88 thoughts on “Parting the Luna Sea”

1. Kerela woman your famous underarms, do the nation proud.

   JILL or should i call you by your other name, Aktar Ahmed,

   seriously, GFY. your immaturity must make you reeeeal popular with the ladies.

2. BUT during the last three “north indian” social events i attended, i was asked if i was:

   a) bengali b) gujurati c) punjabi

   by people FROM north india. aunties and uncles from north india, to be exact.

   To put forward a counterpoint, the community I am emotionally (as opposed to politically) attached to is Bengali (and specifically middle/upper middle class Upper Caste Hindu West Bengali diaspora in New York). I did not grow up feeling emotionally attached to labels like desi or South Asian because the people I hung out with and loved and shared hand-me-downs with and visited on weekends were bengali and spoke bangla with me.

   I value my bengali connections, i relate more closely to them, i speak the same language, and i love them. They’re like a surrogate extended family, even though I have interests and other things in common with all kinds of people outside of that. I’m not going to limit myself to them, but I’m also not going to pretend that they’ve substantively influenced me emotionally and in my growth in ways that other desi communities simply have not.

   Beyond that, I can tell you that, having done a lot of activist outreach, I can pick out a Bengali person by features 8 times out of 10. Of course, it’s a little easier for me in New York since it seems like 8 out of 10 desis are bengali 🙂 I’m not saying that this is the best strategy to get through life; just that it’s possible when you need to speak to people about something and know whether they’re bengali. For example, if you’re talking about genocide or language identity, a Pakistani is going to have a much different take on it than a Bengali.

   The last thing is that in spaces when we’re all “south asian” like this thread, doesn’t that make it more important to point out and celebrate and deal with our differences (like north subcontinent vs. south indian, different ethnicities, class, caste, gender, sexuality, etc.). When we have to do it so often in the outside world for reasons beyond our control, why should we obliterate the nuances of our “community” (which are really many communities)?

3. A Dark, How do you know if I am from North India or from Punjab ? You are accusing me of being racist against South Indians. Where exactly did I say racist things against South Indians ?

4. By the way, if you haven’t already, check out this essay by Manish Vij for his very incisive take on similar issues.

   Thanks, DesiOne, your check is in the mail 😉 My biases are laid bare.

5. The last thing is that in spaces when we’re all “south asian” like this thread, doesn’t that make it more important to point out and celebrate and deal with our differences (like north subcontinent vs. south indian, different ethnicities, class, caste, gender, sexuality, etc.). When we have to do it so often in the outside world for reasons beyond our control, why should we obliterate the nuances of our “community” (which are really many communities?

   saurav,

   when my words aren’t effective enough, i use those of a better;

   I pledge allegiance to my dual homelands, and I hereby promise: …To set aside the maze of fractures within our communities and unite as South Asians. Remember, others don’t distinguish between Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Bangladeshi, Nepali, or Indian. We are all brown to them.

   just b/c the man cannot discern and divide us appropriately, that doesn’t mean that WE should do it as a reaction to their ignorance.

   sadly, we haven’t righted enough wrongs to take such luxuries.

6. getting back to the issue of KK being the starring role in the movie, here is where i have ended up

   1) the ideal situation is that a punjabi muslim woman who had grandparents who went through partition hell was cast. 2) the second best situation, though to my mind, nearly as good, is that a sikh or hindu woman was found who had grandparents who went through partition hell. 3) or a south asian is found to play the role. 4) or a non-south asian is found to play the role.

   for me, the most important element of “authenticity” is familial experience of tragedy during partition, i don’t think muslim, hindu or sikh origin is that important. it is for this reason that i think that it isn’t that big of a difference if a non-south asian is cast for it if the alternative is someone from a gujarati or tamil background, because these two ethnicities would not have transmitted the same memories.

   on the spectrum of preference familial-partition-experience is a much bigger deal (to me) than having the requisite brown skin. by definition someone who is non-brown won’t have that experience, but many brown people won’t have it either.

7. i just wasted 1/2 hr wading thru this rather stupid discussion and it goes onto prove that just as u can make a man out of a monkey u cannot take out the monkey out of a man- U CAN MAKE AND AMERICAN INTO A DESI BUT U CANNOT TAKE OUT DESI PREJUDICES FROM A SOUTH ASIAN DESI. Be proud that a cute young firangi chick is going to act as a girl from undivided india (pardon the freudian slip of my bias). remeber we all r like chickoos brown outside and brown inside!

8. incidentally kk looks just like my cousin shinki – way bak in 1970 when she was young. and to put the record staight – i am from punjab. welcome kk – as an hon member to the Punju community

9. sadly, we haven’t righted enough wrongs to take such luxuries.

   There are counterproductive reasons (like ego or a refusal to develop effective ways of communicating) people go off and create their own spaces or organization, but to force all desis to obey the party line and pretend we’re all the same is counterproductive too. We have one piece of ourselves in common but we’re very varied otherwise (by ethnicity and a host of other factors, including language, sexual orientation, gender, how many generations we’re removed from South Asia, politics, faith, level of faith, etc.).

   Recognizing our differences doesn’t mean we’re obliterating our commonalities or more importantly that we won’t work together politically on the common issues that affect us; in fact, it’s when my right to define myself is not recognized, and I’m forced to be take on an identity I don’t want, that I feel alienated and frustrated and divisive. That’s why I think the goal of creating unified political action to right wrongs is actually undermined by top-down calls for unity. Unity is something you build voluntarily through shared experiences and connections, not rigid adherence to an identity that’s sometimes politically useful and sometimes not.

   For example, if queer desis from Trinidad, Jamaica, and/or Barbados want to create a separate space from the queer “South Asian” space, in the long run, we’re going to be able to work together better for our collective interests if I support them. The alternative, for me, is to argue with them that they’re really desi and not Indo-Caribbean or Trinidadian or however they define themselves, and that’s demeaning to them and to me. It also undermines the overall purpose of creating unified action on issues that affect their self-defined community and mine by eroding trust and hurting personal relationships.

   That’s not to say that there aren’t times when horse trading and coalitions of necessity and all those other things aren’t relevant and necessary; but it’s a gross way of operating politically that doesn’t really work as a long-term strategy for building communities, organizations, movements, etc. that will actually be able to right wrongs.

   Just as a thought excercise, take your argument and replace “desi” with “Asian American”; it turns out to be a horribly annoying situation like the kind that exists in many pan-Asian spaces for many desis doing political work.

10. To get back to the matter of casting non-South Asians into South Asian roles – combining this news with the earlier news that Halle Berry may play ACLU lawyer Vanita Gupta, it looks like the chances for Indians to play Indians is getting slimmer. Yet, most Arab or Persian characters on television are portrayed by aspiring IA actors. So in Hollywood, an Indian can play an Arab, a black/white girl or Asian/white girl can play an India – simply hiring a qualified Indian for an Indian role (or Arab for an Arab role) does not really test the talents of those enormously skilled Hollywood casting directors (Ben Affleck as a CIA analyst, John Wayne as Genghis Khan)

    As for the whole idea of South Asian as a viable identity, this was published in today’s Calcutta Telegraph:

    “To Be Ever More Itself – From an Indian point of view, South Asia is a well-meant fiction” http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050327/asp/opinion/story_4517236.asp

11. KXB, The Telegraph article was was brilliant.

    It summed up to me ,why India is the most important and remarkable democracy in the world.

12. It summed up to me ,why India is the most important and remarkable democracy in the world.

    I hadn’t realized that the Indian government had followed the lead of the Bush Administration in buying people to influence debates in public forums. Do they pay well, George?

13. Saurav,

    A hyper-critical Bengali – how original.

14. The author criticizes all other South Asian countries for being majoritarian, and for lacking truly inclusive democracies. He says India is different. It is a pluralist democracy.

    This is probably true. However, the term South Asian has the potential to be just as inclusive and accomodating as Mr. Kesavan thinks India is. It is a term that can unify despite the effects of partition and 50 years of bitterness and hatred. In disaporic locations like the US and UK, it has indeed been a tool of unification. As such, it is not to be dismissed so lightly.

15. Yeah they pay me well but not as much as Musharraf pays you.

16. A hyper-critical Bengali – how original.

    You left out: hegemonizing, exclusive, fish-and-rice dependent, sweet-toothed, effete, over-intellectual, pot-bellied, short, narrow-eyed, and lazy.

    Thanks for stereotyping me; it makes you look real good.

17. “You left out: hegemonizing, exclusive, fish-and-rice dependent, sweet-toothed, effete, over-intellectual, pot-bellied, short, narrow-eyed, and lazy. Thanks for stereotyping me; it makes you look real good.”

    Like “I hadn’t realized that the Indian government had followed the lead of the Bush Administration in buying people to influence debates in public forums. Do they pay well, George?” gives you a sterling sheen?

18. A N N A said:

    what does a typical malayalee look like?…me

    Not to sound offensive or anything, but no way are you a typical malayalee, molle! [Running fast and taking cover – pant, pant!]

    You are more of what I would call mallu exotica.

    And just for the record people, its Kerala not Kerela, Karela, Kela or anything in between. Of course Keralam, Mallu-land, Coconut Lagoon and the like would come closer than the other misnomers.

19. I’m really exited about this show.I think Kristin will look like a Pakistani if she wears long, fake eyelashes & outline her eyes.She doesn’t need to put darker makeup coz she is quite tanned. Could anyone inform me on this message board when partition pics are exibited on any websites?

20. What she looks like isn’t even the biggest problem, people. Have you ever seen Smallville? Kristin isn’t exactly a top-notch actress.

    Unless she’s supposed to whisper and whine her way through the entire movie, I don’t see this working.

21. Yes Silly, because whining is characterizes that some actors have when it comes to acting. It’s not a characterize thatÂ’s written in a script for an actor to act out, not at all! Who would be silly enough to think that?

    Same goes for the whispering. The director is the one that directors how the actors talk and act out scenes. He/she is the one that tells them how to talk throughout a scene out.

    Watch Edgemont in it’s first season, before Smallville. Kristin never whispers on that series, she speaks very clearly.

22. ThatÂ’s right, she told TV GuideÂ… that sheÂ’s excitedÂ… aboutÂ… Partition. IsnÂ’t that kind of like telling Soap Opera Digest that youÂ’re excited about the Holocaust?

    ^ LMAO? WTF! I don’t get that, how is stating you’re excited for a role sums up that you’re happy for the events that went on in the movie?

    So if I said I thought Schindlers List was a great movie, does that mean I thought the Holocaust was great? WTF?

23. Try re-reading it with a 🙂 on the end.

    Aaahhhh, much better. Relief is spelled GSOH.

24. You’re just twisting her words.

    YouÂ’re telling me now to re-read it with a 🙂 just proves that you’re again trying to look for something that’s not even there with what she said.

    And even if it was said with a 🙂 it doesn’t prove anything, you weren’t there when she said it you have no idea what’s Kristin’s feelings towards the events that happened in Partition.

    Also TV Guide just defined Partition as… and I quote: “a love story set at the border of Pakistan and India.”

    So if they were so cut and dry about what the movie was about, why not with Kristin’s quote about the movie?

    Whatever bias you have for Kristin I think you should had left it at the door before posting this write up.

    Because youÂ’re just looking for the worst in Kristin just because you disagree that she was cast in the role.

25. YouÂ’re telling me now to re-read it with a 🙂 just proves that you’re again trying to look for something that’s not even there with what she said.

    You’re right. You’re way funnier than I am.

26. What she looks like isn’t even the biggest problem, people. Have you ever seen Smallville? Kristin isn’t exactly a top-notch actress.

    Forget Smallville, did you see her in Eurotrip?! Now that was a pantheon performance… she’s sounded like a valley girl in every role she’s played, it’ll be shocking if she manages to do this part any justice

27. drug barons,gangland britain articleÂ’s: 11th Jul 2005 – 20:35 GMT (a reprt by the guardian)Traditional crime families Picking up where the Krays left off, todayÂ’s crime families shun the limelight but, according to the National Criminal Intelligence Service, still represent the greatest threat to law and order. Active in all criminal activities from drugs and prostitution to money-laundering and protection, they have the advantage of occupying their home turf, thus forcing all other gangs to strike allegiances or risk constant confrontations.

    Albanian and Pakistani mafia

    The new kids on the block. Heavily involved in prostitution and trafficking of illegal aliens, the Albanian and new Pakistani gangsters are now using their foothold in the UK to launch themselves into the drug business, particularly the heroin trade. Police fear bloody clashes with Turkish and Pakistani gangsters who currently control the market. New Pakistani gangsters may clash with there old Pakistani counterparts to take over the drugs empire, Studies show that the most influential and ruthless ringleader of the pp gang called Prince Riz is the most dangerous and frequent threat to the heroin trade, Prince Riz is a millionaire gangster from eastlondon heavily involved in money laundering, protection rackets, extortion, importing humans from his native country pakistan, taxing top end clubs and ring leading local criminal activities in the area, this high profile criminal has been described as the new Reggie Kray

    By the guardian on 07.11.05 11:41 pm

28. hey when is the movie coming out? they really dont answer your questions well and what do the actors look like dont you think these things are important well i do. But I love smallville I have seen every episode twice and Kristen Kreuk is so cool in that show I just hope her and clark get back together on it. KRISTEN YOU ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

29. i think kristin kreuk is a great actress.most likely the director thought she had potential for the role.i mean she wasen’t cast as naseem for nothing.i also think she is great on smallville,lana has grown tremendously over the seasons,and as a actor so has kristin.i am looking forward to seeing this film.i also read somewhere kristin had researched for the part a little.she spoke to a few indian women,she wanted to represent the character with great respect and dignity.so i think she will bring justice to the role.you guys should at least give the film a chance maybe see it first then start posting your opions.i can’t hardly wait for this movie,oh and to hear kristin’s accent in it.kristin keep working hard because you rock,so does smallville.i really am huge fans of you both.

30. I’m amused how many here think Kreuk cannot pull off the Pakistani thing. Both my parents are from the north east Punjab. My father is tall, fair and almost white looking while my mom looks like a mix of chinese and south asian complete with a small nose and almond shaped eyes. I came out looking something like if Kruek had a brother (but taller and more manly of course). Just look at the people from Himchal Pradesh and some regions of north east Pakistan, they look really oriental asian. Food for thought.

31. Caucasian is some what a bogus term, alomost as bogus as a white or black identity. Although black has its origins in oppressed peoples from sub-saharan africa starting with trans-atlantic slave trade, jim crow laws and even now. Where as White come about during the 17th century, and is more of privalige identity for those with fair skin. All about oppressing the other, especially the total opposite to white, black. Please read Whiteness Studies by Roel Ignatiev, John Garvey etc.
    On the Caucasian identity, goto http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race . Indians in there. Also look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28historical_definitions%29 and see how racial terms have changed over time. Hell check out all, race, racial pseduo sciences etc. Its wikipedia!

32. A Lot of you guys sound like a bunch of little hitlers or 19th century racial pseduo scientists. Determing racial characteristics for classifications.

33. http://pasheman.blogspot.com/2007/02/barbaric-brown-men-and-civilized-white.html

    please see this link for a recent article we wrote on the film

34. Well not all Punjabis are Scythians, but some are. I don't look like the small, dark and gumpy looking people there. I'm totally a 6'4" tall, 220 lbs. White Scythian, not just in complection, but in those jagged Iranic/Germanic Scythian features. U.S. Born, and a U.S. Marine too. Not some unkempt, short darkie, goofy looking son of a bitch like most of those Indian fuckers are. Don't forget about the Pashtunic, Scythian, White Hun, Magog descendents who decided to stay on the Indian side during 1947. And changed their names to Singh. I got nothing in common with most Singhs, I'm all-American here. My blood's totally of White Hun/Scythian and Greek lineage. I should change my name back to our original Scythic/Hun and Greek surnames, before my ancestors made the hair brained idea to stay on the Indian side. When they should have fought hard to preserve their Princely States, which do not belong to India or Pakistan. I got nothing in common with Desis in appearance and culture. They're as bad as the Muslims! The problem is, is that most here aren't NOT Scythians, so they won't understand, but it's foolish to claim that all are Scythic, or none are Scythic. However some are. Also a lot of pure Scythians left India in 1947 and the time after that to come to America. Since their high civilization of their Princely States were robbed and dissolved by the Desis. No worries, though, we're florishing well here. Just I'm against the current immigration of all these undesirables who don't belong in America. The immigration rules of the 1950's, 1960's were excellent in America. But not anymore, today. With the way things are going, America's gonna be another 3rd World cesspool if they don't close the doors to immigration. But it's all Commie New World Order and the Bibilical End Times now. So go figure.
    

35.                                  CORRECTION OF ERROR(S) FROM MY LAST POST:
    
    
        Error 1:  "Most here aren't NOT Scythians" - That made no sense, or means there are no Scythians here.
    
        Correction 1:   Most here are NOT Scythians. - Exactly. Most here are NOT Scythians, although some are.
    

36. Bottom line, everyone knows "India" circa 1947, is nothing more than a conglomerate of many nationalities, cultures, religions
    

    languages and races. All lumped into a political nation. Of course most are Dravidians, or peoples with a considerable concentration of Dravidian blood. But not everyone. There’s the pure Negros, the pure Naga Chinese Races, and of course the White Races, as in Greeks, Scythians, Huns, Georgians, Persians and Aryans. Which total around 2% to 3% mainly in the Warrior and Priestly Castes. Regardless to what you are, what you look like, your race, your beliefs, your culture, don’t forget you’re a Human Being. And when people stop showing respect to others or erasing their heritages or slandering and deceiving others or spreading malicious lies and promoting conflict because of their intolerances, then you get failed 3rd World Nations. There will be an opposite reaction to all this. And it won’t be pleasent. It’ll end up like the failed States of India and Pakistan and much of the Middle East. Where intolerance towards people is the norm. Everyone knows the regions of India, The Middle East, even Europe and America are all Melting Pots. Most of the World are Melting Pots and blends of people, with the exception of Mainland China and Japan. And a few regions in Scandanavia. But who cares. What really matters is respecting others for who they are and what they believe. The Greeks/Scythians of India claim themselves to be of Greco-Scythic lineages, and look like Greeks and Scyths. So why disrespect them and claim they are not? It isn’t like India is one monolithic race of people. But instead a multitude of many races. The true Hindu count in India is less than 20% if that. Dravidians and Negros lumped as “low caste hindus” is not only hilarious, but a sick joke. The Sakas, Greeks, Huns, Persians in blood in the northwest look like Sakas, Greeks, Huns and Persians. So respect them for who they are if you seek to gain any respect back. Anyone can adopt another religion, another langauge, another culture, but it won’t change their race. Provided they don’t mix. But language, names and religion don’t neccessarily have anything to do with race. Forgive me if I disprected anyone here in my last comment. But it seems as though Dravidians are just as racist as Scythic/Aryans were in the past. Either way it isn’t right, and is the cause of why the 3rd World is the failed 3rd World. And not a tolerant, advanced and developed 1st World. Thank You.

37. racist, abusive, illiterate, content-free or commercial comments; personal, non-issue-focused flames; intolerant or anti-secular comments; and long, obscure rants may be deleted

    SM Intern:

    84, 86 kinda hits each one of these – no? 🙂

    Don’t delete however.Let the fun begin.

38. Darling, this is what’s known as a “teaching moment.” 😉