Although you may have already seen it in the comments on the sidebar, this is an important enough issue that I’m elevating it to a full post. A spokesman at the US Embassy in New Delhi announced that Chief Minister Modi has had his Visa DENIED [see previous posts 1,2]. This is a huge victory for grass roots activism (props to CAG) and I hope it will serve as a great example of Hindu/Muslim unity within the U.S. From Rediff:
The US has denied visa to Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi to visit the country, apparently because of Gujarat riots.
Modi has been denied diplomatic visa and his tourist/business visa already granted has also been revoked as per the US Immigration and Nationality Act, a spokesman of the US Embassy in New Delhi said.
The CM was to pay a five-day visit to the US from March 20.
Modi is expected to address a press conference at 1400 IST to give his reactions.
“We can confirm that Chief Minister of Gujarat state Narendra Modi applied for, but was denied, the diplomatic visa under Section 214 (b) of the Immigration and Nationality Act because he was not coming for the purpose that qualified for a diplomatic visa,” the spokesman said.
“His tourist/business visa was revoked under Section 212 (a) (2) (g) of the Act, which makes any government official who was responsible for, or directly carried out, at any time, particularly severe violations of religious freedom, ineligible for visa,” he added.
Assuming that the U.S. Embassy in India was working under orders from the Bush Administration, this means that Bush and the State Department are officially recognizing Modi as someone who committed a “violation of religious freedom,” thus acknowledging the validity of the State Department’s own assessment. If Karen Hughes is as on the ball as we expect her to be, then she better “use” this.
The other issue here that everyone seems to be overlooking is the predicament of the AAHOA. Indian Americans own an obscenely disproportionate number of hotels in this country in relation to the percentage of our population. There is SO MUCH untapped political muscle (or “capital”) there that was completely wasted on misguided efforts to bring over Modi. Now the AAHOA have been made to looks like fools.
In my opinion the last few weeks have also highlighted a generational difference between first and second generation Indians Americans. Most of the hotel owners are Hindu Indian immigrants whereas (I’m willing to bet) most of the people protesting Modi and working to thwart his entrance were Muslims, as well as the sons and daughters of those Hindu Indian immigrants, who were born (or at least raised) in America. For the most part, our parents that emigrated from India are politically apathetic at best and complacent at worst. I bet you (or maybe I just hope) that there were quite a few dinner conversations over the past few weeks between young Indian Americans, and their hotel owning parents who didn’t see what the big deal was. Whether I am correct in my assumptions or not, it was still great seeing Hindus and Muslims in America work together in order to thwart Modi.
Note: DarkDaysAhead has more on this latest news.
absolut: I dont think preoselytization is a good thing but the article says “Their missionary work amongst overseas Hindus will last at least a decade.”
and
“committed to preserving Hinduism in its purest and most traditional form, said the priests would try and dilute the influence of Christianity on expatriate Hindus.”
By definition, missionary work is when you convert people of other religions to your religion. Convincing Hindus to stay Hindus is not really proselytizing.
Chapati Mystery has a very interesting take on this as usual. Sepoy says whatever Modi did, stopping him from coming to the US is censorship – just like denying a visa to href=”http://www.time.com/time/innovators/spirituality/profile_ramadan.html”>Tariq Ramadan was. This argument makes me ambivalent on the issue. Go read the post.
Dude… looks like you are ABCD.
Dude, thank you. I reclaim!
Someone else already pointed out Hindutva missionary activities, so I won’t bother. While I appreciate someone defending me, I wasn’t just trying to be fair; my understanding (obviously not on the ground being in New York) is that “tribal education” is most frequently tied up with proselytzation.
In any case, the argument I was making is being misinterpreted. I’m glad that Modi is not speaking at Madison Square Garden. I’ve been helping to organize some of the work around this with Campaign Against Genocide. My main point is that the last part of how Modi was shunned (U.S. government intervention), is problematic for both Indian and Amrikan politics. I don’t like state power–particularly American state power. Also, moral criteria has a long and fu#@ed up history in american immigration law. Look into it.
By definition, missionary work is when you convert people of other religions to your religion. Convincing Hindus to stay Hindus is not really proselytizing.
EXACTLY…. YOU HIT IT RIGHT IN THE SPOT!!
People who can’t make this distinction compare American right with Hindu Right (if you will), including the media (they just want brewing booze…)
About what happened in Gujarat was wrong, on the basis that “Modi could have done more”. But thats how govts. in India work. A usual Joe does not execpt that Govt. would come and help them out. Be it riots or natural calamity. During gujarat earthquake, govt. relief arrived later than international relief workers..!
actually any missionary work that tries to get others to espouse your beliefs bothers me. leave it to the individual. why should people be out “convincing” others to believe something, even if it is something they already subscribe to?
the best summarization of religion i have ever heard: religions should be like flowers, and people, bees. let the flower with the right fragrance for a bee attract the bee to it.
neither group, christians or “defensive” hindus seem to trust people to decide on religion for themselves.
You can’t just label someone of a certain religion and then protect them from other religions. thats whack.
and plus, think about whose purpose is served
It was a great move by the US to deny Modi the visa.He is a thug and a criminal. Also tribals are not hindu.They have their own religion which is basically animistic. What is wrong if they want to convert,rather than being treated as outcasts by prejudiced hindus? You know casteism is injust so you are so insecure about people converting.Modi and BJP have harrassed Christians in india a lot.Our churches have been burnt, priests killed and nuns assaulted. Modi should be arrested and thrown in jail along with the rest of the BJP, RSS, VHP, and Bajrang Dal.
religions should be like flowers, and people, bees. let the flower with the right fragrance for a bee attract the bee to it.
Agreed. Works well if the bees are ‘educated’ enough to decide for themselves. Things complicate otherwise.
Let me utter a real life experience: I was in 8th grade, studying in a Catholic school (as most upper middle class children in India do). Besides reading catholic poems once a week, we also studied “Moral Science” without a chapter on Hinduism in it. I of course did not mind it since I was in a “catholic” school.
A new guy (of so-called dalit caste) joined us after a month of school had already passed. When he became a good friend of ours, while eating lunch with us, he revealed that the school would only admit him if he were baptized. And behold, he did (of course at parents discretion).
Another classic example: A priest throws an idol into a pond in front of illeterate villagers/tribals and asks it to save itself. Of course, it would sink. The priest then says “Idols cannot save themselves, what will they save you? [only] Jesus can”.
This is where the flower-bee analogy falls short. Things are not as simple.
Christian and Muslim religions have to understand that all religions are equal – as preached by Hindism “Truth is one, the wise call it by different names”.
The flower-bee analogy would make more sense then.
Do any of you think Preeta Bansal’s role as Chair of U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom contributed to this decision?
Sachin, I agree, you make some good points. the first example you provide, the parents placed a premium on education over ideology, and for that, i would not say they were “uneducated” to not be able to decide for themselves, that was their value judgment. some would abhor it, others would applaud the sacrifice if it were the only option to guarantee the child a better life. after all, having a baptism does not dictate one’s beliefs, nor is it sacrilegious for hindus.
regarding the idol in the pond, if that were a convincing argument to anyone, then perhaps they should be so easily swayed. ultimately i’m just believing that this is a choice people should make for themselves, regardless of how others view them as being “educated” or not. carrying your argument further, you could say that we should regulate who can and cannot have sex based on outside perceptions of whether people are ready to or not, but in reality, this is impossible to regulate or control. i believe the same to be true of people’s belief systems.
“Christian and Muslim religions have to understand that all religions are equal – as preached by Hindism “Truth is one, the wise call it by different names”.”
also, practicing Hindus that do not exhibit this belief are at just as much fault as Christians and Muslims who do not espouse this equality. i subscribe to that quotation and aim to be as tolerant as possible but many hindus do not.
Another difficult call. On the one hand, Modi is a criminal, on the other hand preempting the Indian judicial system in the way the State Department did is an insult to Indian democracy and its institutions.
The question here seems to be the following: Are the rights of people to be guarded by the nation or by non-national entities committed to protecting the rights of humans in general (HRW etc) or specific groups (CAIR)?
I am an Indian citizen, proud of my nation while fully aware of its many many failings. I do feel that given the massive failure of Indian democracy in Gujarat, it is naive to continue to believe that it is a reliable guarantor of the rights of all Indians. But is it possible to move the primary responsibility of protecting human rights in India to some entity which is not the Indian nation-state? I don’t know the answer to that. Even if it is possible, the US government has hardly covered itself in glory on the human rights front that it be given the responsibility of protecting the human rights of the entire world.
So, if we say that the primary (not only, just primary) guarantor of the human rights of Indians must be Indian democracy (not the Indian govt, but government along with civil society and all democratic institutions) then we have to evaluate the Modi visa denial in terms of whether this strengthens the hand of this primary guarantor or weakens it. My initial feeling is that it weakens it.
However, the fact that the US government is concerned about the plight of Indians is laudable. And the fact that it acts on that concern is laudable. That it does not always act with sensitivity or farsightedness is well known and does not need to be belaboured here.
To those who campaigned for Modi being denied a visa, congratulations. Sincerely so, because I understand and respect your belief that international action based in powerful countries can lead to a more just society the world over. I don’t fully share this view, I would like to but I don’t.
Ideally I would have preferred it if we had dealt with this murderer at our own end, but unfortunately our democracy is very much a work in progress (like any other democracy I presume) and so we had to put the US in the unreasonable position of having to decide between either allowing a perpetrator, or at least abettor, of genocide into its borders or exercising its much detested but wholly valid power in disallowing him entry to this country.
Amitabha
Apparently, some of you live in an alternate reality:
‘Shuddhi’ as we know it today has its roots in the charged communal atmosphere of the 1920s in northern India, when the Arya Samaj began a massive campaign to convert to the Hindu fold tens of thousands of Muslims belonging to the Rajput Malkana community living in the western districts of Uttar Pradesh. Thereafter, the ‘shuddhi’ drive seems to have slowed down, if not completely halted. It has, however, been revived in recent years, with reports of numbers of Muslims and, more so, Christians in various parts of India being brought to the Hindu fold…A random check on the internet showed numerous sites run by Hindutva-related groups who seem to be involved in Hindu proselytization activities…
In an appeal dated 21 March 1999, [a Hindutva supporter] writes that it is ‘a matter of great joy’ that some 50,000 Rajput Muslims of Ghaziabad in western Uttar Pradesh have ‘expressed the desire to convert to Hinduism.’ A mass ‘shuddhi’ ceremony was to be held in early 1999 but had to be put off till later owing to lack of funds. In order that the ‘shuddhi’ can be performed, he says, a sum of Rs. 24 million is required, including for the replacement of the ‘burqas’ of Muslim women by ‘saris’ and ‘dhotis’ for ‘lungis’ for their menfolk.
source
Yeah well done George, “prejudiced hindus?” thats right, whats more noble than labeling an entire religion? Maybe converting poor people in exchange for money? I dont give a f*ck if you convert from X religion to Y really just keep your labels to yourself.
Sachin for lack of finesse, thats bullshit. Modi didnt just “not do anything”…he ordered that nothing should be done. People burnt and looted shops the police just stood there and said “order nathi”..we dont have orders. And I have heard this first hand from the people who burnt shops. I am pretty sure it was same in the areas where people were killed.
Maybe the AAOHA people will now invite David Duke. Wonder what the fools at AAOHA are saying now.
On Modi:
Violence by any name is just as wrong. Hinduism, usually synonymous with ‘tolerance’ and ‘non-violence,’ ought not to pair itself with bloody fundamentalism. That said, the whole thing for me boils down to the poor understanding of Hinduism abroad, and how this incident does the religion no justice. Sure, Modi is to blame for this, but, when it comes to the average American’s perspective on minorities and foreigners, the lessons from one are usually applied to all. This treatment of Modi, while the Musharrafs and others who overtly or tacitly encourage reactive violence are given the red carpet, smells of a double standard and is bound to give Americans the wrong impression of the Hindu cause sans the violence.
Have you also noticed that the US Govt. has been poking its head into all sorts of affairs from Terri Schiavo to the MLB’s use of steroids lately? Forget the 10th amendment, rex solutus est a legibus.
On proselytism:
Converting people is soul murder. Even Mother Teresa did this on the streets of Calcutta when she fed and clothed women and children only if they agreed to be baptized. Sure, if all you want are the basic necessities of life, the label of your faith is a small price to pay, but is that all your spirit boils down to? If the quality of one’s faith is more important than the number of people who follow it, then Christian charity should be just that and not ask for anything in return, especially not your soul.
Now, if you want to convert and seek out the people who can do it for you, that’s your own choice. More power to you. In addition, conversion has brought much unnecessary bad press to Christian groups who have done great things in India purely out of the kindness of their hearts.
The reason a person converts to another religion (aside from the allure of food, shelter, etc.) stems from not really “getting” his/her own faith. If you are secure in your own religion, where is your spiritual need to convert? People who label themselves [insert religious affiliation here] have every right to protect the integrity of their community through the power of education, which provides time for Q&A and a lot of introspection. Education, if you notice, has little to do with violence or spiritual barter.
Great news. This should be just the beginning. Next stop, Jagdish Tytler, the butcher of Sikhs in 1984 Delhi riots. Tytler is now the minister for NRI (yes, there is a minister for NRIs) and there is a chance that he might visit USA. So, I urge all to write letters to deny visa for Tytler. (I was surprised when the congress government lodged the protest when modi was denied visa; may be Tytler is the reason).
(in response to Ajju)
I don’t think George labelled an entire religion but rather, just the fundamentalist sector that has labelled itself (BHP, VHP, etc.). And in regard to labels:
“… By definition, missionary work is when you convert people of other religions to your religion. Convincing Hindus to stay Hindus is not really proselytizing.”
Check your definition because to “proselytize” means to convert and/or affect one or all of the following: faith, doctrine, principles or political affiliation. And a missionary’s goal can include conversion, but doesn’t always and if you don’t think that’s true, look up “Ramakrishna” and “Vivekananda.”
That said, I’d like to change the tone if only to note that the Commission on International Religious Freedom (they who recommended that the State Dept. deny Modi’s visa), is chaired by an Indian-American, Preeta Bansal. And, as far as I know, this is the first time a recommendation from the Commission has resulted in direct action against an individual, not a country.
So, in response to someone who said the Indian Constitution was getting bitch-slapped, no, that’s not true. This action is specific and if it were meant for the entire nation, the U.S. would have imposed sanctions such as what they did with China, Iran and so on (which explains why India’s “protest” to Modi’s visa-denial was so anemic).
So, in response to someone who said the Indian Constitution was getting bitch-slapped, no, that’s not true.
Why not? Of course it is being slapped. Modi is innocent until proven guilty. Even the Supreme Court of India (non-BJP appointed) has not given him red signal. Who is HRW and US resolution to do that? Their conclusions were based on observations and interviews and not on conclusive evidences.
I would, however, like Modi to be punished in Court of justice. Until then I will only protest his visit.
Also Narendra Modi does not represent the whole Hindu community. A random audience is sure to blame the whole Hinduism as “extremists” just because of Modi. How can people generalize an culture/ideology based on some over-zealous followers – unless the ideology accepts the actions?
They have their own religion which is basically animistic. For your kind information, the Indian constituion defines Hinduism as follows: “Realization of the truth that numbers of Gods to be worshiped may be large, yet there are Hindus who do not believe in the worshiping of idols.” (Animists/Jains/Buddhists/Muslims/Christians/…)!!!!
No he’s not. He’s free from the criminal justice system’s monopoly on forcible confinement until conclusively proven guilty. That doesn’t mean he’s innocent, nor does it mean others cannot censure him. And given India’s vanishingly faint interest in prosecuting communalist crimes, chances are that he’ll never be properly tried.
If Maya can’t get in the country, nobody else can either!
I’m sorry, but I don’t understand this line of conversation at all. I’m not talking about the Modi part. I guess we all are. I’m adressing the issue of conversion. Like Anna’s family, mine was converted years ago. But I believe that salvation does not come through your family. And it can only come from God. A basic part of Christianity is spreading the gospel of God. According to the New Testament this is through your actions and preaching the word to others. What is the problem here? People can choose to accept it or reject it. Someone gave an example of a person being forced to be baptized in order to enter a school. While it is the school’s right to enforce it’s rules- it really seems silly to me. Also- the stuff about throwing the idol in the river. I really don’t see a problem with that. Even I believe that the idol wouldn’t be able to save me but Jesus would and I have personal examples to back up what I’m saying. But thats not the point- your problem is that they are too dumb to choose for themselves- so let RSS and other Hindutva people choose for them. Allright, sorry for the long post and not really addressing it to anyone. Just saw the last string of comments and thought I’d chime in. Thanks for your patience.
well, i think it was mistake on the part of america. Mr. modi was legally elected chief minister for the state of gujarat,india. he should be treated with that dignity. the way in which he was denied visa wrong.
And the matter showing hitler & Nazism in good light, was by mistake, since Mr. modi doesnot write text books him self. You just cannot blame him for that blunder.
There is no case against Modi in any of the courts in India.
I know he was rersponsible for the gujarat catastrope but he was directly involved in that.
Denying Modi’s visa was a no-brainer, it’s what the Intl. Religious Freedom Act is supposed to do and for the guys who put that resolution up, it’s what they’re supposed to do (a number of them are on the India caucus). Of course, when it comes down to it, the State Department doesn’t really give a shit about Narendra Modi or what anyone in India thinks. They do however care about the people who are just now reading or listening to Al Jazeera, Dawn, etc. and discovering that PM Singh is intervening on behalf of Modi…
A bi-partisan “American” stand on human and religious rights against a man who’s been pretty open about being anti-Islam and anti-Christian–what could be better?
That’s the heart of the problem, isn’t it– there neither is a case, nor is such a case likely to be won in India. Claiming that as prima facia proof of innocence only works with a functioning criminal justice system. Else it proves nothing.
Also- the stuff about throwing the idol in the river. I really don’t see a problem with that. Even I believe that the idol wouldn’t be able to save me but Jesus would and I have personal examples to back up what I’m saying.
Come on, people. You could throw an idol, a crucifix, a menorah or the Qaaba into a river, and no divine hand would reach down from the clouds.
India is a great country, even though not an ideal democracy, it’s still a working democracy. One doesn’t need to be a philosopher to know what happens to countries who take a easy line towards religious extremism. Look at Pakistan and several other so-called Islamic countries and in what direction they are heading. Persons of Indian origin in US are doubly responsible in the sense that while they enjoy the freedom and safety offered here, they should ensure that the same is available back home. I hope some day Mr Modi will be charged for crimes against humanity at The Hague and wish that the tide of religious extremism in India may ebb though, at present it looks unlikely.
Denying Modi a visa is unspeakable hypocricy – I personally find him objectionable if not something unprintable but Indians are eminently capable of looking after their issues and do not need the imprimatur of the US. And when they fall short, it is a flaw in the Indian democratic process that should be allowed to be corrected.
The problem with India currently is that a large proportion of the middle class Hindu population has come to support violence against minorities; Christians because of conversion and Muslims because of historical reasons(presumed). This support has turned to actual abbetment and participation as happened in the case of Gujrat and happens elsewhere in the form of moral approval. In that respect Gujrat is a phenomenan in it’s own right.
Sachin: I was told of similar activities by a friend from Ranchi in Bihar wherein while going to a picnic, the Bus suddenly stopped and all the students got down to give a push taking the names of different Gods and Goddess in turn. The Bus only started when the name of Jesus was taken. It sounded rather funny and naive to me at that time. But the point is that this discussion is about the mass genocide that Mr Modi orchestrated with the conniviance of State institutions and so while such prosyletising activities need not be appreciated, this is not the forum for that. If you are trying to justify what Modi did because of conversions to Christianity by dubious means; then your speach is incoherent.
What we should be more concerned about that how Modi not only got elected after what he did but also that no case was brought against him. In that respect India has a long way to go to catch up with western standards.
There is no case against Modi in any of the courts in India. That’s the heart of the problem, isn’t it– there neither is a case, nor is such a case likely to be won in India. Claiming that as prima facia proof of innocence only works with a functioning criminal justice system. Else it proves nothing.
Manish you are a typical American. Now you have started policing Indian jucicial system.
I love your tribes GUTS
md, Nothing will happen to Jagdish Tytler. Although he actually was leading mobs to kill Sikhs , who ended up killing more than 3000 Sikhs. (where is the outrage of these Genocide people ??? Thats the problem with FAKE outrage) Thats more people killed than killed in Gujarat.
None of these FAKE outrage people know the FACT that out of the people who got killed in Gujarat riots atleast 15% of them turned out to be Hindus. The people who need a “demon” in order to feel good about themselves dont know this FACT. This fact in no way diminishes the gavity of the tragedy that occured in Gujarat. But there is and there still is an extremely high amount of mistrust between Hindus and Muslims in Gujarat (I can vouch for Baroda, I grew up for part there). Its just matter of next “opportunity” .. both sides are ready to settle scores.
As for Jagdish Tytler’s visit to America none of these “concerned” people will say a thing about it. There wont be outrage. Although what Tytler did was a complete politicaly based targeted massacre of people. I guess massacres of Sikhs is not that “sexy” to protest about. And for those who are REALLY concerned, please take time and if you know someone from Delhi who was there around the time, you will know the horror of it all.
In response to Aiju….I thought I was clear that I was referring to prejudiced Hindus..aka the BJP , VHp , Bajrang Dal and Modi supporting Hindus. My best frineds are mostly Hinuds.I know that all hindus are not fundamentalist.But I think now especailly among the middle classes, the pendulum has switched to extremism. When I was working in India, the majority of the Hindus there were pro BJP,which was very disconcerting for me.Oherwise educated, rational and good people supporting a fundamentalist force that attacks Christians and their institutions. The result is that we have thugs like Modi in power ,leading to loss of life and property for minorities and sullying the good name of our country. America has done the right thing.In fact people like Advani and Vajpayee (he is as fundamentalist as anyone in the RSS, only he is very two faced)and all other members of extreme right wing and violent organizations should be denied visas . Denying visas is not enough they should be banned as terrorist groups. As far as the conversion issue, Hinuds also convert as can be seen by the numerous drug and sex crazed westerners attracted to free love and other such concepts articulated by the great Hindu “holy men” like Osho etc.RSS , VHP etc also is carrying out large scale forced conversion of tribals in Gujarat, Bihar and Jharkhand.
daycrise: “A basic part of Christianity is spreading the gospel of God. According to the New Testament this is through your actions and preaching the word to others. What is the problem here?”
koran says if you die for your religion you will end up in heaven with honey and a virgin to f***. And that’s what a bunch of people beleived when the ramed they plane into WTC.
stop reading FICTION, start reading NON-FICTION books.
Manish, Indian judicial system maybe flawed.But you think the american judicial system is not flawed?.Your idea on the american judicial system might be different if you would have been born in a black neighbourhood.Or born poor. http://www.greenpeace.org/news/details?news_id=23840
US should first take care of looking after it’s own minorities before judging how other nations are doing it.
US can strip search the defence minister of a country, Deny visa to a ruling chief minister.No problem,cause it knows that the indian govt is not going to stand up against it or any of its educated citizens.
Its being said that USCIRF has a hand in the Modi saga.
USCIRF was headed by Elliot Abram in yr. 2000-2001. The same Elliot Abrams who was one the chief architects of the Iraq war which has a religious overtone to it.
So there you have it, the USCIRF is pontificating to non european countries on one hand and doing a “crusade” type war on other hand. (and dont tell me that the Iraq war is for “democracy” .. and there is no religious aspect to it .. If you think that than you havent heared about “rapture” )
Modi’s visa denial has a lot to do with aggressive campaigns by his secular Indian-American detractors. They are rightly upset with him over post-Godhara riots, and with his rabidly communal politics. We ourselves have frequently articulated our contempt for Mr. Modi on our blog. BUT, for these people to cause public embarrassment to India in an effort to silence Mr. Modi, is completely unacceptable.
These Indian-Americans don’t live in India, thought fit to abandon their Indian citizenship, and are (correctly) more Americans than Indians. This means they really are not part of the great Indian political dialogue. That these disconnected people are driving US agenda towards India is terrifying. That US listens to them as representatives of Indian thinking is even worse.
There is an orthodoxy among secular Indians (and our Indian-American cousins) that is driven by a tunnel-visioned sense of the world that is, well, frequently stupid. If one doesn’t abide by the rules of this leftist orthodoxy, one’s loyalties are questioned.
More at:
http://secular-right.blogspot.com/2005/03/secular-shouldnt-have-to-mean-stupid.html
A lot of criticisms and opinion formation going on here! Sadly though it is made by a lot of you who have no idea on the ground realities of communal and ethnic warfare. Indians are very passionate people, and a when a country like India starts moving it is very hard to get it to stop – this is even more true when it moves in the wrong direction, like rioting. Having personally witnessed two communal and ethnic riots across two different countries, I think the BJP govt. did a good job to ensure that the Gujarat riots did not proliferate to the rest of the country.
As far as Modi is concerned, I personally think that he should have done a lot more. But to give him a little bit of credit/benefit of doubt – there is not much he could have done. In such scenarios people don’t fear the cops and civil unrest is mind-bogglingly strong. During the 1992 Ayodhya riots, it took the Indian Army days to suppress the violence. What could have been expected from the Gujarat cops?
And finally people, since we are on a justice seeking roll here – what are we going to do about Kissinger?
Senthil: My view: “A basic part of Christianity is spreading the gospel of God. According to the New Testament this is through your actions and preaching the word to others. What is the problem here?” Your view: “koran says if you die for your religion you will end up in heaven with honey and a virgin to f***. And that’s what a bunch of people beleived when the ramed they plane into WTC.”
I love the differences here, You pick extremist Muslim practises to prove a point- while I tell you what moderate Christians are doing. (Believe me, I haven’t forgotten about the Crusades.) Hmm, I wonder if there is a difference between telling people about Christ and killing in the name of Allah? Hmm… Maybe someone else should start reading more non-fiction.
The latest news says that, in retaliation to the US denial of Modi’s visa, approx. 150 Hindu fundies just stormed an Ahmedabad Pepsi warehouse and set fire to it. More here.
What a bunch of rampant idiots! Thanks a lot, shitwits, for further sullying Hinduism’s reputation abroad. Bet you won’t quit your American outsourced jobs, though!
Now, I will go pray to the goddess that all irrationally violent people miraculously disappear from the face of the earth.
George can you please specify how the BJP attacks Christians and its institutions?? Incidents of violence against christians don not autmatically qualify as BJP instigated offenses. As far as christian institutions can you deny that the majority get their funding from evangelical sources outside of india?? Are you going to tell me that these sources have good intentions towards india and its culture??
“America has done the right thing.In fact people like Advani and Vajpayee (he is as fundamentalist as anyone in the RSS, only he is very two faced)and all other members of extreme right wing and violent organizations should be denied visas .”
You’ve got to be kidding me, your labelling a formal prime minister of india a terrorist. This is ridiculous and i’m sure i’m not the only one who thinks so. And spare us the lecture on indian minorities, it is well known that indian minorities are present in all walks of life and well represented. According to you simply being a proud hindu or pro indian culture is anti-minority, which is not true. You condemn Modi for loss of life and property in Gujurat for minorites, and rightfully so. It was a despicable thing and should not be tolerated. But where is the condemnation for the perpetrators who started the whole mess. The “minorities” who burnt the train in the first place. Is it too much to ask for an equal condemnation, instead of repeatedly damning one side and implying civilizational and religious overtones.
George:
My bad, I misunderstood what you were saying. But it would require some evidence for me to believe that Vajpayee is two faced. The way I look at it, he is a moderate in a not so moderate party – and considering that the BJP is not going away anytime soon – we need more moderates in BJP.
Pavan I agree with most of what you say, except the whole condemnation of minorities part. It is ridiculous to expect that everytime someone criticizes modi they should criticize the people who burnt the train. The people who burnt the train were ass*oles and should be shot, but it is stupid to demand that every person against modi display a badge of fairness by criticizing the crowd everytime he criticizes modi.
Pavan, No one needs to condemn Muslims, because no one is condemning Hindus either. People here are condemning Modi not because hes a Hindu but because of his complicity in the riots.
Ajju I guess i was rambling a little bit before, I obviously would not expect people to criticize the perpetrators every time they criticize modi. I know that is unrealistic. I guess what I was trying to say is that often in my opinion I see a certain one sided presentation of facts and incidents, and then this being used for negative publicity towards a particular community. Note I am not talking about Modi or his image, both be damned, I am talking about how sometimes these things are used to create an overly negative picture of india and indians.
Al Mujahid, Again sorry for the rambling i did not intend to say one must condemn muslims. Condemning a whole group of people is not right. But in my experience both anecdotal and looking through actual news reports and what not, I have found very few instances of a lot of people condemning both ACTS. Now the Indian American Muslim council, CAIR and a host of other organizations were against Modi’s visit, and their reasons are respectable. But i have not seen the Indian American Muslin Council issue any statement condemning those who burnt the train, only a shrill outcry and following smear campaign on everything pertaining to hindutva, and right wing middle class hindus, some of it deserved some of it not. I hope I am wrong about this, but till this date I have not seen any forceful comment regarding such.
One more thing, for those applauding the US for its actions in this matter. See the following link and scroll to November 1997. During that time the United States allowed the Taliban Foreign minister (name??) to come to the US, meet officials from UNOCAL and the State Department about constructing a gas pipeline across Afghanistan. The point of this is for those who think the American Gov’t setup especially the State Department rejected Modi for any higher moral reasons is in my opinion being naive. There is a war on Iraq, many Muslims in America are from south asian heritage, many of them are greatly opposed to American Foreign policy. Perhaps this was a sort of carrot for them I dont know, but it seems worth considering. One last thing, I wonder why there wasn’t a huge outcry when the taliban minister came to the US and such activism. After all their attrocities were on a scale several times more than what happend in Gujurat, also against Muslims, only difference being they were committed by Muslims. Where was the activism, moral indignation, and outrage then? Just food for thought
Here’s the link i am refering to http://www.worldpress.org/specials/pp/pipeline_timeline.htm
If you were a true Indian patriot, you’d be fixing the justice system instead of mau-mauing about honor. Which is the greater insult to India: a canceled business trip, or that a mass murderer is in elected office?
I guarantee if 1,000 people were assassinated in organized murders, someone would be convicted in the U.S. In India we vote the culprits into power (Tytler and Modi).
I guarantee if 1,000 people were assassinated in organized murders, someone would be convicted in the U.S.
You mean like with the American Indians? or lynched Black people? Or more recently, when the U.S. just keeps
A reminder of what happened in the ‘disturbance’ in Gujarat “Even pregnant women were not spared. In some cases, their bellies were cut open and the fetus was pulled out before the women were killed.99 A gravedigger at a mass grave site next to the Dariyakhan Ghummat camp in the Shahibaug area told Human Rights Watch: “There were at least three pregnant women and one of the fetuses was partially hanging out. We had to stick it back in before burial. If the fetus was completely removed then we left it out but still buried it with the mother.”100
I have never known a riot which has used the sexual subjugation of women so widely as an instrument of violence as in the recent mass barbarity in Gujarat. There are reports everywhere of gang-rape, of young girls and women, often in the presence of members of their families, followed by their murder by burning alive, or by bludgeoning with a hammer and in one case with a screw driver.
A woman who washed the bodies of female victims before burial at the same site told Human Rights Watch about the conditions of the bodies upon arrival:
I washed the ladies’ bodies before burial. Some bodies had heads missing, some had hands missing, some were like coal, you would touch them and they would crumble. Some women’s bodies had been split down the middle. I washed seventeen bodies on March 2, only one was completely intact. All had been burned, many had been split down the middle. On March 3 fifteen more bodies came. Then I just threw water over them, I couldn’t stand to be around them anymore. Source : http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/india/India0402-03.htm#P527_94439
For anyone who is interested in why the women were specially victimized in the riots in Gujarat there’s a very good article on the obsession of the Right Wing in India with what they consider the uber virility of indians muslims by Martha Nussbaum at http://www.bostonreview.net/BR29.3/nussbaum.html
manish, Iam not sure how much you know about what happened in the gujarat riots.If you are trying to say not taking more governmental action to stop the riots, as an organized murder by the person who could have stopped it.Then you should read this http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1182431,00.html