’t consider the Mirpuris to be Punjabi and don’t get along with them.
This is true because as I understand the Mirpuris are considered too religious and backward (Mirpur is a village/tribal area) by the general Pakistanis in Britain especially by those who come from big cities in Pakistan like Karachi or Lahore. In fact when I was in UK, the Pakistanis would tease other Pakistanis by calling them ‘Mirpuris’. The area around Leeds (Bradford) is indeed populated by Pakistanis and a lot of them are originally from the Mirpur area. As I remember a dam was built in that area which led to a huge outflow of Mirpur population to the UK in the 50’s. Since the 50’s a lot more have to UK from Mirpur through marriage. The Mirpuris in Britain to a large extent have maintained their way of life and culture, religion as they practiced it in Pakistan and theres almost no assimilation with the larger English population. Some of the areas in Bradord even today look just like a remote village from interior Punjab.
I was under the impression that Pakistanis disavow Punjabi and refuse to teach it in their schools and that Punjabi is dying out while Urdu and Arabicization is occuring all over Pakistan.
Yes this is true as well. I guess I should have not used the term ‘punjabized’ because as tara points out there is no push for punjabi in schools etc., I was pointing out the fact that the culture in Pakistan controlled Kashmir is becoming more ‘punjabi’ and less Kashmiri. The Punjabi businessmen have moved into those areas and a lot of Kashmiris have come down to live in Punjab.
Prem, I am not surprised. I saw a report on the scores in standardizes tests in UK schools and the differences in score levels of kids of different ethnicities (they apparently keep a track of the scores of kids in schools by regularly giving them standarized tests in UK and the scores are broken down on an ethnic basis too) The Chinese kids were at the top followed by Indians. Third were the mix race ( Asian/White) and fourth were the white kids. The Pakistanis were at the bottom. There obviously is a problem with the Pakistani population in England.
Maybe YOU can’t, Jacob Joseph Jingleheimer Schmidt. For some of us, choosing one limited facet of our heritage and experience would be like asking a parent which is their favorite child. Identify however you like, it should only matter to you. Likewise, none of your bile or grappling for an overinflated definition of national identity is impacting certain people here.
Some of us are of mixed race. So what do we call ourselves, in your limited definition system? Do you think you can comprehend and handle it, if we call ourselves Indian and something else? Oh, but I suppose true Indians don’t race-mix either.
You say potato, I say F people who need to say nasty insensitive things to make themselves feel better about their own person.
“racist can’t tell the difference btwn indians and pakis”
BTW the site mention on top “The Indiblog Awards are publicaly-chosen awards conferred upon bloggers from India or of Indian Origin settled elsewhere“.
I for sure wouldnt have come to this site if it wasnt nominated there.
I’m resisting writing a rant towards JJ and his ridiculous statements, but in other news, I just stepped out for lunch and saw loads of tabloids and newspapers lined up on shelves in a corner shop. ALL of them but one have screaming headlines about “British bombers.” (the other was “plot hatched in Yorkshire”) Not Pakis, not Asians, but British. As other guys here have commented, that’s the problem. Westernized kids in a western society.
There was an interesting opinion piece by Johann Hari in today’s Independent, but you have to pay to access it online. He basically says that liberals need to quit bending over backwards to excuse militant Islamists as merely reacting against poverty and Western occupation, because at their core, jihadists want a global sharia law. He is very careful to say that the western world created the problem by murdering “generations of Arab democrats” in their greed for oil, paving the way for Wahhabism. A few quotes:
“It is tempting to assume that a movement born in reaction to injustice must be just. It is tempting to project your own concerns — your desire for a two-state solution in Israel/Palestine, or for a free Chechnya, or for an end to poverty in the Arab world — onto the bombers. When I sat opposite an Islamic Jihad suicide bomber in Gaza, I wanted to imagine he was angry about the same things as me. But then he explained that gays and Jews should be killed, that poverty is a good thing because it makes people more ‘spiritually pure,’ and that all women should be shrouded in burkas for life.”
He goes on saying that people like Galloway (the anti-war MP for the Bangladeshi Muslim area of London) think that merely by withdrawing forces from places like Iraq and Afghanistan, all terrorism will stop.
“It sounds so persuasive, doesn’t it? Except when you consider that Bin Laden considers Spain to be a Muslim land because it was an Islamic territory until 1492. Not to mention all of Israel, much of the Balkans and all of Kashmir. So where does the logic of the Gallowayites stop? Once the Middle East is handed over to sharia law, would we then cede Spain, Tel Aviv, Kosovo and chunks of India to get al-Qa’ida off our backs? No matter how many steaks we feed this tiger, it will not become vegetarian.”
I do think that people aren’t being critical enough of certain elements of Islam. Y’all’s favorite Muslim academic 😉 Irshad Manji was on a British news show last night attacking the head of the Muslim Council of Britain, saying that he used religion as a “shield” to prevent honest inquiry into what is going on in the communities and imams that breed the bombers. By saying “no, no, Islam is a religion of peace,” Manji was saying they’ll never get to the root of the problem with the radical elements of that population. Even my Muslim-raised boyfriend said it was obvious every time a Muslim leader went on TV to condemn the attacks that they secretly agreed with the bombers, because none of them are standing up and telling Muslims to modernize and get with the 21st century. These same arseholes who stand on street corners in the east end telling Muslims not to vote, that their beards aren’t long enough, etc, are the same dudes keeping their wives and daughters locked at home and pulling their sons out of school because learning anything outside the Quran is somehow haram. Muslim leaders really need to think about how their populations are going to become integrated into a western democratic society based on secular ideals of reason and justice.
Vivek, We actually cringe when we see ourselves referred to as an Indian blog. We don’t want anyone to mistakenly believe that we live in India. We get saffronists email us from time to time asking why we don’t take up some pro-India cause. Almost everything we blog about is from an American perspective. We are all Americans first. It is true that for the moment we are all of Indian origin but that is not a rule.
As for the Indiblogs I think we got like 14 votes. It hardly seemed necessary to protest that. In addition the Indiblogs don’t specify that you have to located in India so why would we protest? If someone wants to acknowledge our hard work we are certainly not going to protest it.
Lionel, Don’t try that “have you ever been to South Asia” BS. Its pretty weak. The tired old “he’s just an ABCD” arguments don’t really work here.
“There obviously is a problem with the Pakistani population in England.”
True, and it cannot be blamed on discrimination and poverty. Afro-Caribbeans have sizable poor populations, yet black girls in England score higher on standardized tests than white boys. Nearly half of black men, and about a third of black women inter-marry, so there is a degree of social acceptance as well.
That Indians are well integrated into British society is well established, but now even Bangladeshis are abandoning their past separatism. Pakistanis in the UK are being ill-served by those encouraging separatism.
break it DOWN, banglatown! preach!
thanks for bringing us the wisdom and continue to ignore the noise. and please, send more updates. much respect.
i fully agree with the points you raise, with this corollary. those in the muslim community who take the steps you and your boyfriend recommend, thereby also take a political risk. it’s the same for anyone who tries to break from an ideological lockstep in their party, community, or whatever.
they will be more likely to take this political risk if they know it will be valued and rewarded.
there is an immense burden on mainstream (white, etc) politicians — elected leaders — in countries like the UK, US, France, Australia, to create a genuinely respectful and welcoming environment for the conversation, without arrogance nor condescension.
elected leaders are elected to have this wisdom and utilize it. that is part of their job. arguably, that IS their job. and if they do not do that, they need to be fired.
this is in no way to diminish the points you made. again, i agree with them fully. i am simply thinking about what all of us need to do in order to make this change a reality.
peace and respects
Something for you to think about
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,9115,1525903,00.html
One of the suspects was a special ed teacher!
Interesting what the blog turned into:). Mr. Jacob Joseph is merely saying he wants to be called an Indian rather than a desi or south asian. That is well within his civil rights.
It is he who feels you can’t be loyal to 2 different countries. That is his perception ( read it again perception). That doesn’t make him a racist or anything. No need to assail him for that.
There are people who think you can be loyal to 2 different countries. I probably can see reason in that. But again that is my perception.
I think it would be more appropriate to say “they came from second generation Azad Kashmiri Families” — though ‘POK families, would also be OK.
More on the people of Mirpur here
Yet although Azad Kashmiris are overwhelmingly Muslim, their cultural connections with the Valleyproper are few: instead they are best seen as forming the eastern and northern limits of the PotohariPunjabi culture which is otherwise characteristic of the upland parts of Rawalpindi and Jhelum Districts
Paradoxically enough, the Mirpuris tend – even though they differ little in cultural terms from the Potohari population on the far side of the river Jhelum in Pakistan proper – to be enthusiastic supporters of a Kashmiri entity which would be entirelyindependent of both India and Pakistan – their slogan is “Kashmir Azad banega”.
Nevertheless when acute industrial labourshortages began to emerge in Britain during the course of the second-world war, Mirpuri ex-seamen (many of whom had had their ships torpedoed from beneath them) were eagerly recruited to fill thegaps. It was these war-time pioneers who formed the bridge-head for further settlement.
Mirpuris were deeply resentful that despite their considerable contribution to Pakistan’s economy through their foreignexchange remittances, no serious effort had been made to stimulate economic and infrastructuraldevelopment
When opportunities began to widen still further in Britain’s subsequent post-war boom, Mirpuri seamen began to leave their ships in ever-increasing numbers. And having established themselves ashore, they began to call theirkinsmen over to join them, so unleashing a process of chain migration. As a result over half thepopulation of many Mirpuri villages now lives abroad, while well over half of Britain’s Pakistanipopulation – which is now over third of a million strong – stems from this one small area
Abhi while you may not have gotten votes you did get traffic from that award site. And since that Award site mentioned that it was about Indian blogs (from India or elsewhere but by Indian bloggers), your site being listed there was confusing. I hope you will avoid such confusion and correct them nect year.
best of luck holding on to clear and non-confusing conceptions of origin, nationality and belonging for the remainder of the 21st century.
peace
Jeet, Only if you say swear allegiance to the mythical state of Palestine in Arabic 😉
So “Viva la intifada” ain’t gonna cut it, huh? 😉
Hmmm. amid all of hungama over semantics, lets not lose sight of the fact that this is a landmark day – like, the first major terrorist attack in the West carried out not by desis…. south asians….. one of us.
ABCDs please go to the Wagah border or the LOC to understand why Indians and Pakistanis alike hate the word desi or South Asian. The ONLY people who embrace the terms desi or South Asian are a small percentage of ABCDs. This is an artificial unity being thrust upon people just because we have the same skin color. Indians (From India or 1st gen ) do not want to be associated with Pukis or Bongos.These are countries with enormous hatred towards India and its people and whose very creation was a negation of the concept of a common South Asian identity.
Per Abhi”We actually cringe when we see ourselves referred to as an Indian blog”
We Indians cringe when stupid ,head in the cloud ABCDs refer to us as desis or South Asians.
With rumors circulating that one of the bombers went to Pakistan before returning to the UK, the Pakistani spin doctors are out in full force:
Pakistan: We Helped Foil U.K. Terror Plot http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050713/ap_on_re_as/pakistan_british_terror_plot
In a countries where so many of us brown folk have been hated on by people who don’t bother to learn the difference between our many rich cultures, some ABCDs have taken a position of not hating on Pakistanis, Sri Lankans, Bangladeshis, or our other brown peeps.
We “stupid ABCDs” cringe when narrow-minded old-schoolers perpetuate archaic hate in this day and age. Leave India and you’ll find that we’re all hated equally.
George, I’d rather have my head in the clouds then my head up somewhere else. Let me be clear. I am an American. There are at most 2.5 million Indian Americans. I have Pakistani-American friends, Sri Lankan-American friends, and Bangladeshi-American friends. When we go out together you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between us. Not in the way we look or in the way we act. I could care less about the LOC or what Indians in India want to call themselves. In your land skin color may be “an artificial unity thrust upon people” with the same color, but in my land, and more specifically in my personal experiences that unity is both real and welcome.
With rumors circulating that one of the bombers went to Pakistan before returning to the UK, the Pakistani spin doctors are out in full force:
KXB, It is very interesting to note that the London Bomb suspect travelled to Pakistan for a religious education kinda akin to the path taken by other radicals living in the West who have travelled to Pakistan ostensibly for religious purposes and have then come back and engaged in terrorism or stayed back in Pakistan/Afghanistan to fight the American troops in Afghanistan.
Maybe they just claim that they are going to Pakistan, because in reality they go to Pakiland and then end up in Afghanistan (in the post 9-11 it wont make any sense to go to Afghanistan though unless you want to fight American troops) or maybe are extremists to begin with and go to Pakistan to get logistical support for carrying out acts of terrorism or maybe they do go there in an honest quest for Islamic knowledge and end up being radicalized by their religious teachers there.
I think Pakistan is now in the front and center of the war on Salafist terror. The Jihadi culture cultivated in sections of the Pakistan society for the benefit of the Afghanis fighting the Russians or later for the so called Kashmiri ‘independence struggle’ have created a fertile ground for radicals.
The Afghani struggle especially was instumental in opening up Pakistan to Arab Salafist radicals of the likes of Abu Zubaidah and Khalid Sheikh Muhammad of Al Qaeda.
Now you have pool of local radicals with no more battles to fight as both the Afghanistan and the Kashmir issue have died down. .
Its now upto Musharraf to bring back these people back into the folds of civil society or send them over to Afghanistan where they can hopefully get killed.
“Leave India and you’ll find that we’re all hated equally.”
Sorry, but that is simply not true. First off, it is a completely unwarranted generalization to say that Americans or other Westerners “hate” Indians or South Asians. Funny how the actions of a few white bigots can then be blamed on a whole nation, yet these same people will hector us not to generalize about Muslims when their co-religionists blow up trains, buses, and planes, or when their most holy city is off limits to non-Muslims. If you do not support the latter stereotyping, you cannot support the former.
If you go around the UK, and ask folks about who they would rather have as a neighbor – an Indian family or a Pakistani family, do you believe they will express no preference?
Second, do not confuse hate with suspicion.
Third, South Asians’ commonality is not due to their nation of origin, but that they live in the West. Back in the subcontinent, if you suggest to a resident of Dhaka that he has much in common with his Colombo-residing Tamil neighbor, he’d probably raise an eyebrow at you. If there is enough variance of opinion and culture in the U.S. to warrant labeling them as “Blue” and “Red”, the diversity in South Asia is ten-fold, and cannot be simply washed eye with extensive use of the term South Asian.
There was a time when Indian meant poverty, disease, bizarre religious practices. For some, those words still hold true. But now India also means a fast growing economy, tech, medicine, pop culture. The term Indian now has a positive market value, and it should not cast be aside for the less valuable term South Asian.
Rejecting the term South Asian does not mean automatic hostility to Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, etc. Better relations and cooperation come about through conscious decision-making, not marketing slogans.
Both Lionel and JJ make valid points. Any first generation immigrant who takes the oath of allegiance is supposed to:
“renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen”
Now, if you can’t do that, don’t become a citizen. Period. And frankly, I don’t see the harm in considering oneself an Indian American (as someone had pointed out in this thread, the British Government classifies South Asians under the Pakistani, Bangladeshi, and Indian categories, which does have considerable utility in public policy) as opposed to South Asian American. Anyone arguing the “racists can’t distinguish between Pakistani browns and Indian browns” line is being rather daft — it requires an extreme form of paranoia to have one’s self-perception defined in terms of what a racist believes, given that America isn’t exactly filled with racists.
To “racists can’t tell the difference between Indians and Pakis” :
“write about your all consuming obsession with whether or not someone is indian on YOUR blog.”
Stop being a retard. It’s not your blog and the points raised by JJ and Lionel are very valid and common.
“let me simplify for you all: it’s obvious that people who are american identify with “south asian” and have no issues with it. the only people who DO have issues are those who are first gen or abroad. guess what? this is an AMERICAN/2nd gen blog. south asian it is.”
WOW !! Such intellectual effervescence – the epitome of tolerance. Yes, yes, how dare a 1st gen desi immigrant/desi comment on a 2nd gen blog about 2nd gen “desi” issues. rolls eyes
To DesiDancer :
“Some of us are of mixed race. So what do we call ourselves, in your limited definition system? Do you think you can comprehend and handle it, if we call ourselves Indian and something else? “
What a load of bullshit !! What does race have to do with nationality, especially in a country like America ? The conflation of race with nationality is bizarre, and honestly, racist.
“Oh, but I suppose true Indians don’t race-mix either.”
Heck, when did he say that ? You seem to have a problem with comprehension. Here’s some help on offer:
http://www.readinga-z.com/land/comp.html
PS: I know that I’ve come across as extremely curt, but if you’re willing to dish it out, you’ve also gotta be willing to take it. Am just siding with my Indian brutha 😉
My Terrorists are your Freedom Fighters?
Why do some young men / women decide to end their life along with other innocent people? A quest to find the answers leads me to the following.
Thomas L Friedman in his article Muslim Problem, Muslim Solution suggests that the Islamic militancy is on the rise because it enjoys somewhat of a popular following in the Islamic States. The Muslim polity needs to defy this by condemning these acts at all levels.
Robert Parry in one of his insightful articles points out the futility of trying to kill the Islamic militancy by attacking Muslim nations under the false pretext of saving the world and War on Terror.
B Raman in his article on Rediff about the 5 lessons from the London Bombings talks about how easy it is for someone with hatred on their mind to cause casualties, without any serious threat to get caught.
Also read an interview with someone who subscribes to the views of those who want to hurt the “imperialist forces.”
I believe that Islamic militancy……I hate the word actually – even though I am a Hindu. The militancy cannot have a religion. Do we call the killings of innocents in Iraq and Christian Militancy. NO – Militants are militants and all religions have their share of bad apples.
The age old adage that someone’s terrorists are someone else’s freedom fighters comes to my mind all the time. I have had my own misconceptions about the terrorism saga in India and all my childhood believed that all the people from Khalistan Liberation, Kashmir and Naxal movement were people who have gone crazy and are completely wrong.
As much as I still despise and condemn the use of violence that any terrorist of “right aligned” organizations takes in making their voice heard, I have outgrown my belief that the voice of these organizations cannot be crushed by force but can surely be heard and given a vent in the democratic society.
Hunting the perpetrators of the horrendous killings of London, New York, Madrid, Ayodhya, Bombay, Israel and other similar places should surely be on the “to do list” of the civilized world. But they should not forget that the voice of those organizations and their demands cannot be muted. The bang is caused cause we do not listen to anything else. This is the sorry state of our politics and media. We discern the voice of the weak and wait until they take a unwarranted step, wherein we can punish them.
Kill the hatred and you will surely kill the terrorist.
Regards, @mit amityadav1975@rediffmail.com
I could care less about the LOC or what Indians in India want to call themselves
Geroge,
You stated “This is an artificial unity being thrust upon people just because we have the same skin color”.
I dont believe its an artificial unity. Its a ‘unity’ based on the commonality of shared ethnicity, shared history, similar language, culture, food, music and everything else that makes a ‘people’.
May I dare suggest that the Tamils living in Tamil Naidu have more in common with the Tamils living in Sri Lanka Than with their fellow Indians in Kashmir or Sikkim. That the Bengalis living in West Bengal have more in common with the Bangladeshis than they have in common with the Mallus from Kerela.
It just proves the claim made by an Indian politician that Pakistan is the epicenter of Global terrorism (atleast the one that affects the west. and out here in the west the world is the west 😉 right ) – All 9/11 arrests made in Pakistan – All UK bombers having connections to Pakistan. – Most terrorism in India perpretrated by Pakistan – India’s OBL (Dawood) being a house guest at Karachi
Hey Abhi,
Was not flinging the ABCD slur at all – just suggesting that a place called South Asia does not exist as yet formally in maps much less in a geo-political sense other than at foggy bottom no thanks to the NRIs here. In India, it is still referred to as the Indian sub-continent and rightly so. As an Indian American (presumably with a US passport) you can arguably visit the three principal nations of the Indian sub-continent but it is not so for natinonals of those countries – therein lies the difference between this false construct and Europe . the latter is sometimes advanced as an analog.
As for me, for someone who grew up in South India speaking Konkani (bet no more than a fraction of Pakistani Americans, forget Pakistanis, know that it is a language. Even fewer know where it is spoken) it is hard to have anything in common with them. Yes in the US, I could mingle with them but that is a consequence of their forced interaction with a diverse population. For Pakistanis back home, diversity and tolerance means Ahmediyas and Ismails – most of whom are barely allowed to live
Why wasnt this post titled “They came from second-gen South Asian families”?
Keep in mind that Western occupation and its concomitant role in killing and abusing thousands of innocent people is also global. And historically targeted towards nonwhite and most recently specifically Muslim; the random bombings of wedding parties, schools, homes continue as does the arbitrary and sick detention of men in cages and secret prisons.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/content/articles/050711on_onlineonly01
I am not in the least trying to justify this horrific event. But I focus my anger and energy on the cycle and the people that inflict violence and horror from terrorsists to rumsfeld on down.
Whats disturbing on these exchagnes and others is the latent hindu nationalism/superiority. Let’s not forget that violent tendencies and conduct knows no one religion, and in no way is hinduism immune–as the horiffic Gujurat riots exemplify. Just check it.
Whats disturbing on these exchagnes and others is the latent hindu nationalism/superiority.
Check it,
you have either you are in complete denial. Western bombings of Muslism – hey dude who came to the rescue in Bosnia – oh! I forgot those were Whites! Let’s try again – the Shiites of Iraq are yearning for Saddam again. Hmm maybe another line – how about in Darfur – no western influence but mayhem, rape and murder go on in abundance while the “Arab nation” is silent. Why don’t you face up to an oft repeated fact that does not go down well on the “Arab street” that not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists (of the global variety) are Muslims. The problem is not Islam but Extremist Islam and almost all of emanating from two countries – Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.
Which is why I’m so glad we’re in Iraq, focusing directly on the problem. </sarcasm>
Thanks for the suffix Manish – I would not have guessed it. But try talking to the millions of Shiites and Kurds – maybe they have a different perspective
Nice redirect. Now how about starting that War on Terror(tm).
okay – I certainly don’t go along with its origins but happen to have a different viewpoint than the reflexive ones about its prognosis
“Keep in mind that Western occupation and its concomitant role in killing and abusing thousands of innocent people is also global.”
Not to mention it was the imperialist Americans who came to the aid of Kuwaiti Muslims in 1991, Bosnian Muslims in 1994-95, Kosovar Muslims in 1999, the Indonesian Muslims from the Tsunami in 2004, and that the U.S. is acting as a midwife for a Palestinian state.
Oh, it’s going to root A-Q out of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan? By what precise mechanism? And don’t give me mosquito theory.
lionel-
oh yes, let’s sing about saving darfur in presidential debates but refuse to call it genocide and put anything real behind intervention. go un peacekeepers!!! you have got to be kidding me.
oh and ode to Bosnia, lets wait till thousands of muslims die because we can’t let Europe fall to pieces.
wait-yes, the Shiites of Iraq who are now getting bombed from both sides begged for US intervention. so THATS why the US invaded iraq. hail to the the humanitarian west!
dont believe the hype. despite the lofty rationales and self interested humanitarian interventions, the US bombs people all over the world in its own interest. they had nothing on 90 percent of the people they held in abu graibh but hear those voices and look at those pictures and you stare american terror in the face. and thats the tip of the iceberg.
“Whats disturbing on these exchagnes and others is the latent hindu nationalism/superiority. “
Yeah ? Show me where. I’ve re-read the thread and can’t find any latent Hindu nationalist sentiment here. The only sentiment I see is NATIONALIST sentiment on the part of JJ, Lionel, and George. Mebbe they are crypto Hindu nationalists, eh ?
“shared ethnicity, shared history, similar language, culture, food, music and everything else that makes a ‘people’.”
Shared ethnicity – right!! With the highest rates of exogamy for immigrant communities after Jews, I can’t buy the argument on the imporatance of shared ethnicity for Indians.
Shared history ? But different interpretations of a common history. Heck, in Pakistan pre-Islamic history has been whitewashed in their version of history. Read this:
http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/jul/16guest.htm
similar language: Hmm .. the same argument can be extended to make the rather absurd claim that English speaking Indians have much in common with Aussies.
culture: the Indian elite (culturally shaped as it is by the same television programs, a relatively homogeneous Indian press, similar value systems, across regions) that immigrates to the US is culturally FAR different from the Pakis/Banglas.
food, music : Yes, yes. Similar food and music. That sure shaped one’s identity. Al, you’ve gotta do better than that.
I don’t have big problems with the South Asian tag, but I do feel Lionel and JJ have a valid point. We may all be brown, but I don’t think we would terribly mind not being associated with the Pakistanis. And you know what, I don’t think the Pakistanis would mind, either. Sure, we are all the same color, but I’d say the South Asian “brotherhood” comes more out of feeling “exposed” as brown in a white world than any genuine cameraderie.
And about this blog…. Ive always thught of it as an Indian(-centric) piece of cyberspace….. Cmon, most (all?) of the contributors are Indian (oh yeah, a few Lankans as well), and although we do blog about a lot of incidents happening in Pakistan/Bangladesh/SriLanka, the fact remains that even for those posts the bloggers and commenters are not Pakistani or Bangladeshi.
And maybe this is a coincidence, but at least 80% of the posts abt Pakistan are from the standard Indian point of view – that is, looking at them as an archaic society not really in touch with the world. And most of these are bout news events hapenning there, no light, personal stuff. Dont remember seeing anything which was not about Islamic fundamentalism or the dictatorship or corruption or female oppression or “negative” stuff like that. Where’s anything abt life for an average Pakistani Joe living in some city, anything about Pakistani films (or actresses 🙂 ) or food or anything which we might expect in a Pan-South-Asian blog?
Hell, the very word “desi” is Hindi, right? DO many Pakistanis even understand/use it? I know my Bangladeshi friends dont.
because…intellectuals use words like “retard” when they disagree with someone? i don’t think so. the points jj or lionel raised may be valid or common, but the “retard’s” point about whose blog it was trumps theirs– since no less than the author of the post himself has stated (like the “retard”) a preference for the term “south asian”. if jj et al are allowed to raise points here when it isn’t THEIR blog either, so are everyone else. the “it’s not your blog” argument is irrelevant and hypocritical.
no, the question truly should be how dare anyone insult a blogger(2nd gen or otherwise) in their space– if this blog is defined as 2nd gen/desi/whatever by those who maintain it, those who visit it should accept that without complaint. if you don’t like it, kindly find the box with an “x” in it in the top-right corner.
if i’m not mistaken, jj tried to change the subject in similar fashion on anna’s personal blog– it appears this is something of a major pet peeve for him. be that as it may, the place for venting his spleen should be his own blog, not a comment thread about the most recent development in the war on terror. the world discovers that those who committed the atrocity were brits of pakistani origin and THIS is what we’re bickering about?
similar language: Hmm .. the same argument can be extended to make the rather absurd claim that English speaking Indians have much in common with Aussies.
Yes because we all know that the native Tamil speakers of Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka, the native Bengali speakers of West Bengal and Bangladesh and native Urdu speakers of Karachi and Delhi have as much as common when it comes to speaking a similar language as the 7% of Indian population which speaks English as a second language and the Aussie English speakers.
Shared history ? But different interpretations of a common history. Heck, in Pakistan pre-Islamic history has been whitewashed in their version of history.
History is indeed shared. Renditions of history change with time and political attitudes and what not, but history itself does not change. For example no amount of revisionism can change the common history of undivided Bengal or Kashmir.
Shared ethnicity – right!! With the highest rates of exogamy for immigrant communities after Jews, I can’t buy the argument on the imporatance of shared ethnicity for Indians.
Yes we all know how racially different are the Bengalis on both sides of the border, the Tamils in Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka, the Punjabis in Pakistan and India, the Kashmiris in India and Pakistan.
Hell, the very word “desi” is Hindi, right? DO many Pakistanis even understand/use it?
The usage of the word ‘desi’ is as common in the Pakistani diaspora as it is in the Indian diaspora. In Bengali ‘desi’ is pronounced and spelled as ‘deshi’ if I am not mistaken. (Bengali speakers can correct me on this)
I would like to know the origin of this term ‘desi’ as used for the South Asian diaspora. Did it originate in North America ? England ? Gulf states ? Africa ?
Om Malik claims an early use of the term in 1993. At the time, South Asian American / SAA was in vogue on college campuses.
uh, they call themselves bangladeshi, no?
bangla-deshi. (mujahid, you are correct.)
my bangla is pretty non-existent but i can definitely attest to the use of the term deshi. saurav?
Hell, the very word “desi” is Hindi, right? DO many Pakistanis even understand/use it? I know my Bangladeshi friends dont.
Desi is a standard Pakistani-diaspora term.
But I agree that this blog is pretty much Indian in viewpoint. The stories on PK all come from an Indian perspective, and most of the commentors write from an Indian perspective.
The blog could accurataly be called an ‘Indian-American blog” (Very little non-American content. No Non-American authors).
Still, I appreciate the effort made to break out of the indo-box. So many Indian-American blogs are populated by right-wing bigots and Hindutva zealots. This is a nice place to visit.
Al Mujahid,
Living in a secular, plural and democratic society has shaped a strong sense of national identity among Indians.We do not have to speak the same language or practice the same relgion to be Indian. I can confidently say that the new generation of Indian youth probably has very little in common with Pakistanis or Bangladeshis.55 years of living in radically different social environments have ended any commonality that may have existed between the previous pre independence generations.
The idea of India is unique and powerful and we do not want it to be diluted by association with the fundamentalist ideologies of Pakistan or Bangladesh.
Just because a racist cannot tell the difference between 2 brown people is not reason enough for me to forge a non existent sense of common identity with the same folks who donate money via their mosques to have our soldiers killed on the LOC or have our civilans killed by terrorist attacks.
You are welcome to define yourself as South Asian.Don’t expect other Indians to be do the same.
“In Bengali ‘desi’ is pronounced and spelled as ‘deshi’ if I am not mistaken. (Bengali speakers can correct me on this)”
True, but most Bengali speakers I intereact with do not use the term “desi”. More often, they say, “desher-lok”, “desher-chele”, or “desher-me”