The NYT says many Caribbean desis, who originally came to Trinidad, Tobago and Guyana to work on sugar plantations, don’t feel accepted by South Asians in the U.S.:
“They believe our grandparents quit India, so we are like strangers to them…” Mr. Pooran knows Indians, he said, who always speak to him with the expression, “You Guyanese people.” “When I speak I say, ‘We Indians,’ ” he said… Marriages with Indian immigrants from India, though not unheard of, are far less common…Some Guyanese talk with hurt about not quite being accepted as Indian. Mr. Budhai recalled how in 1978, his wife, Serojini, won an Indian beauty pageant but was never awarded the top prize, a trip to India, after the organizers learned she was Guyanese.
They do feel some bonhomie…
When she walks into a classroom, the first people she notices are those of Indian descent, whether from India or Guyana. “We call it the Indian Connection,” she said. “I glance over at them and they glance over at me, and we exchange a smile.”… When a Sikh spiritual leader was pummeled into unconsciousness in July by a group of people who ridiculed his turban, Guyanese joined in the protests.
… despite the cultural differences:
Guyanese music, while Indian influenced, is marked by a faster West Indian style that has come to be known as chutney soca… Guyanese names are distinguishing, with common Indian first names serving as their last names because of how British planters addressed them… their English [has] a singsong lilt and Creole dialect. Guyanese curries are less spicy, and a shop that serves the flat roti bread with various stews is a distinctly Caribbean conception.
The lack of mingling has some precedent:
[S]ome German Jews, a comfortable generation removed from Europe, kept less-polished Jewish arrivals from Eastern Europe at a condescending arm’s length… Similarly, Cubans who fled the island in 1959 when Fidel Castro took power were sometimes less than welcoming to the refugees of the 1980 Mariel boatlift.
But everywhere in the diaspora, Bollystan seems to reign:
Liberty Avenue’s video stores are stocked mostly with romantic musicals from India’s Bollywood industry, and Ms. Warikoo said that teenage Guyanese girls particularly look “to an Indian culture based in India rather than the Caribbean for ‘authentic’ Indian-ness.”
Doesn’t seem to be a trackback url available Manish. I think this would also apply to the Indians here on Australia, most seem to be from Fiji but they have a thriving inherited culture even though many have not been to India. Food, film, clothing etc.
One fellow I met at this years Indian film festival runs an Indian movie house showing docos and Bollywood stuff, had dealings with Indian distributors but had yet to visit India. It was pretty weird because he was asking me what it was like!?
My experience with Fiji Indians is that they tend to retain far more of their culture than Carribean Indians.
i think PMC is correct. religion is a good indicator, 25-33% of indians in trinidad are christian. very few fiji indians have converted from hinduism or islam to christianity.
i once met a guy whose mother was a jewish convert, though his grandparents had converted from islam to presbyterianism, who was of trinidad indian background.
What is “Indian culture”? Is it more than religion? Is it more than wearing a bindhi, or more than speaking Hindi at home, or more than watching Bollywood movies?
Phil, right-click on the trackback link above and select Copy Shortcut to get the trackback URL.
“i think PMC is correct. religion is a good indicator, 25-33% of indians in trinidad are christian. very few fiji indians have converted from hinduism or islam to christianity.”
That’s a good observation.
Fiji Indians also retain their regional identities more strongly. Many of them continue to identify themselves as Gujaratis, Punjabis, North Indians, South Indians, and Bengalis. I believe some even retain their caste identities like Brahmin, kshatriya, bania, and Shudra.
Their cuisine is similar to the cuisine that you’d find in most of North India.
Furthermore, Fiji Indians can speak their own dialect of Hindi. Some can even speak more than one Indian language.
I would say Fiji Indians identify strongly with India and consider themselves to be Indian.
“I would say Fiji Indians identify strongly with India and consider themselves to be Indian.”
I would say ditto for the caribbean indians as well. we may not speak hindi or have the caste system. But india is where our roots are. whatever indian culture we have, we got it from india. so, i don’t think it’s fair of you to assume that we are not indian enough. unless you’ve lived the life a caribbean indian or have extensive contact with the indians there don’t make assumptions abt whether we consider ourselves indians or our affiliations with india based on
“i think PMC is correct. religion is a good indicator, 25-33% of indians in trinidad are christian. very few fiji indians have converted from hinduism or islam to christianity.”
conversion is a problem that is not only plaguing the caribbean but india as well.
Why is conversion a “problem” ? Shouldn’t people be able to choose their own religion? Even if you’re concerned about the loss of cultural identity, Christianity has been in India for over 1,000 years …
I understand that we Indians fear losing culture a lot especially when they grow up elsewhere (I.e. US, England, etc.), but as a people, I think we must stop separating ourselves from one another. If we can’t stop “racism” towards each other, why should we believe that other races should not be racist towards us.
If I am not mistaken, Christianity was in India for around 2000 years or so and presumably was brought over by the apostle Thomas.
And a quick thought about diasporic-Indians: Shouldn’t they(especially the second-genners onwards) identify more with the their adopted land than with India???
I recall Nasser Hussain (the previous English cricket captain of Indian descent) making an issue of this ‘cuz British-desis would cheer the Indian team and not the Brits – what he said actually did seem to make sense at the time.
“for me, India is at once too far and too close” -V.S. Naipaul
My father told me a true story of a Punjabi Sikh man who came to the West Indies as a young man. He completely forgot where in Punjab he was from, his language and was essentially drifting wherever he could go. The life of an indentured servant is rough one. Naipaul writes astutely about this struggle for definition. He is not Indian and yet he is. People from the West Indies are different from the rest of the diaspora perhaps because of their isolation, that they have been in the Indies for generations and the nature of their lives on the plantations where they were essentiall slaves. Other South Asians in the diaspora pick up on this sense of dislocation and feel as though these people are somehow too far removed. I know that African Americans do not have too high of an opinion of people of African descent from the carribbean. I once had a friend from Boston describe it to me as a kind of cutlural disconnect. We speak so negatively of the ABCD crowd and in some sense, the Indians of West India are lumped into the same.
We do? Like what?
I used to see Guyanese, Fijian, Trini, and other folks as something less than “real desi” until I realized that in many ways I had more in common with them as an ABCD (and hence diaspora) than I do with people from desistan and this whole notion of a who a “real desi” is ridiculous. And that made me feel embarrassed for being such an intolerant fool before.
I am an ABCD and hate being associated with guyanese people. Guyanese people have their own culture. I acknowledge that its indian influence but its more caribbean. I have guyanese friends. It annoys me when they say they are indian. Guyanese people are not indian! Wearing indian clothes , watching bollywood movies, listening to indian music and eating indian food does not make you indian. I have black friends who do this! Being indian is something intangible. Being a guyanese “indian” is similar to a dominican person of spanish descent. That dominican person is not spanish but has spanish blood. A guyanese person is not indian but has indian blood.
Ethnicty isn’t an absolute thing, if you decided to go back to India as an ABCD people would think of you as the American and thus not a true desi.
The term American Desi is an oxymoron. Pardesi desis calling ourselves desi also sounds a bit odd when you think about it.
What about intolerant people? 😉
I am an ABCD and hate being associated with guyanese people …Guyanese people are not indian
Buddy, ABCDs are not Indian either. You’ve got the “C” part down pat.
Truedesi: why do you have friends you hate being associated with? With friends like you…
It seems to me that you have some cultural insecurity “issues” (as they say) of your own – as you need to demarcate (your turf), define (who is and who isn’t) and dismiss (the outsiders.) When you say “being indian is something intangible,” to me it seems that you need that hazy non-definition because you don’t really know what “being Indian” is.
I am not trying to offend you, but then again, I don’t care if you are. You’ve earned it.
At the same time, if you were trying to say that there are distinct and very real differences between Indo-Guyanese and subcontinental Indians, you would be absolutely right…just as you would be right to also acknowledge confluences and continuities.
If your Guyanese friends genuinely want to be Indian, then maybe all of you could start a cultural confusion/insecurity support group. I’m kidding. All of you, lose the notion that somehow being “Indian” whatever that is, is more authentic than being diaspora. It’s not. If Guyanese people want to embrace their Indian heritage, that part of themselves that’s Indian, that’s their right. However, if they want to turn their backs on their vibrant Caribbean heritage and define themselves as only “Indian”, I think that’s a lie. Why would you want you? Remember: Guyanese people are as welcome at Basement Bhangra as anyone else! And as one handsome young fella there told me when I told him I was Guyanese, “Cool;I’ll teach you how to dance bhangra if you’ll show me how to dance soca.” A sweet deal, I must say….
YOu dumdums. Guyana Indians r true indians. It is orthogonal to discuss opposite of this. What spake such idiocies? But I realize that we freed Guyana. We Indians love the blacks we walk hand and hand with them. What spake you?
im fijian with indian decent aND i believe a carribean indo and a fijian indo would get along well together rather then mixing with indians from india. I have many carribean indo family friends but no india indian friends. its coz we dont blend in together, its like wen we sit around with india indians it’ll be hard for sum of us fijians 2 understand them and hard 4 us 2 reply in a way which they can understand. Carribeans n fijians come from the same situation which i am trying 2 convey. Also if we go out in the society other races will firstly recognise us as an indian. But the funny thing is sum india indians can notice who is from india or not. An indian guy at my uni once asked me wat nash i am n i replied ‘indian’, but then he replied u look fijian.
Truedesi sound more like a “true idiot”. Truedesi has never been to the west indies (guyana, trinidad etc..) you have no clue how our culture is and how we still embrace our indian heritage. you sound so insecure and intimidated by guyanese ppl. the indians in guyana not only have indian blood but are definetly indian to the core my friend. And if anything we have the best of both worlds….being indian and and being immersed into a beautiful rich carribean culture. i feel sorry for you …..you have no clue how fun our culture is. we enjoy life, our music, our family and our roots, plus no outdated ridiculous caste system. Indians in Guyana are no diff than indians in UK, Canada, and so forth. you put us all in one room and other races can’t tell the difference they just see us all as indians…we may be placed in diff areas but we are all still indian. maybe you are jealous of our fun free more westernized lifestyle, i pity you. i love being indian guyanese….and i love being associated with carribean ppl and indian ppl. it is who i am….a “caribeanizzzzzed indian”….so don’t hate , congratulate. peace in the middle east! By the way if you don’t want to be associated with guyanese ppl don’t hang with them ….i’m positive they don’t want to hang with a “uninformed”person like you.
U tell em homez. they jus jealous mo’fo’s. they can not judge on sumfin they dont kno about.
fiji indians rockkk!!! we got —>Hayward<— sf bay on the lockk down
alL I haVe tO saY iZz..I thOuGht alL iNdiaNs wEtHeR fRom InDia,FijI,tHe CariBbeaN, oR whEreVer wERe thE saMe…I dOn’T seE wHy tHeRe haS tO bE aN iSsuE beCuz oF wHeRe yoUr fRom, wE alL loOk tHe saMe aNywaYz. I’m aN iNdiaN frOm dE caRibBeaN bUt I’ve liVed iN Cali-haYwaRd mOst mY liFe..aNd hErE, tHeRe reaLly aRe nO caRibBeaNs. It waSn’T tilL I jOiNed tHe iNdiaN cluB aT mY hIgH scHoOl dAt I fOuneD oUt evEn tHo yOur iNdiaN aNd Ur wIt otHeR iNdiAn pEopLe, yOur stIlL diFferENt beCuz YouR muSlim,hiNdu,puNjabi,fiJian,caNadIan,Or beCuz yoU beLieVe iN thIs oR tHat, oR beCuz U cOver YouR faCe oR hAir, oR beCuz YoU ceLebrAte Dat HolidAy..it gOes On an oN. I’Ve lEaRned It’S aLsO tHe sAmE fOR eVerY raCe…peOpLe sEpeRate tHemsElveS tOo muCh..eVerYoNe waNts tO bE diffErEnt oR beTteR thaN eAcH oThEr. I’M sUrRouNdEd bY eVery kiNda iNdiaN oVa heRe bUt mY owN..I’M alwaYz dE oNly iNdiaN frOm de caRibBeaN iN sChoOl oVa hEre. Dem NevA heaR bOut dIS kiNna inDiaN sO I telL deM boUt it…loL..aNd I’m nOw tHe preSideNt oF thE iNdiaN clUb =]..hehE..I tOle my dAd aNd hE waS likE..”wuT!..u dOn eVeN kNow nUttIn bOut dEez kiNna IndIan oVa heRe..u dOn’t eVen sPeaK hiNdi!”…loL…I waS lIke..”I kNow eNouGh” =]kEeP iT rEaL yalL
[Administrator’s translation: All I have to say izz..I thought all indians wether from india,fiji,the caribbean, or wherever were the same…I don’t see why there has to be an issue becuz of where your from, we all look the same anywayz. I’m an indian from de caribbean but i’ve lived in Cali-hayward most my life..and here, there really are no caribbeans. It wasn’t till I joined the indian club at my high school dat I founed out even tho your indian and Ur wit other indian people, your still different becuz your muslim,hindu,punjabi,fijian,canadian,Or becuz you believe in this or that, or becuz U cover your face or hair, or becuz you celebrate Dat holiday..it goes On an on. I’Ve learned It’S also the same for every race…people seperate themselves too much..everyone wants to be different or better than each other. I’M surrounded by every kinda indian ova here but my own..I’M alwayz de only indian from de caribbean in school ova here. Dem neva hear bout dis kinna indian so I tell dem bout it…lol..and I’m now the president of the indian club =]..hehe..I tole my dad and he was like..”wut!..u don even know nuttin bout deez kinna indian ova here..u don’t even speak hindi!”…lol…I was like..”I know enough” =]keep it real yall]
Wow.
Wow.
How long does that take to type?
children, children…mustn’t fight…however, this debate is refreshing…glad that the question is being addressed…anyone seen ‘bhaji on the beach’ lately? …how the brit-resident ‘indians’ hang onto an idea of the motherland, her morality and preoccupations, that long ago lost favour at home…evolution is a must…g.t.people, embrace who you are…”ayy, wha’ kind of indian r u?” props to krisantha sri bhaggiyadatta…
It seems to me that some of the US indians making comments are being “typically” “indian” in their sense of superiority in being “more” indian than others and putting down others. As a British asian/indian I have travelled to the Caribbean and concluded (generally) that people there were far more “indian” than a lot of the young british asian 2nd and 3rd generation here in UK.
In fact I feel that i had more in common with those indians i met there (trinidad)than I do with some people here in UK. So what does that prove …? firstly these matters are far too complex to be talked of in a black and white way. Secondly, it is probably true to say that those of us living outside of india are able to (if we so choose) to take the “best of both worlds”, and maybe that seems to be difficult for some to comprehend – particularly even for some indians living in the “motherland”
I just wanted to let alot of people know that I am what you say “East Indian” meaning that my parents came directly from India…However I feel a connection with Guyanese people because we do in fact share a common ancestry…To me, I feel as if we are one, no matter what religion you follow. It is fascinating to me to see how the Guyanese people have formed their own culture, by retaining some of it from their ancestors as well as forming their own by adapting to their own world. I have a tremendous amount of love for my Indo-guyanese and indo-trinidadian as well as my indo-fijian brothers and sisters out there.
You know if everyone continues to get upset about who really is Indian. Lets just call the people who live in India indian, and the rest of us mongrels. 🙂
Relevant article on the definition of home by Pico Iyer.
http://www.time.com/time/asia/2005/journey/dalai.html
Enjoy!!
Sumita
I think the trindidadian government should care for Indian-descent trinidadians. I am a Haitian living in the Bahamas and I am married to someone who is a East Indian- descent trinidadian.
u no wot i hav had mny black trinidadian girlfrinds and they accept’d mi as “trinidadian”. I think the cuntry u wer born in is your origin.