Muslim…Sikh…what’s the difference? (updated)

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Something depressingly predictable has gone down in the wake of last week’s terror attack on London (thanks, RC). The backlash we worried about has commenced:

Arsonists set a mosque in northwest England on fire on Saturday, police said, two days after a string of bomb attacks across London killed at least 50 people.

According to the Hindustan Times, authorities are searching for two white men in their early 20s, who were spotted near the mosque before it was vandalized. Unfortunately, that wasn’t the only religious edifice that was harmed:

There were also reports in the Indian media Sunday that a Gurudwara — a Sikh temple — had been vandalised in an arson attack in Leeds.
According to the spokesman, two Sikh temples were attacked.

attacks.jpg An attack for an attack and the whole world going up in smoke. Those who are responsible almost seem to be saying, “Hurt us and we’ll hurt you, too” all the while forgetting that they are attacking their own, not to mention their suffering own. As people have pointed out on this very blog, the areas that were hit are quite Muslim, quite brown. We didn’t get a courtesy warning to stay home, we died and bled, too.

The attack on a mosque is awful enough, but going after a Gurudwara…that stings in a different way. You know, I had naively hoped that this wouldn’t happen across the pond. Contrary to America, where Sikhs are more scattered and less understood, I thought that in England, people were more knowledgeable about Sikhism, that they could tell the difference between al-Qaeda and an innocent group of people who had nothing to do with transportation treachery. Perhaps some, if not most of the English can…but much to my alarm, there are quite obviously a dangerous few who can’t. To them, a turban is a turban is a turban. Bend it like Beckham and bomb it like someone ignorant.

“Such attacks are an affront not only to the great Sikh religion but to entire humanity,” the spokesman said.
“The Sikh community in the United Kingdom has carved out a highly respected place for itself in the British society through its industriousness and commitment,” the spokesman said.

None of that matters. We are foreign and we wear turbans, just like that bastard Osama. Thanks to a coincidence of complexion, we are complicit and we will pay.:+:

More UK Backlash as reported by the Hindustan Times:

The Muslim Council of Britain has claimed racist material contained in e-mails sent to it crashed its computer system while racist propaganda has been prominently posted on a number of Internet websites, while Kent police is investigating two assaults on Muslim men in Dartford.
The London bombings have also given the British National Party a new campaign. The party’s website on Saturday claimed: “Following the Islamic fundamentalist massacres in London, two tendencies will rapidly become apparent: First the pro-government media will swing into action, bringing out a steady stream of injured ordinary Muslims and a flood of ‘moderate’ Muslim spokesmen to condemn the extremists. Second, millions of ordinary Brits just won’t believe them, with severe extra strain on race relations as a result.”

95 thoughts on “Muslim…Sikh…what’s the difference? (updated)”

  1. Looking back at my previous post,I can see that my last paragraph could have been phrased more delicately…..I was trying to make RB see the absurdity of his near-rationalization of the attack on the gurdwara by extrapolating the same logic onto himself/his community.

    I agree it was immature on my part…..for every RB on this board,there are possibly million other equally or more stupid bozos out there and I wouldnt credit them with having the IQ to be able to grasp the simple logic that I was trying to expound.Plus in such sensitive times as these,that minority is very likely to only mis-construe the import of what I said.

    Take care ya’all….

  2. We don’t actually know that the gurudwara attack was fomented by white people, do we? For all we know it could have been Hindus,

    The same way we knew that the London train bombings were comitted by muslim terrorists, I mean for all we know it could have been the Hindus…

  3. Lets stop painting GB, USA, or whatever with the racist society banner; racists exist but exceptions to the facts don’t constitute a valid arguement that overall people are racist.

    You’re raising all kinds of issues here in really imprecise language. The salient point in the overall scheme of things is not whether “overall people are racist.” Obviously the United States or the UK or the Canada of today are not the same as in 1860 or in 1907 or in 1945. The point is not solely the number of people willing to torch or deface a Gurudwara or a synagogue or lynch a Black person (although that obviously matters), but the prevalence and power of racist ideas in the culture (which may or may not be a commentary on the people who hold them).

    While I’m happy that the United States no longer sanctions slavery or apartheid within it’s borders, it’s not all that comforting that structural racism still exists to the point where a substantial number of people are willing to sponsor government policies like the death penalty even though there’s clear evidence that race is a factor.

  4. Mr. NoFixed Address:

    The guy who killed the Sikh gas station owner in Mesa Arizona wasn’t white, he was hispanic. He was still a racist, just not a white one.

  5. While I’m happy that the United States no longer sanctions slavery or apartheid within it’s borders, it’s not all that comforting that structural racism still exists to the point where a substantial number of people are willing to sponsor government policies like the death penalty even though there’s clear evidence that race is a factor.

    Personally, I don’t know too much about such statistics or details. But, again, I believe this is splitting hairs on the more general theme: lets not cave into stereotyping British or American people. Shit exists and with time and effort of good people, it will slowly fade too.

    Saurav, I understand where you are coming from. Deficiencies in bureaucratic institutions and the inertia to overcome them is probably where you will find the biggest race-fights so to speak. It isn’t against the idea of rascism, or that it is condoned knowlingly by the population that is bent on racist motives, the mechanisms are tuned in a way that makes it passive/hidden.

  6. lets not cave into stereotyping British or American people.

    Sure. But let’s not pretend, either, that to the extent that they influence immigration, criminal justice, and other policies, they don’t manifest some racism (and other things). Not that racism is the problem I would identify as the most pressing, from a policy persepctive–but I wouldn’t deny that it exists either.

  8. Having lived in the USA and several other countries (Libya, India, Malaysia, Singapore) and worked in Japan and Europe, its fairly obvious to me that the US is the least racist country on Earth. India is certainly much more racist than the US, although you don’t see Indian racism quite as strongly expressed in Kerala as you do in the North.

    I was first directed to this site by an article called “White Man’s Burden” that was as racist and provincial as anything I’ve seen on the web except for rank skinhead sites.

    Hint: Who ruled India before the British Raj?

    Clue: The USA is a former British colony but we don’t have a chip on our shoulder about it.

    Naamaskar and have a nice day.

  9. saurav

    All this is to say that it’s not just a struggle/process within ourselves, but within our communities as well–one that gets too often overshadowed by real or perceived threats from outside that made demands for unity without nuance.

    you know i agree with you, brother. the thing is, the struggle within is the most difficult one of all. from a philosophical point of view i think it is the most fundamental. when you cease the struggle within, it means one of two things: either (a) you’ve reached a higher level of consciousness, like one of those yogis up in the himalayas, or (b) you’ve opened yourself up wide to getting pimped by the system. and the system never refuses an invitation.

    peace

  10. Richard is probably unaware of “Menifest Destiny”.

    “Hint: Who ruled India before the British Raj? Clue: The USA is a former British colony but we don’t have a chip on our shoulder about it.”

    This is a sick attempt to compare the British rule in India and British commercial dispute of America. The British never required the “native” to crawl on the some streets, as Gen. Dyer required in Amritsar.

    The American people love the British because a huge majority of them have British ancestry. They hate the “French” too.. just like the Brits (I never really understood that one … talk about a chip on the shoulder)

    Well I just got to work and I dont want to ruin my day by recounting the horrors of British Raj to this person.

    Have a good day all !!!

  11. ” The British never required the “native” to crawl on the some streets, as Gen. Dyer required in Amritsar.”

    I meant that the British didnt require such a thing in the US.

  12. This is a sick attempt to compare the British rule in India and British commercial dispute of America. The British never required the “native” to crawl on the some streets, as Gen. Dyer required in Amritsar.

    Indian PM Manmohan Singh has now decided to join the Dream Team of House Negroes by praising the ‘Raj’ and how it helped India. By doing this, he has become the first Indian PM to talk openly about how good the Raj was (In UK itself too !)

    He did have a tiny critical sentence about the benefits of the Raj.

    Here is the text http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/nic/0046/pmspeech.htm

  14. “Indian PM Manmohan Singh has now decided to join the Dream Team of House Negroes by praising the ‘Raj’ and how it helped India. By doing this, he has become the first Indian PM to talk openly about how good the Raj was (In UK itself too !)”

    A sitting PM praising the ‘Raj’ was a slap on the face of the generations of revolutionaries who gave their lives to rid India of the ‘Raj’. This is what happens when an academic is “MADE” PM for the reasons of legality. This puppet PM has no sense that he is actually “representing” people. What a pathetic ‘House Indian’.

  15. The American people love the British because a huge majority of them have British ancestry. They hate the “French” too.. just like the Brits (I never really understood that one … talk about a chip on the shoulder)

    1) the majority of americans are not british (i think that table underestimates the frequency because americans of mixed european ancestry are likely to find german or french more ‘exotic’ than english so they put that down for the census, but it is likely that less than 50% of the genes floating in the american population are derived from outside of the present great britain). it took me 2 seconds to look that up on google btw. think about it, it isn’t that hard.

    2) the ‘french hatred’ is an on and off again affair. america has had a positive attitude toward the french in many ways because ‘we remember lafayette.’

    3) i can see how people like richard bennett would find this to be a racist and offensive site in many ways. i find many of the comments to be racist, uninformed and ethnically myopic. this, in my opinion, is a big problem with asians, east, south and whatever, phrases that would seem racist and uncouth out of the mouth of a white person are accepted from non-whites, and so they tend not to hold themselves up to the same intellectual standards. on my own blog i’ve had to rebut idiotic indian and chinese who present their own indians-invented-everything or chinese-invented-everything model of history they were taught, when the same assertions out of a european’s mouth would sound chauvanistic and narrow minded.

    american browns are healthy, wealthy and accepted. but if you read some of the comments you would think we are ‘negroes’ in south carolina in 1930.

    every weblog has idiot posters who troll the comment boards, you can’t control it.

    p.s. to be facile, i wonder if a dalito-centric view of indian history would be so anti-british?

  16. “Every Indian should get down on his or her knees and thank the divinity of his or her choice for the British Raj, without which India would be at the level of Afghanistan today. “House Indian” indeed.”

    Very high intellectual standard and very informed comment. If this person is teaching in a college I would go to “learn”. You got my vote for Nobel prize man!! BTW, quite frankly I didnt quite understand the part of the comment about

    “who has to join a gang, smoke crack, listen to hip-hop, “

    I am sure that is also made is the high intellectual standard (not racist at all) way.

  17. Richard Bennet

    Hello. Do you believe in Karmic Payback for Americans? Perhaps 9/11 was justifiable payback for the My Lai massacre?

    Ready to be a victim of that?

    Nasty logic from a nasty black hearted soul with a chip on his shoulder the size of Mount St Helens.

    Stop snivelling too.

  18. american browns are healthy, wealthy and accepted. but if you read some of the comments you would think we are ‘negroes’ in south carolina in 1930.

    Granted, there’s a lot of hyperbole around (guilty), but the phrase you use is almost as bad. American browns are not a uniform group–socioeconomically–and a lot of them are poor, lgbt, racially or religiously discriminated against, undocumented, etc. To lump us all together and then say we’re all as well off as the post 1965 professional crowd and their children (guilty) is a disservice to the literally thousands of American people that have had their lives disrupted or really damaged in the past few years–to say nothing of the tens of thousands that deal with random bs like undocumented status (and other things I proabbly don’t know about) on an ongoing basis.

    And of course, there’s the entirely separate question of the billion desis who are not in the South Asian elite and have to bear the brunt of American (and other countries’) policies–like arming both India and Pakistan with F16s. I don’t know about you, but for whatever irrational reasons, I care about that (it would seem odd to me if an American desi truly didn’t, but everyone is different).

    As for trolls, well, I get down on my knees every day and thank Allah, Durga, and Christ that I am not Richard Bennett 🙂

  19. “2) the ‘french hatred’ is an on and off again affair. america has had a positive attitude toward the french in many ways because ‘we remember lafayette.’

    What about the fact that EVERY DAY on MSNBC/FOX and CNN the tone of commentators is hatred for the Frech. Even literature as seen here here and here and I have quoted only mild titles. Give me a break mr. Know it all

  20. Actually, most Americans don’t spend a whole lot of time thinking about the French. Sure, we’d like for them to bathe more often and to use a little more soap and deodorant, but aside from drinking their wine and eating their cheese we don’t really care about them.

    They bascially a has-been nation that calls upon us to rescue them from their neighbors from time to time, which we generally do, and of course we wish they’d managed their colonies better due to that unpleasantness in SE Asia, but we don’t expect much from them.

  21. Incidentally, “undocumented status” isn’t “random bs”. It’s a choice to enter the US illegally, presumably made because the illegal feels he’s better of in that status than he would be at home.

    Before we tightened up our immigration laws after 9/11, a majority of all the legal immigrants in the world came to the US, and it’s still the case that a majority of illegals do as well.

    And on that other topic let me add that I’ve always considered the Malayalees to be more civilized than the Froggies, although Kerala is definitely lacking in the cheese and wine departments.

  22. but I wouldn’t deny that it exists either.

    Saurav, I don’t think I said that. The fact that racism exists, even at times in old bureaucratic institutions that are the most resistant to change, doesn’t consitute a whole society as ‘racist’.

    As I mentioned before, I believe we are splitting hairs on this one.

    Lets see, when I lived in India, the amount of stupid shit I would hear about africans was absolutely ridiculous. Monkeys, apes, dumb people, etc were common phrases used in university envirnoments (I didn’t go to a college there, but have been around the areas enough to catch that). The same went for whites, east asians, or anyone different for that matter.

    Heck, even the North Indian, South Indian divide was pretty harsh (in a suttle embedded way). Does that constitute a racist society? My answer is no. It is an ignorant one that hasn’t even dealt with similar issues faced by Americans. Anecdotal information from a friend who lived in Italy for amost 2 years suggests the western Europe is far more racist than the United States (trying to filter out muslims as the random brown guys)

    The whole point of my statements was to make sure people made a difference between labeling a society as racist vs institutions that promote them within the society. I personally will not claim italy, germany, or whatever as racist. However, each have issues dealing with racism overtones that society must face.

  23. This is a message for bennett. Perhaps Indira Gandhi shouldn’t have had Sikh bodyguards in the first instance. How stupid can you get. She knew she would die in this situation, and provoked it. She was a hinduist, in any case, despite all that you might believe. I think you you talk of nothing you know. I mean all this wretched understanding you hold! Only speak to me until you’re fluent in Panjabi or Hindi, as your one-off word is absolutely lousy. I’ve travelled vastly as well and I don’t brag by listing the countries. I speak nine languages, fluently. Just a simple fact.

  24. I was very intereted to read the above comments.

    Whilst I am white, I grew up just outside Slough which has a very large asian population.

    It’s sad that ‘some’ people vent their anger on temples of any type.

    Could someone clarify something for me…excuse my ignorance..

    What is the difference between the Sikh and Hindu religion? I went to school with Sikh kids but always get confused between Hindu and Sikh.

  25. Hello Sean,

    Apologies for the delay in replying to your request for information.

    Your question should hopefully be answered here.

    For general information about Sikhism, this website should also be useful.

    Hope this helps 😉

  29. I just read some earlier comments. In response to the posts claiming a lack of Sikh organizations supporting or working with the Muslim community post 9/11, groups such as the Sikh Coalition, United Sikhs, and SALDEF work in conjunction with various Muslim groups to not only serve as a source of comfort and support for each other, but also to rally their resources and initiate programs to educate public and private entities.

  30. why cannot any of this stop. sikh and muslims are the same to me. nothing is different, well the culture to a certain degree but why cant they get along. why a re they against a sikh and muslim love relationship. cant we choose who we want to be with? we cant help who we fall in love with. please reply.

  31. How about Khalistani terrorism that rocked India and claimed thousands of lives in Punjab and rest of India just a few years ago, with support from the muslim neighbours? Why do the sikhs want to disown the responsibility of that madness now and point an accusing finger at the muslims? Just to protect their institutions from backlash?

  32. i think that sikhs and muslims are similar but not complete in the same way sikh don’t have a keron we have a gurunth we don’t pray to allah and we are not against other religions if we are true sikhs we are loyal to our culture we don’t distroy because we don’t think that everybody should be one race or religion it would be pointless i not trying to be one sided but i speak my opinion. i am not trying to say anyone is bad because some stupid mistake some other religion makes we don’t want to be punished because we look like them

  33. Listen all these points that say that Muslims and Sikhs are on the same boat need to stop. We Sikhs have absolutly nothing in common with muslims and nor we want too. It is an embarassment to even talk to muslims – ig sikh sread their history and looked at what the violent and inhumain muslims have done to our religion then they would have a different view. We should keep away from there shops, food, men, women and ceratinly not let sikh children mix with muslims (especially pakistani muslims – as these are the lowest of the low!). There are enough sikh slags marrying muslims and having children – this makes me physicaly sick. There will be a day when muslims get there retribution – I hope that is soon and I for one will fight with any religion that is against Muslims.

    Vaheguru ji ka khalsa, vaheguru ji ki fateh.

  37. Seriously, everyone here needs to CHILL. One thing I’ve noticed is this whole “Sikh vs. Muslim” thing is HUGE in Uk for some stupid reason, and the people who are involved in this are just a bunch of immature idiots who don’t know anything about their own faith and yet go around making the rules and shouting how great they are.

    I don’t know why they can’t live in peace. Seriously if you don’t want to mingle with them, so be it, stay in your cave and live by your own rules.

    And in reply to Indira Gandhi and all, there’s a lot of things , horrible things that went on during her time in Parliament. What about all those Hindu vs. Muslim riots that broke out in Bombay during her time? Or the famous Golden Temple massacre? How can anyone rule that out and place all the blame on Khalistani terrorists. In my opinion, whatever is happening in the world today is because of oppression. Surely if you oppress a group, a select few will rise up and fight. I do not say that the methods are correct or even humane. No they are not. But there is never fault on just one side. It takes two to play that game. I don’t know of a few people in any faith who would just twiddle their thumbs and smile and invite tanks and guns into their holy place of worship and watch as thousands of people got killed before their eyes.

    Anyways, that is in the past, but we should learn from it. I think that personally there is way too much hatred. I always thought UK would be a bit different with their huge Muslim and Sikh populations but I can see I was mistaken. I’m a bit glad that I live in Canada, where this tension between the two communities does not exist.

  38. Sikhs don’t hate muslims. SIkhism is one of the 2-3 only religions in the world that actually belive in totoal equality amoungst mankind and acceptance of all god’s creations. Belive in peace, not war… but if have to defend the oppressed or weak in defence, Sikhs will fight for that and they have for many years. People will always talk but its history that speaks reality. Sikhs faught for all, not just sikhs, Sikhism was primarily started to helped the hindus who were being oppressed…just learn this on ur own like i said.

    I just wish there was alot less ignorance and liars like the ones here. And people that don’t know and are searching for answers about sikhism etc, need to find out from reliable Sikh sites. Media is the root of all evil, they feed u what they want. like they say, don’t take everything they feed you.

    peace

  39. Every indian wil be thankful to selfless sacrifices of sikhs for our country. They are integral part of india and they defended hindus from many invasions and atrocities against hindu women.

  40. Ok, you know what the majority of these comments are pathetic. Rather than condemning a “backlash” as you call it, why not condemn, and continue to condemn Islamic extremism and Islamic jihadist which are at the heart of all terrorist attacks and trouble in general.

  41. MJ- Sikhism was not created to protect Hindus. Sikhs became a martial race to defend their own right to practice their religion as well as the right of any adherent of any religion.

  42. Ummmmm……… i can understand getting confused between sikh and hindu, but muslim and hindu are completely different

  45. I am a canadian…all i can say is that most countries around the world ie. Australia (where i now live) beleive that if you go to america or canada muslims hate sikhs and sikhs hate muslims and americans hate muslims…….but i am pretty sure that there is more racism in other countries…..9/11, yes sikhs were mistaken and on some occasions attacked because mistaken for muslims, but one incident cannot, SHOULD NOT be changing the relationship…most of my friends were muslims…no one felt the difference (i am NOT saying that we are one) but i am pretty sure if waheguru or allah waz here…..he would treat us the same….so we should live like brothers and sisters and put our differences aside.