Months ago Manish wrote about the ethnic slur “Paki.” In Britain this is the slur of choice when referring to all people of South Asian ethnicity. Brace yourselves. SM tipster Prem Khalon has been sending us the latest news clippings on the London bomb blasts. From the Timesonline:
Four friends from northern England have changed the face of terrorism by carrying out the suicide bombings that brought carnage to London last week.
It emerged last night that, for the first time in Western Europe, suicide bombers have been recruited for attacks. Security forces are coming to terms with the realisation that young Britons are prepared to die for their militant cause.
Three of the men lived in Leeds and the immediate fear is that members of a terrorist cell linked to the city are planning further strikes. The mastermind behind the attacks and the bombmaker are both still thought to be at large.
The man who planted the bomb at Edgware Road was named last night as Mohammed Sidique Khan, 30, the married father of an eight-month-old baby, who is believed to have come from the Leeds area.
Two other terrorists were Hasib Hussain, 19, who bombed the bus in Tavistock Square, of Colenso Mount, Leeds, and Shehzad Tanweer, 22, the Aldgate bomber, who lived at Colwyn Road, Leeds.
Police are still trying to identify the fourth, whose remains are believed to be in the bombed Tube train carriage on the Piccadilly Line. It is thought that he comes from Luton.
Another Times article goes into more detail about the bombers:
All were from suburbs orbiting Leeds, a city with a strong Muslim community, many of them with their family links in Pakistan.
Hussain was described by friends in Leeds as a tearaway. He drank and dated British women before being sent to Pakistan to visit relations. On his return he was said to have become a devout Muslim, turning his back on his previous life.
A neighbour of Tanweer last night told ITN news last night that he had spent four months in Lahore, Pakistan, and two months in Afghanistan. The neighbour, who did not want to be identified, said: “He was a good lad from a good family.”
Police refused to disclose last night whether the “personal property” found on the bombers included any clues as to the militant group behind this attack. There was obvious pressure on Scotland Yard and the security services immediately to mount armed raids on the men’s home addresses to reassure a nervous public that they knew who was responsible for the murder of more than 50 people.
Instead they waited, checking with agents in Pakistan what, if anything, was known about the four, or whether there were links with militant groups operating here. The security authorities wanted to establish how many more would-be suicide bombers were part of this cell.
Seems like a very tried and true pattern. If what his friends say was true, then Hussain sounds like a classic case of a born-again, brainwashed fundamentalist. The fact they were upper middle class and one had an 8 month old baby who he so easily made fatherless, should scare the heck out of the Brits, and all of us.
Yikes Vivek, you donate money every day to kill innocent Indians? It seems you misunderstood me, same I should hope you didn’t mean your above-mentioned statement to read the way it does. Lest I misunderstand and take you to be bankrolling Indian-killers.
Brown, certainly the last thing I mean to be is racist. The casual verbiage used around here (maybe not elsewhere) often lumps nationality, cultural identity and race together for little societal labels. My point was that in being of mixed-race, one could have parents from completely different countries AND be born in America. Understandably, they would feel some sense of loyalty to all 3 countries, especially depending on how often they visit the 2 countries of their parentage. For so long as we continue to identify as subsets (Gujarati, Punjabi, Maharashtrian– as well as religion, gender, nationality, veg/non-veg, etc) it is at its most basal need, an attempt to find belonging.
Some identify first and foremost with their vocation, secondarily with a religion, region or nationality, etc… My point was similar to Abhi’s, that for those of us raised/born here, we don’t have the history of hate for Pakistan, Bangladesh or any neighboring countries of our ancestors. It makes no sense to me to hate someone who hasn’t done anything to me, based on something they are unaccountable for like their origins.
KXB- you’re totally right. I can’t dispute it for a second. And because I’m born and raised in the west, my perspective is that we collectively have more in common, viewed here as a minority, though often lumped together. I’m not a big fan of what certain individuals in Pakistan or Afghanistan have done but I see about as much reason to judge their entire populus for it, as I feel necessary to condemn all of white america for Timothy McVeigh and the UniBomber or the Irish for the IRA. When other posters say things like ‘don’t club me in with the Pakis…’ I think, what’s the problem? I don’t lump poachers in with hunters… to me it’s the same leap of logic. “Don’t lump me in with violent people with no regard for humanity” is a more reasonable statement, to me.
DesiDancer, This is what i meant. I hope you understand it this time. In case you dont i will try again.
Common everyday Pakistanis donate money to terror organization so that they can kill Indians in India. When Indian Airlines’s plane was high jacked in 1999 and an Indian Honeymooner killed, His killers were all facilitated and given money their own body weight in several rally’s in Pakistan. The pictures of such rallies were all over Pakistani media.
We INDIANS have nothing in common with such people. And will appreciate if you dont club us with them.
siddhartha: in response to your response to me several feet above, 😉 I was just sitting here reading all this when this Pakistani Brit I’ve worked closely with called to tell me to listen to him on BBC radio tomorrow morning. He works at an Islamic foundation and immediately went off on a rant about how Muslims really need to engage in some self-reflection and take shared responsibility (with the Brit gov’t) for weeding out the Wahabbists. He was like, “You know all those guys with the long beards who stand on the streets and yell at people? What Brits need to do is start gathering outside the mosques and shouting them down, protest and draw them out, force EVERYONE to confront this problem.” Ha ha ha! That would be an interesting sight for sure. So anyway, at least one Muslim spokesperson is trying to be critical. But you’re right, the community makes it hard for anyone to say things like that.
Vivek, I understood you the first time, thanks. My point is this:
I don’t think ANY sane kind-hearted person would want to have anything in common with the people you have described. Indian or not. Probably there are Pakistanis who want nothing more than to be far disassociated from those you mention. It’s not about nationalism at that point, it’s about humanity.
Desi Dancer “[I don’t blame] white america for Timothy McVeigh and the UniBomber”
White Americans weren’t celebrating in the streets in massive rallies supporting McVeigh and the Unabomber. They weren’t naming their kids Timmy and Teddy. They weren’t/aren’t harboring such fugitives. In fact, Ted’s own brother led to him being turned in. Ted and Timmy don’t have 80% approval ratings in Iowa. The entire weight of the federal government came down on Ted and Timmy like a ton of bricks and they were pursued, tried, and convicted by a jury of their peers (other white folks). White folks also don’t teach ludditism and hatred of the ATF in their schools and churches. White folks don’t say what the Unabomber did was wrong, BUT…
Show me the parallels to the Islamic terrorism problem, then you can start blaming white folks for McVeigh and the Unabomber. I’m not saying you should blame all Pakistani or Muslims for this at all. That is obviously wrong. But it’s a ludicrous analogy to compare it to McVeigh and the Unabomber.
Common everyday Pakistanis donate money to terror organization so that they can kill Indians in India. When Indian Airlines’s plane was high jacked in 1999 and an Indian Honeymooner killed, His killers were all facilitated and given money their own body weight in several rally’s in Pakistan. The pictures of such rallies were all over Pakistani media
Yes and as we all know Indians have never done that. Indian Sikhs never collected money in UK or Canada for the Khalistani terrorists. Indian Tamils never collected money to finance the suicide bombings by LTTE. Indian Hindus never collected money for groups which financed the massacre in Gujarat. Indeed, Pakistanis are the only people in South Asia who have ever given money to a radical organization. Btw is there a statistic on how many Pakis donated money to these radical groups. Surely the majority of the people who live on less than $2 a day are not collecting money to finance terrorism anywhere.
All this tamasha, whinging, whining and fingerpointing and yet nobody has given a suggestion as to why some Pakistanis in England are so demented with intolerance, fanaticism, conspiracy-theories, hatred of Jews, that they can produce a generation of suicide bombers.
Any suggestions?
I have read suggestions of Hindu nationalism, well I am not a Hindu. From Ikram I read about his horror of ‘Hindutva zealots’ on blogs but no suggestion as to why murderous fascism has taken a grip of the Pakistani diaspora to which he belongs.
What is going on?
I have several explanations but they are not very politically correct.
But explanations need to be forthcoming as to why Pakistani boys from England are going round the world blowing themselves up and killing hundreds of people.
Why?
Mujahid, FYI i have never seen rallies in India being organised to facilitate some Indians who commited murder in anyother country. Whatever happened/happening inside India is our internal matter. And while not always who commit such crimes are punished some do. As our low and order improves such people will be punished more often than they do right now. And why do think that those who make less than $2 cant donate? They can if not money then labour?
From Ikram I read about his horror of ‘Hindutva zealots’ on blogs but no suggestion as to why murderous fascism has taken a grip of the Pakistani diaspora to which he belongs.
No. From Ikram you heard that Hindutva zealots gibbering unpleasant pricks that are best avoided my normal people, and that the nice thing about this blog is that it doesn’t have many of them. But it does have a few.
As for the PK diaspora — I am equally part of the Indian diaspora, and tangetially related to the Bangla diaspora. And I belong to none of them.
hey banglatown, may i ask you to drop me a line (you can do this via my webpage). i’d like to establish contact for professional reasons. only if you are willing, otherwise no worries. thanks!
peace
Since Abhi’s post has degenerated from the London bombings to a debate about national identities I thought I’d add a li’l tidbit.
Last Saturday I was at the Laugh factory on Sunset when the comedian picked on me and my friend and asked us if we were Indian. He then went on:
“Okay. Just wanted to be sure” (Addressing the audience) “‘Cuz they could well be Pakistani and they freakin’ hate each other” (Which drew a laugh from the audience)
I suppose there are occassions when you are identified as South Asian (in a sea of other ethnicities/identities) and there are occassions when I’d rather be identified as an Indian(say when an India-Pakistan match is on and India is winning :). Anyways I guess the question of identity is pretty much a personal choice. Peace!
(Btw Abhi did you change the title of the post from “They were Pakis” to the more PC – “They came from second-gen Pakistani families”? 🙂
Ikram
So you dont have any ideas about why significant numbers of Pakistanis living in the diaspora turn to suicide bombing and are consumed with a fascistic hatred for non Muslims to the extent that they commit mass suicide slaughter? You are more worried about Hindutva Pricks?
Ok. Good luck.
Moving on, nobody has said the following because it is too politically incorrect. But Pakistani Muslims really have to introspect about the level of extreme religious indoctrination and self-pitying rhetoric which places Islam at the centre of the Universe and chants hatred for Jews and the West over every small matter. This hatred came from a culture of hatred. This needs to be honestly faced up to.
No ifs buts and excuses. Self examination.
boy is this a slugfest? Indian Muslims (largely) provide a riposte to both sides of the debate. Starting with Maulana Azad – who strongly opposed partition – to the current (Muslim) denizen at Rashtrapati Bhavan who has the tirukural digitized they are exemplars of Islah in Islam. Introspection does not hurt and certainly Pakistani muslims need to do a good deal of that – at least they are capable of that unlike their Saudi brethren whose material wealth vastly exceeds their intellectual.
Yes, I did. I was advised that my title was too provocative and would bring out the bigots and hate mongers. When I used the term “Paki” though I meant it to come across in the racist pejorative sense that would encompass all South Asians. We are all “Pakis”, as conveyed so eloquently in comment 43. We are all going to feel the effects of this.
The term “South Asian” not only lumps Indians and Pakistani immigrants, but worse, lumps Indian and Pakistani Muslims. The two communities have significant differences and they need to be probed further in order to determines remedial action. Please see these articles: When in Rome – Dawn, Karachi. Article by leftist journo Farrukh Dhondy for a start.
It would help if labels are not used at people who point out such differences.
determines => determine
Each report I have read, heard or seen has made it very clear the jihadis were British citizens of Pakistani origin. Not South Asian, but Pakistani. So Thanks, if you keep screaming from the rooftops, “we are all Paki”, I have no doubt we will all feel the effects of “this”.