43 thoughts on “The controversy surrounding a Sikh deportee”

1. Ms. Melone seems to omit the possibility of the worst possible scenario – that Chetwal is both a criminal of a traditional variety, and supported elements of Sikh militancy, and that conditions in Indian jails are notoriously bad. Or Chetwal could just be a liar. Lying to stay in the U.S. versus returning to an uncertain future in a developing country – not a new story. But this local story does not reflect on either America’s increased heartlessness (more myth than fact) or India’s current ethnic relations (often fractious, sometimes violent).

2. I make no comment on whether his claims are legitimate or not.

   But here are some stats on Indian criminal justice:

   –The conviction rate for prosecutions for violent crimes is 4%. (CSM) The poor prosecution rate gives police a direct motive for torture. –Trials take an average of 10 years to complete. (CSM) –There were 1,300 deaths of prisoners in police custody in 2002 (WP). The number in the late 1980s and early 1990s would have been much higher.

   With statistics like that, I would make the case that he shouldn’t be deported even if he is lying. United States policy is that does not deport people to places where they are likely to be tortured or assasinated.

3. heh. what a hilarious situation. this guy is an illegal alien who overstayed his visa and committed multiple crimes in the US. He should be booted out – good riddance.

   As for amardeep…I’m sorry, man, but india is not a place where prisoners are going to be assassinated. How many prisoners are in the entire prison system in a country of a billion? I doubt the death rate touches even 1% of all prisoners.

   In any case, it’s hardly like the millions of Sikhs in India are all in jail. This is just typical lefty fantasy, where the words of criminals and lawbreakers are taken as gospel and law-abiding citizens are denounced as “unsympathetic” for tuning out the lying whining of a common crook.

4. Did you read the article in the Washington Post I linked to? Numerous human rights groups are cited — many of them located in India. In case you’re too lazy to click through, here are a few paragraphs:

   The case highlights the frequent use of torture and deadly force at local police stations in India, a practice decried by human rights activists and the Indian Supreme Court. A little more than a decade after Parliament established the National Human Rights Commission to deal with such abuses, police torture continues unabated, according to human rights groups and the Supreme Court. According to the latest available government data, there were 1,307 reported deaths in police and judicial custody in India in 2002. “India has the highest number of cases of police torture and custodial deaths among the world’s democracies and the weakest law against torture,” said Ravi Nair, who heads the South Asia Human Rights Documentation Center. “The police often operate in a climate of impunity, where torture is seen as routine police behavior to extract confessions from small pickpockets to political suspects.” He said that laws governing police functions were framed under British colonial rule in 1861 “as an oppressive force designed to keep the population under control.” Police records show that, two weeks before his detention, Rajeev Sharma made a electrician’s service call at the home of a wealthy businessman. On that day, the man reported that $500 worth of gold jewelry and about $100 in cash were missing, police said. After Sharma’s detention, his brother called the police station and was told that Sharma had confessed to the theft, he said. The brother said he and other family members rushed to the station and were able to see Sharma briefly. “His eyes were red, his mouth was bleeding and he could hardly walk. They had beaten him very badly. That was the last glimpse we had,” said Sunil Sharma, 35. “By the evening, the police informed us that he had committed suicide in the lockup by hanging himself with a blanket. The suicide story is a coverup; my brother died of police torture.”

   It’s the Washington Post, not a left-leaning magazine. The government’s own NHRC recognizes that it is a problem. How much more do you need to be convinced?

5. Oh, and gc, is Chattwal really a criminal? The only thing he’s been convicted of is stealing CDs from a Kmart. The rest is two moving violations and a fight he claims was self-defense.

   Hardly hard-core criminal behavior. Millions of people do the equivalent every time they download songs off of KaZaa.

6. Amardeep:

   THe fact is that those “human rights orgs” will write the same vitriolic condemnations of the United States Judicial system. Just read Amnesty International’s press releases once in a while. You’d think the US was a third world country from the rhetoric they use. That said, I think it’s probably true that India has the worst criminal justice system of the world’s democracies.

   But this is a VERY different matter from whether this guy’s fears of being beaten & jailed just for being a Sikh have any legitimacy. Arbitrary persecution on religious grounds is not a typical feature of the Indian state.

   You’re pulling a bait & switch here, because the issue is not the abuses of the Indian criminal system but whether this guy can cite such abuses in his defense. This guy has no leg to stand on – he has no realistic expectation of persecuation back in India. It’s hardly such a hellhole that people are fleeing for their lives. We only grant amnesty to people coming from real dictatorships, like the former USSR or Zimbabwe or what have you.

   a fight he claims was self-defense.

   Yeah, sure. “Self-defense”. Let’s read the court statement. Why do people like you constantly trust criminals over the police? Criminals lie, cheat, and steal. This guy is a repeated law-breaker and an immigration violator to boot. Why exactly do you believe his lies?

7. let me put it another way, amardeep….

   You are refusing to make a political distinction w.r.t. immigration law between flawed democracies like India and outright totalitarian dictatorships like North Korea. Your rationale is that anything short of Sweden is an illegitimate place to deport people to.

   The natural conclusion by your axioms is that the US should be the repository for anyone who can sneak in and cook up an amnesty sob story. The result of such “compassion” is, of course, the blighted urban wasteland that is South Central Los Angeles.

   Heck, if you just blind-quoted Amnesty International’s typically hyperbolic entry about the US without mentioning the country’s name, I’d think about giving myself amnesty from the eeeevil Amerikkkan police state:

   The US-led “war on terror” continued to be waged using indiscriminate and disproportionate means. Hundreds of foreign nationals remained in prolonged indefinite detention without charge or trial in US custody outside the US mainland. Most of those detained as so-called “enemy combatants” were held without any form of judicial process; for a handful, the only way out of their legal black hole appeared to be through grossly unfair trials before military commissions. Authoritative worldwide opinion condemned the blatant disregard for international and US constitutional standards by the USA. Many of the measures taken by the US authorities in the wake of the 11 September 2001 attacks undermined the fabric of international law. Other aspects of US security policy, including the threat in July to cut off military aid to 35 countries for refusing to guarantee US nationals immunity before the International Criminal Court, threatened to have a similarly corrosive effect on the international rule of law… Deteriorating economic and social conditions in Bolivia prompted mass demonstrations, sparked by the signing of coca eradication agreements with the USA… The death penalty continued to be imposed in the USA and Caribbean, and the USA stood in shameful isolation by executing child offenders. In Latin America, Cuba resumed executions and there were occasional proposals to reintroduce the death penalty in response to rising levels of crime… Refugees and migrants escaping conflict and insecurity faced further human rights abuses. Those fleeing the Colombian conflict encountered discrimination and lack of protection in neighbouring countries. Detention and ill-treatment of refugees and migrants from Haiti were reported in the USA, Canada and several Caribbean countries, while countries including Canada, Uruguay and the USA continued to return non-nationals to countries where they were at risk of torture and other violations…

   This sort of vitriolic condemnation of 1st world societies is why these faux nonpartisan “human rights” orgs have no credibility. Cry Wolfowitz one too many times and no one will listen to you. AI is just another amoral arm of transnational progressivism, a group that pushes evil leftist ideology rather than genuine human rights. Example #1 of 10000 is their neo-Communist jihad against free trade:

   The pace of regional and sub-regional economic integration increased, in part due to vigorous efforts by the USA to pursue its trade liberalization agenda through the adoption of multilateral and bilateral free trade agreements. Disagreements over aspects such as agricultural subsidies and anti-dumping policies led a number of governments in the region to mount an increasing challenge to the US free trade agenda. Promoted as a vehicle for alleviating poverty and boosting development, the proposed Free Trade Agreement of the Americas (FTAA) and other similar agreements prompted sceptical and hostile responses from many sectors of civil society wary of their impact on economic, social and cultural rights, including labour rights, access to health and public services, and rights related to the environment. Large demonstrations against the FTAA and agreements with international financial institutions in countries including the Dominican Republic and the USA were met by indiscriminate use of force by police. States of emergency were declared in parts of Peru and Ecuador to contain civil unrest regarding economic policies in the region.

   Given that these people seem not to have learned that hatred of free trade & autarkic communism leads predictably to deprivation and mass murder, you’ll excuse me if I dismiss them as leftist agitators rather than non-partisan commentators on human rights.

   So the bottom line is: I’m sorry, but India is NOT Saudi Arabia, no matter what Amnesty International says. It’s not Sweden either, but the idea that the Indian state is going to jump upon this pooooooor widdle innocent Sikh is too ludicrous for words.

8. Side stepping all of this for a second, so I can remain civil, people might be interested in hearing that Human Rights Watch just came out with an 111 page report on Human Rights violations in Northern Nigeria as a result of Sharia. That’s for those readers who think that Amnesty or HRW never criticize anything in Muslim countries; it’s simply not true.

   (Counting backwards from 100 … )

9. That’s for those readers who think that Amnesty or HRW never criticize anything in Muslim countries; it’s simply not true.

   Simple explanation: blacks are #1 in the leftist hierarchy. Muslims are slightly below them. White straight gentile males are at the very bottom, the most evil oppressors of all. Asian males are a notch above them on the ladder, and only if they’re left-wing.

   Conclusion: any attack by a “lower” group on a “higher” group on the ladder is met with rage by leftists. Thus Muslim-on-black violence in Darfur is worthy of comment b/c blacks are #1. But when Indian cabbies or Korean grocers are attacked by blacks & Hispanics, the leftists will side with the more oppressed group – blacks – rather than the Asians. The same is true for the Jews – if it’s white gentiles attacking them, the left will side with the Jews. But if it’s Muslims, the left will denounce the Jews.

   This victimology ladder can explain virtually all leftist theory, and is often made explicit. Darfur is a perfect example: it makes the news because Muslims are killing blacks, and because the left loves blacks. Furthemore the (neocon) right has made it PC to say some bad things about Muslims, though truth can only be spoken about France’s immigration situation and not (say) South Central’s. Ergo both Instapundit and HRW have an interesting in pushing the Darfur business, for different reasons.

   But the collapse into Stone Age in Zimbabwe doesn’t get the same treatment, because there it was black on white:

   Zimbabwe turns back the clock In this nation that once boasted one of sub-Saharan Africa’s most vibrant economies, things have become so bad that people have taken to telling a wry joke: “What did we have before candles?” The answer: “Electricity.” Four years of turmoil have turned back the clock here. Ambulances are drawn by oxen. Hand-guided cattle plows have replaced farm machinery. The state railroad uses gunpowder charges on the tracks to warn trains of danger ahead. The often-violent seizure of thousands of white-owned farms for reallocation to black Zimbabweans, coupled with erratic rains, has decimated Zimbabwe’s agriculture-based economy.

   You won’t see this getting headlines. This is because it’s very un-PC to suggest the same thing is going to happen in South Africa within the next few years, and we can’t have any non-PC coverage of what South Africa has become in the post-apartheid era, now can we…

10. btw, Ennis, I figured you meant Darfur rather than Sharia in Northern Nigeria, b/c Darfur is at the top of the HRW splash page while their Nigeria page has no link to the 111 page document.

    The specific conflict in Northern Nigeria is interesting, though – it’s a tie breaker in an as yet unobserved situation. We all know that leftists will reflexively side with black non-Muslims over Arab Muslims whether they’re in Darfur (where Arabs are the aggressors) or NYC (where blacks are the aggressors).

    But what about the interesting victimological test case: black non-Muslims vs. black Muslims, as in Nigeria? A priori one would expect “black Muslims” to trump black non-Muslims on the oppression ladder, but I’d have to familiarize myself with the specifics of the HRW document to see why they’ve broken with victimological orthodoxy. It may be that they heavily weight the “oppression of women” component of the debate. I’d have to check it out.

11. Actually, I meant Nigeria. I was just hearing a new story on the report today, on the BBC.

    As for Zim, they’ve been all over that for ages. Trust me, they’re pretty thorough, and not at all PC.

    Well, maybe you wont trust me, but others should …

12. As for Zim, they’ve been all over that for ages. Trust me, they’re pretty thorough, and not at all PC.

    Really? Did they mention that this was an inevitable consequence of signing the country over to Mugabe, and that the same thing is going to happen/happening in South Africa? It will take longer in SA as there are more non-blacks to drive out by rape/murder/robbery, but it’ll happen eventually. I wonder if they mentioned the fact that Mbeki gave Mugabe a king’s welcome and wrote several editorials defending him. That would be un-PC of them to imply that the post-apartheid situation is headed for a collapse. I eagerly await links to courageous citations that don’t shirk from the ethnic dimensions of who is doing what to whom in SA/Zim…but in the meantime, bravo, HRW 🙂

    Also, I’d have to look in detail, but there are about a dozen or two press releases on Zimbabwe in the last 4 years, vs. literally hundreds on the manifest evil that is “AmeriKKKa”.

    I

    I’ve lost track of how many sob-stories have been written about the pooooor Taliban/Al-Qaeda fighters who’re living the good life at Guantanamo. They’re packing on the pounds from all the yummy halal jihadi-approved food we’re giving them…yet HRW has written more articles on the “abuses” at Guantanamo than I can count (I see 45 pages devoted to “AmeriKKKa”).

13. also, btw Ennis…

    I’m not really angry or anything. I hope you know that I’m not mad at you or Amardeep or what have you. I suppose that I can phrase things in a maddeningly loaded way (I try, I try…), but if you want a dispassionate debate we can do that too.

    Premise: HRW and AI are leftists rather than nonpartisan human rights organizations.

    Conclusion: Take what they have to say with a huge grain of salt.

14. HRW grew out of an organization called Helsinki Watch, whose purpose was to monitor human rights violations within the Soviet block. They’re hardly leftists at all. They also have gone head to head with China in a constant fashion, and were after Saddam long before the US was. They were criticizing Sudan a decade ago. The Kurds gave custody of all of the documents they captured from Saddam on human rights violations to HRW, who the published multiple detailed works on the genocide of the kurds by Saddam. They backed up the documents retrieved with interviews and forensic evidence.

    As for being critical of the gitmo process, most of the JAG are as well. Within the military law community, people are appalled. Does that make them all terrorist lovers?

15. Various reports on Zimbabwe. And yes, they bring these issues up with the South African government. Heck, I remember when the head of the Asia division was threatened by the North Koreans. She later left and joined ICG, and was booted out of Indonesia (where she worked for ICG) for saying that Indonesia was too soft on Islamic terror groups. Her report on that subject was the best study anybody had, and was closely read in DC.

    Again, these aren’t people who apologize or tolerate terror, even as they are highly critical of state violations as well.

    It might be a hard concept, but … some of them are … libertarians.

16. Various reports on Zimbabwe. And yes, they bring these issues up with the South African government. Heck, I remember when the head of the Asia division was threatened by the North Koreans. She later left and joined ICG, and was booted out of Indonesia (where she worked for ICG) for saying that Indonesia was too soft on Islamic terror groups. Her report on that subject was the best study anybody had, and was closely read in DC.

    Again, these aren’t people who apologize or tolerate terror, even as they are highly critical of state violations as well.

    It might be a hard concept, but … some of them are … libertarians.

17. GC,

    Why are you harping on Black people? Please keep your anti-Black sentiments out of a discussion about a Sikh Indian.

    Ms. World 2004

18. Article on the Sharia report. I can’t see it on the site either. Sometimes they only release the larger reports in hardcopy, so that may be the case here.

19. uh, ok, “Ms. World”…like most people who sling around casual accusations of bigotry, you don’t actually have any facts on your side…but tell ya what.

    You help me deport criminal illegal aliens out of the US, and I’ll contribute to the newsmedia blackout of Zim/SA in this thread. Deal? 🙂

    Ennis:

    I linked to the Zimbabwe HRW page myself above…and pointed out that they devote far more real estate – 45 pages and hundreds of press releases – to the supposed epidemic of human rights abuses in the USA.

    The point I’m making is that their venomous criticism of first world societies, capitalism, free trade, and the like makes me tune them out. Cry wolf one too many times (like Amardeep has done in this thread – yeah India is sooooo bad that we can’t deport people there!) and people will refuse to listen to you.

    When HRW runs more articles on genuine human rights violations in the Muslim world, Africa, Burma, etc. than they do on the US, I’ll start paying attention. Until then their work has to be taken with a huge grain of salt.

    It reminds of that recent report on press freedom by “Journalists without Borders” that blasted press freedom in the US and Israel while elevating European nations into bastions of press freedom. These same European nations, of course, have “hate crimes” laws that allow the authorities to throw you in jail for whatever they consider “hate speech”…exhibit A being Bridget Bardot, exhibit B being Oriana Fallaci, and I could go on & on.

    The point is that the US is not a human rights abuser, and their myopic focus on the pooooor Taliban/Al Qaeda detainees at Guantanamo indicates just how hateful & inverted their morality is.

    Even the articles they do run on human rights in those countries usually have a leftist spin, in that they slam the US and/or the UN for not intervening…as if it’s our fault that these guys are killing each other. Of course, if we did intervene, our troops would have to kill some people, and then they’d slam us for intervening.

20. Ennis:

    Here’s yet another example. Look at HRW’s page for South Africa. Totally PC jibber-jabber about retrovirals and AIDS. Nothing about the ethnic dimensions: who is doing the raping, murdering, and robbery over there?

    One almanac recently described South Africa as “the world’s most dangerous country” outside official war zones. In the last decade murder, rape, and robbery rates have all doubled. According to official statistics for 1997, South Africa had 63 murders and 134 rapes per 100,000 people, compared to seven murders and 36 rapes in the United States. There were 258 car thefts per 100,000 South Africans, 866 house-breakings, and 601 assaults. Appalling as these numbers are, they probably understate the crime problem substantially, since polls indicate that most South Africans do not trust the police. A 1997 survey by the Human Sciences Research Council, a quasi-government agency, found that about one-fifth of crime victims do not contact police.

    Why is there an exodus of skilled professionals? HRW has the predictable attacks on SA for being homophobic and – get this – racist against blacks!

    South Africa: Racism Plagues Response to Rural Crime The South African government is failing to adequately protect residents of commercial farming areas from violent crime, Human Rights Watch charged in a report released today. Black farm residents are most severely affected by this failure, and black women are most vulnerable of all, Human Rights Watch said.

    Yup. Racism against blacks…clearly the biggest problem in SA today! This is exactly what I mean about HRW being leftist pawns rather than genuine agents for human rights. They may raise a voice once Mandela dies and Mbeki turns the state on the poor non-black guys remaining (both white and Indian), but by then it’ll be too little, too late…and nothing compared to the anti-apartheid outcry in the first place.

21. GC,

    Good day to you! I’m on my way to bed. It’s 1am in Tokyo and I have to get some sleep so I can work like the Japanese-all day with enthusiasm.

    Anyway, I’ll be very quick about this. I’m not making some “casual” accusation about bigotry. I don’t know your personal politics and I really don’t care about them as long as you aren’t running for president of the U.S. And I am a well-educated and extremely-well travelled Black American woman who a diverse array of skills which means I won’t be asking you or any of your brethen for a job 😉 I simply thought it was very interesting how the dialogue about Mr. Chattwal’s case veered into a weird anti-leftist tirade. I love it when desis get all twisted up in the game and show their true strips.

    There isn’t really a blackout on events in South Africa or Zimbabwe. We all know that Zimbabwe is a mess and Mugabe is a thug. What’s new? South Africa isn’t paradise either. Black South Africans tend to feel little love for their South Asian (South African) brethen. The crime is rampant and a lot of it is Black on Black crime. And the non-Black South Africans are longing for the days of apartheid police security. What’s new?

    Regarding the facts not being on my side. Whose facts are we talking about? I think we are all smart enough to know that we should recheck our sources and do a little independent research (and I don’t mean hit the search button on Google). I’m a journalist and I don’t trust anyone except my mother and a few dear relatives. Is Mr. Chattwal a criminal illegal alien? I don’t know. I would have to sit down and talk to him in person and check out the documents myself. But I do believe that India isn’t the paradise sometimes made out to be by its diaspora children. And I have a feeling that being a Sikh in the wrong place at the wrong time may be like being brown, Arab, or a Muslim in the wrong place at the wrong time in the lovely land called America.

    I’m done. And I really am Ms. World. I’m also Ms. Black India but that’s another story!

    Peace out to the Desis!

22. I simply thought it was very interesting how the dialogue about Mr. Chattwal’s case veered into a weird anti-leftist tirade.

    Ms. World, possibly being a new reader to SepiaMutiny you must be unaware that ALL of GC’s comments turn into anti-leftist tirades. There could be a post about chocolate cake, but GC would manage to turn it into an anti-leftist tirade somehow. That is what he does. I find it oddly comforting. Its like the creak in the floor that you always expect to be there but you step across the floor anyways ignoring it for its irrelevance. Can you imagine how furious he would be before going to bed each night if he had not unleashed at least one anti-leftist tirade. Please try to be fair Ms. World. Nobody should have to go to bed angry.

23. Why does Godlesscapitalist dislike human rights activists? Some of them make exaggerated claims, but most of them are legitimately concerned with real human rights abuses that occur around the world. Human rights activists have played an important role in fighting for the basic rights all human beings should have and should be praised for their work.

    If it’s possible that this Sikh man will have his human rights violated if he’s deported, we should at least investigate his claim. Godlesscapitalist’s suggestion that we deport him is ridiculous.

    I’ve read his posts on GNXP. Godlesscapitalist seems to believe that Africans have very low IQs and are incapable of making any progress. He seems to believe it’s inevitable that all nations populated by Africans will collapse and become chaotic. He ignores prosperous nations like Jamaica, Bostwana, and the Bahamas that are populated mostly by Africans.

    He also believes that Asians are inherently far more intelligent than everybody else. He once made a ridiculous post that the illiterate “Hmong” refugees from southeast Asia would probably surpass whites in income just because they were Asian. He seems to have ignored news reports about the high dropout rates, gang violence, prostitution, extremely low college graduation rates, and other problems in their community.

    It seems that Godlesscapitalist is unfortunately a believer in the the discriminative thinking that is expressed on the site http://www.amren.com

24. I do think that Godlesscapitalist makes legimitate arguments about human rights activists sometimes exaggerating their claims, the media ignoring racial violence committed by blacks, and the possibility that the Sikh man is lying.

    However, he ignores legimitate arugments made by liberals.

    He ignores that Africans were oppressed under apartheid, many human rights violations do take place around the world, and human rights organizations do more good than harm.

25. Dear PMC,

    Regarding the idea that the media ignores racial violence committed by Black people in America. How about this idea- They (American media) ignore it because they dont care about it (unless its a particularly brutal event)! I love Black people but we arent perfect but no one is including Desis. But I have digressed which is the norm here. In America media land, if it doesnt involve white people-its not as important. We are all smart people so we know that media outlets tend to have agendas (even the venerated New York Times) and I dont think there agenda is too concerned with reporting about South Asian Americans (unfortunately). Thank God for India Abroad 😉

    I`ve said enough. I wish you all well in the homeland.

    Ms World

26. Godlesscapitalist seems to believe that Africans have very low IQs and are incapable of making any progress.

    Strawman. First, IQ differences don’t mean a lack of any progress. Second, it’s not my “belief”… mean IQ differences between groups are a scientific fact and have been documented by literally thousands of researchers, including people at Harvard, UCLA, Berkeley, etc. The cause of the differences is what’s in question – i.e. genetic, cultural, both, etc.

    But you can’t acknowledge that or rebut on the facts, right?

    He seems to believe it’s inevitable that all nations populated by Africans will collapse and become chaotic. He ignores prosperous nations like Jamaica, Bostwana, and the Bahamas that are populated mostly by Africans.

    Another strawman. We did not ignore it. You must have missed my post on Botswana. Short response: it is built on a diamond mine and its wealth is entirely due to diamonds. It also has the world’s highest AIDS rates. It is not an industrialized country.

    As for the Bahamas, it was built by the UK, got independence in 1973, and has an economy entirely dependent on tourism:

    The Bahamas is a stable, developing nation with an economy heavily dependent on tourism and offshore banking. Tourism alone accounts for more than 60% of GDP and directly or indirectly employs half of the archipelago’s labor force. Steady growth in tourism receipts and a boom in construction of new hotels, resorts, and residences had led to solid GDP growth in recent years, but the slowdown in the US economy and the attacks of 11 September 2001 held back growth in these sectors in 2001-03. Financial services constitute the second-most important sector of the Bahamian economy, accounting for about 15% of GDP. However, since December 2000, when the government enacted new regulations on the financial sector, many international businesses have left The Bahamas. Manufacturing and agriculture together contribute approximately a tenth of GDP and show little growth, despite government incentives aimed at those sectors. Overall growth prospects in the short run rest heavily on the fortunes of the tourism sector, which depends on growth in the US, the source of more than 80% of the visitors. In addition to tourism and banking, the government supports the development of a “third pillar,” e-commerce.

    Like Botswana, its prosperity is entirely dependent upon natural resources (namely sunshine). It has no native manufacturing or tech to speak of. So how exactly are these countries shining African Singapores? As for Jamaica – well, GDP per capita there is only $3800, and the place is pretty chaotic. Hardly a success story.

    Jamaica gained full independence within the British Commonwealth in 1962.Deteriorating economic conditions during the 1970s led to recurrent violence and a drop off in tourism. Elections in 1980 saw the democratic socialists voted out of office. Political violence marred elections during the 1990s. The ratio of debt to GDP is close to 150%. Inflation, previously a bright spot, is expected to remain in the double digits. Depressed economic conditions have led to increased civil unrest, including gang violence fueled by the drug trade. In 2004, the government faces the difficult prospect of having to achieve fiscal discipline in order to maintain debt payments while simultaneously attacking a serious and growing crime problem that is hampering economic growth.

    Ok, next…

    He also believes that Asians are inherently far more intelligent than everybody else.

    You must have problems with reading comprehension. East Asians have a measured mean IQ above whites – about 1/3 of an SD, but not far above them.

    He once made a ridiculous post that the illiterate “Hmong” refugees from southeast Asia would probably surpass whites in income just because they were Asian. He seems to have ignored news reports about the high dropout rates, gang violence, prostitution, extremely low college graduation rates, and other problems in their community.

    You seem to have ignored the actual facts about the Hmong, and the fact that EXACTLY THE SAME JUMP from refugee to above-white income levels happened with the Vietnamese:

    SPENCER MICHELS: Like the Trans, many of the Vietnamese have escaped the poverty of their arrival. Since 1983, nationwide, 58% of Vietnamese entered the workforce, slightly higher than for other refugee groups. Since 1980, the median income of Vietnamese Americans has jumped ahead of the national average. The success of Vietnamese families has amazed people like Alette Lundeberg, who manages refugee programs for Santa Clara County, California, home to nearly 100,000 Vietnamese Americans.

    Here’s the Hmong data:

    The U.S. Census has released long-awaited national level socioeconomic and educational 2000 census data for Hmong in the United States (Summary File 4). This is the first new national-level data that has been available related to these variables in a decade. The following are highlights from this data set. The comparable 1990 figure is in parentheses. Data used are for “Hmong alone” responses on the census form. U.S. Hmong Median Family Income 2000 – $32,076 ($14,300) % U.S. Hmong with Public Assistance Income in 2000 – 30.3% (67%) % U.S. Hmong Families Below the Poverty Level in 2000 – 34.8% (62%) % U.S. Hmong Population in Owner Occupied Housing in 2000 – 40.0% (13.0) A significant upward trend. Note the staggering drops in poverty level coupled with the tremendous increases in housing and median income. Note also: this would not have been predicted by either the h-bd deniers or the paleocons at VDare.

    Finally, I have nothing in common with VDare & AmRen & have in fact actively blasted them in the past. As I pointed out above, leftists like Thrupkaew and yourself and paleos like VDare would both have – wrongly – written off the Hmong for different reasons.

    Bottom line: PMC, if you’d actually make your points to my face rather than falsely strawmanning them to others it’d be much appreciated. It would also be nice if you actually presented links or evidence…

27. Lost:

    Hey, aren’t you the paranoid ideologue still trying to blame the memo thing on Karl Rove? So tell me again who’s the obsessive ’round these parts? 🙂

    “Ms. World”:

    I do believe that India isn’t the paradise sometimes made out to be by its diaspora children

    I agree 100%. There is a reason our parents came over from India – it’s not a very nice place to live, especially when there are institutional quotas against you.

    I simply thought it was very interesting how the dialogue about Mr. Chattwal’s case veered into a weird anti-leftist tirade.

    It was perfectly relevant in context. If you see above, it wasn’t me who launched this tangent – Amardeep did with his bogus argument about how India was SUCH a hellhole that we couldn’t deport this criminal alien there. As if it were North Korea and they’d execute Chatwal right as he walked off the plane.

    This naturally segued into a discussion of why most of the HRW and AI work that Amardeep cited is like that of the UN…like many of the most insidiously leftist things, they talk a big non-partisan/save-the-world game while actually promoting far-left, anti-capitalist, anti-American ideology (see for ex. above quoted anti-free trade jihad by HRW).

    Ripping off that facade of objectivity requires examples. A lot of people are naive and take statements at face value. If bad guys say that they’re “working for human rights” or part of “Hamas’ charity wing” , many gullible people may actually believe that they’re good guys. In fact, they may think you are a bad guy if you point out that the UN is run by thugs and dictators (for ex., Angola, North Korea, Burma, and Tajikistan are not nice countries…and they are characteristic of much of the world.)

    The HRW guys reveal their true colors by spending all their time slamming the USA in the most harsh, vitriolic terms (45 pages with thousands of anti-American press releases!!) while keeping a relative blackout of the far worse human rights violations going on in other parts of the world for PC reasons – as demo’d exhaustively on this thread, e.g. with black-on-white state-abetted murder in South Africa/Zim.

28. However, he ignores legimitate arugments made by liberals. He ignores that Africans were oppressed under apartheid, many human rights violations do take place around the world, and human rights organizations do more good than harm.

    PMC:

    You and I have vast philosophical differences. I would ask…

    1) Why does South Africa have the best infrastructure on the African continent? Why did Zimbabwe have the second best?

    2) Who do you think did more for human rights – American soldiers fighting communism or hippies who think communism was just great? Jane Fonda is typical: “I would think that if you understood what Communism was, you would hope, you would pray on your knees, that we would someday become communists.” — Michigan State University, 1970

    So riddle me that, Batman? Who actually did more for, say, human rights in Afghanistan? Whining leftists and feminists? Or the soldiers who kicked Taliban ass?

    I note that the same feminists who bashed the US for the existence of the Taliban before 9/11 then whined about our response to 9/11 and are now whining about the poooooor Taliban/Al Qaeda detainees at Guantanamo (the ones who’ve gained 13 pounds, as noted above). Can’t win with this people – which is why I have such an abiding distaste for them. Morality is cheap when you are a self-styled “human rights” activist who lectures rich countries on their evils.

    I’d have much more respect for these guys if they tried lecturing Palestinian suicide bombers, South African blacks in the tribal areas, or North Koreans at the 39th parallel on just how bad the human rights violations were in their country. Then at least their insufferable pretense of moral superiority would come at some cost…not least because they’d likely die if they tried that shit with people with less infinite a well of patience and forebearance for abuse than the Americans.

29. “Strawman. First, IQ differences don’t mean a lack of any progress. Second, it’s not my “belief”… mean IQ differences between groups are a scientific fact and have been documented by literally thousands of researchers, including people at Harvard, UCLA, Berkeley, etc. The cause of the differences is what’s in question – i.e. genetic, cultural, both, etc.

    But you can’t acknowledge that or rebut on the facts, right?”

    I don’t deny that there probably are IQ differences between populations that may have some genetic basis. However, I think many people underestimate the IQs of Africans.

    African-Americans have function reasonably well in the United States. There are areas of this country with large concentrations of successful and educated African-Americans. I think it’s ridiculous to presume that they’re incapable of making progress and even creating a successful nation.

    “You must have missed my post on Botswana. Short response: it is built on a diamond mine and its wealth is entirely due to diamonds. It also has the world’s highest AIDS rates. It is not an industrialized country.”

    Its wealth isn’t “entirely” due to diamonds. 36% of its wealth is due to mining. There is also a large tourist sector.

    While I certainly wouldn’t compare Bostwana to Singapore or Hong Kong, it’s a reasonably successful nation. It has done an excellent job attracting foreign investment, pursued economic and social policies that have brought benefits to much of the population, maintained uninterrupted civilian rule since 1966, protected the environment, and diversified its economy to include a growing tourism sector.

    I agree the AIDS rates are worrying.

    ” As for the Bahamas, it was built by the UK, got independence in 1973, and has an economy entirely dependent on tourism: “

    Didn’t the British have a role in building Hong Kong and Singapore? Didn’t the Japanese have a role in building Taiwan?

    Marutius (27% African) is considered successful by analysts for attracting foreign investment and tourism. Why can’t the Bahamas and Bostwana be considered successful for doing similarly well?

    “As for Jamaica – well, GDP per capita there is only $3800, and the place is pretty chaotic. Hardly a success story. “

    Admittedly that was not a good example.

    ” EXACTLY THE SAME JUMP from refugee to above-white income levels happened with the Vietnamese:”

    Most of these Vietnamese refugees were apart of Vietnam’s well-educated and wealthy elite that is Chinese in origin. They were forced to flee their nation by Communists. Is it surprising that the elite of any country would do well in America?

    Furthermore, anybody that has visited California is aware of the huge problem of gangs and drugs in the Vietnamese community. This problem of gangs, violence, and drugs is evident in the Vietnamese community in Australia. Many people that dislike foreigners blame these Vietnamese for their problems without realizing the discrimination the Vietnamese experience every day. These people don’t realize that the Vietnamese need community support and more help from the government to solve these problems.

    The Vietnamese are similar to African-Americans in many ways. Unfortunately both groups have to face a hostile society that won’t fund government programs for them, won’t stop holding unfair stereotypes, and won’t stop discriminating against them.

    ” A significant upward trend. Note the staggering drops in poverty level coupled with the tremendous increases in housing and median income. Note also: this would not have been predicted by either the h-bd deniers or the paleocons at VDare. “

    They’ve made progress in this country with tremendous assistance from the federal government. A few have entered the middle-class, but most work in low-wage jobs.

    Even with the progress they’ve made, they continue to face difficulties in our country. They have high dropout rates from school, a lot gang violence, high suicide rates, and difficulty learning English.

    I read several articles by columnist Joe Guzzardi. He teaches English to Hmong students and has a lot of knowledge on the issue.

    Here are his statements:

    “Because the Hmong only developed a written language during the last few decades, learning English has been practically impossible for adults. IÂ’ve had students who attended class for several years but never got beyond the stage of crudely copying block letters into their binders. “

    ” And Hmong teenage children have had a terrible go of it. The kids have no interest in sitting around the house to listen to tales about the good old days in the mountains of Laos. In fact, the ones I know cannot point to Laos on a globe. So some of the girls – often as young as 13 – elope.”

    “The young rebellious boys join gangs.”

    “The class finally came to an end in the mid-1990s. Welfare reform shifted the emphasis from education to employment. And my students went off into the real world not knowing any more English than the day they enrolled. “

    Here’s some interesting data I found.

    ” According to the 2000 census report… 1.5 percent of Hmong women have bachelorÂ’s degrees and 2.6 percent of the men do. “

    Also, many of the younger kids don’t appear to have the desire to succeed. Hovernment programs might be neccessary to motivate them.

    “University of Wisconsin-Green Bay professor Ray Hutchison said changing educational goals are typical in immigrant populations.

    While the expectations and pressure to succeed are felt strongly by first-generation students, second- and third-generation students are more likely to behave and think more like any other American students. And to Hutchison, thatÂ’s unfortunate, at least in one sense.

    He said studentsÂ’ changing ideas and Americanized attitudes sometimes include a devaluing of education and fewer expectations of college.

    ‘The educational goals are not as high, he said.”

    ” According to my personal conversation with Dr. Seree Weroha, Education Consultant at WI Department of Public Instruction, he mentioned that approximately 75% of Hmong youths did not complete high school. These youths either could not complete the requirements, get themselves into trouble, or dropt out. The causes of high drop out rates might have to do with several different factors, such as lack of social capital (personal caring relationships between parents and children), support and motivation by parents. “

    It seems they have problems like any other group.

    “Finally, I have nothing in common with VDare & AmRen & have in fact actively blasted them in the past. As I pointed out above, leftists like Thrupkaew and yourself and paleos like VDare would both have – wrongly – written off the Hmong for different reasons.”

    I think every racial group is capable of making progress. I think it’s unlikely for every group to make equal progress, but it’s possible for every group to succeed.

30. “PMC:

    You and I have vast philosophical differences. I would ask…”

    I agree. Of course I agree with some of what you have to say.

    “1) Why does South Africa have the best infrastructure on the African continent? Why did Zimbabwe have the second best?”

    The whites built the infrastructure with the help of Africans and Indians. Their knowledge, skills, and capital helped them facilitate and manage many different projects.

    However, Africans were often completely excluded from the good public facilities and neglected by the government. The whites obtained most of the benefits.

    South Africa and Zimbabwe could’ve been more egalitarian like Marutius, the Bahmas, or Bostwana.

    Unfortunately the Africans are now taking revenge on the whites. I completely condemn this.

    “2) Who do you think did more for human rights – American soldiers fighting communism or hippies who think communism was just great? Jane Fonda is typical: “I would think that if you understood what Communism was, you would hope, you would pray on your knees, that we would someday become communists.” — Michigan State University, 1970″

    I don’t agree with pro-Communist sentiments. The Communists murdered millions of people and were tyrannical. I don’t see how anyone can sympathize with Communism. Anybody that supports Communism is NOT a genuine human rights activist.

    I think sending troops to Vietnam was well-intentioned, but not a good idea. We ended up losing a large number of troops and became divided as a nation.

    “So riddle me that, Batman? Who actually did more for, say, human rights in Afghanistan? Whining leftists and feminists? Or the soldiers who kicked Taliban ass?”

    Almost every Democrat supported the war with Afghanistan. Howard Dean, John Kerry, Richard Gephardt, John Edwards, Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Jesse Jackson, and Ted Kennedy were pro-war. These people supported the war because the Taliban was supporting murderous terrorists. They also supported the war because the Taliban violated the rights of women, non-Muslims, and political supports.

    I didn’t say that our soldiers didn’t do anything for human rights. I respect our soldiers and the role they play in building democracy across the world. Our soldiers helped build democracy in Japan, Italy, and Germany after WWII. I’m personally a patriotic liberal like John Kennedy.

    However, do not ignore the role of human rights activists in Afghanistan. They’re helping women in Afghanistan to become educated and succeed. They’ve also done a lot to encourage democracy. They want Afghanistan to become a successful nation that becomes an example for the rest of the Middle East.

    “I note that the same feminists who bashed the US for the existence of the Taliban before 9/11 then whined about our response to 9/11 and are now whining about the poooooor Taliban/Al Qaeda detainees at Guantanamo (the ones who’ve gained 13 pounds, as noted above). Can’t win with this people – which is why I have such an abiding distaste for them. Morality is cheap when you are a self-styled “human rights” activist who lectures rich countries on their evils.

    I’d have much more respect for these guys if they tried lecturing Palestinian suicide bombers, South African blacks in the tribal areas, or North Koreans at the 39th parallel on just how bad the human rights violations were in their country. Then at least their insufferable pretense of moral superiority would come at some cost…not least because they’d likely die if they tried that shit with people with less infinite a well of patience and forebearance for abuse than the Americans.”

    I actually agree with much of what you have to say. I do think that sometimes human rights activists sometimes have unneccessary concerns.

    However, do they do far more good around the world than harm. They’ve done a lot of good in bringing attention to the situation in Sudan.

31. PMC:

    Huh, I’m kinda surprised – you’re more reasonable than I thought you were. I could go point by point, but you agree with me on the major things. To quote you:

    I don’t deny that there probably are IQ differences between populations that may have some genetic basis. However, I think many people underestimate the IQs of Africans. I think every racial group is capable of making progress. I think it’s unlikely for every group to make equal progress, but it’s possible for every group to succeed. I don’t agree with pro-Communist sentiments. The Communists murdered millions of people and were tyrannical. I don’t see how anyone can sympathize with Communism. Anybody that supports Communism is NOT a genuine human rights activist.

    Depends what you mean by “succeed”, of course…

    But I’m a bit puzzled…my main annoyance was that you initially misrepresented my arguments as simpleminded, nonfactual outbursts when you knew they were more complex (as this follow-up reveals). Heck, you agree with the key points – namely that IQ has a neurogenetic basis, that it’s important, that it’s not equally distributed, and that Blank Slatism/Communism is bad. Everything else is just arguing about epsilons.

    And you have to admit that I presented a TON of data on this stuff from different angles for my POV – including Thompson and Gray on IQ, for example.

    Ok, well, let me take just this one point (if you want i can treat all of them, but life is short)…

    African-Americans have function reasonably well in the United States. There are areas of this country with large concentrations of successful and educated African-Americans.

    Here’s a challenge: I’d like you to name the top 5 areas in the US with a high – let’s say 60%-plus – African-American population that are nice places to live. Use the city compare tool here.

    I want to see 5 places in the US with greater than 60% African-American populations that have crime rates below the national average. If you can’t get 60%, just find as high a number as possible. Just to get you started, there is one county on the Eastern seaboard with a black elite (in Maryland, I think) which would probably be #1 on the list…but I can’t remember the name of it.

    I don’t think you will find five such places, but perhaps you can surprise me.

32. Oh my, I’ve been sucked into the “hatrix”! You desis are funny.

    GC- Now you are issuing homework assignments! You aren’t president of the U.S., so the anti-Black sentiment is fine. African Americans, Black people, people of African descent (so many names) will survive and thrive.

    I do have a question for you, GC. There are no large populations of Black people in India-so why is poverty still rampant in your motherland? And I know their are extremely rich Indians but there more poor ones.

    Did you know that crime rates are rising in Japan? But there are so few people of African descent living here that they can’t blame it on us. Poor Japanese! According to popular Japanese thought, Koreans and Chinese living in Japan are responsible rising crimes. Who knew you could have crime without a significant Black population! Maybe the Chinese and Koreans are secretly Black 😉

    There will be no homework for me though. I’m off to plan my Southeast Asian winter holiday fantasia. Ko Samui & Angkor Wat here I come!

33. I do have a question for you, GC. There are no large populations of Black people in India-so why is poverty still rampant in your motherland?

    Because there are a lot of dumb Indians. I’m not particularly up on India myself – see for example here.

    African Americans, Black people, people of African descent (so many names) will survive and thrive.

    Of course they will. Who said anything to the contrary? PMC made a statement about there being “lots” of communities with high concentrations of Af-Ams that are nice places to live. I asked him to name some that have objectively quantifiable metrics – e.g. mean income, crime rate, etc. – to prove his thesis.

    What’s wrong with asking him to establish the truth value of his statement?

34. out of curiosity, gc, what do you think of communism as it existed in kerala? obviously, the stagnant economy proves that it wasn’t entirely successful, but the literacy rate, infant mortality, and life expectancy mean something, right?

    i’m not a proponent of communism, just would like to hear your thoughts on it. in fact, like many i know, i lack identification w/ any existent political party, though i vote democrat. i would like to say i subscribe to libertarianism, but unfortunately can’t resolve it w/ my belief that people are inherently self-centered and, for lack of a better term, evil. really, i’m an optimist.

35. spectator:

    what do you think of communism as it existed in kerala

    The only reason Kerala didn’t become a gulag is because Communists hadn’t taken over the country. Similarly, the only reason France didn’t go down the path of East Germany (complete with secret police, forced abortions, and a prison-state that shot anyone who tried to escape over the Berlin Wall) was that the Communists only got 30% or so in the elections.

    When it takes over a society, communism leads to poverty and mass murder with probability 1. Remember, communism is about the elimination of private property. Every single thing you’ve ever worked for can be seized by the state at will, including the very shirt off your back. Communism is about guys with guns storming into your house, stealing everything you have, and carting you off to a slave labor camp to work for the “collective”.

    just would like to hear your thoughts on it

    My thoughts on it are in this post. The following books have also been very influential:

    1. The Black Book of Communism: documents the 100 million dead.
    2. The Gulag Archipelago: a personal account of the horrors of communism, much like the Diary of Anne Frank.

    Bottom line for me: Communism killed many more people than Nazism, but Communist Holocaust denial is still prevalent in academe & the media. Usually they will say that the Communists “meant well”…yet the same defense is not extended to, say, the Spanish Inquisition. This has all kinds of consequences, not least the Blank Slate Asymmetry: the idea that man can be blasted clean and remade by ideology. As I said in that post:

    In the 20th century, the singleminded pursuit of a classless society consistently and inevitably ran headlong into the brick wall of human nature and human hereditary inequality. Humans are not identical clones whose only desire is to serve the collective. They cannot be denuded of homes & property, culture & family, and religion & tradition without consequence – or without force. Thus, the idea that man is just a stone slate to be blasted clean and remade by ideology lead inexorably to the idea that human scruple – rather than human nature – is the only barrier between our imperfect world and an earthly utopia. Those who wished to create these earthbound utopias decided that it was better to abandon restraint and employ unlimited force than to accept that some human attributes were resistant to change. The result was unending calamity in the 20th century.

    We are still dealing with the fallout from neo-Communists who still denounce capitalism and refuse to learn the lessons of the 20th century.

36. btw, just saw this and thought it was relevant. Note who’s saying this!:

    Africa ‘better in colonial times’ The average African is worse off now than during the colonial era, the brother of South Africa’s President Thabo Mbeki has said. Moeletsi Mbeki accused African elites of stealing money and keeping it abroad, while colonial rulers planted crops and built roads and cities. “This is one of the depressing features of Africa,” he said. He said that while China had lifted some 400 [million] people out of poverty in the past 20 years, Nigeria had pushed 71 million people below the poverty line… In July, a United Nations report said that Africa was the only continent where poverty had increased in the past 20 years…

    So tell me again how I’m “all wrong” about Africa, PMC? Btw, this is why I roll my eyes when people talk about how colonialism “set Africa back”. The most developed countries in Africa (Zimbabwe, SA, etc.) are the ones in which the whites stayed longest.

37. kerala could not have become a gulag – communism was democratically elected. it can’t be directly compared to a dictatorship. the leftist parties greatly contributed to educational opportunities, accessible healthcare and successful land reform. unfortunately, they didn’t encourage commerce and are now left as a poor state (when talking about economic, not standard-of-living indicators). redistributive social justice systems worked for them to a point; it just seems there has to be something to learn from that.

    and i completely disagree w/ your views on africa – again, comparing an african ex-colony w/ china is not a fair comparison. you can’t even compare it to colonized india. but i’ll get to it later.

38. PMC:

    “Depends what you mean by “succeed”, of course…”

    It’s certainly a subjective term. By “succeed” I mean enter the labor force, have your children complete school, send some community members to college, learn the local language, and participate in society. Blacks have managed to do this after centuries of oppression and discrimination.

    “But I’m a bit puzzled…my main annoyance was that you initially misrepresented my arguments as simpleminded, nonfactual outbursts when you knew they were more complex (as this follow-up reveals). Heck, you agree with the key points – namely that IQ has a neurogenetic basis, that it’s important, that it’s not equally distributed, and that Blank Slatism/Communism is bad. Everything else is just arguing about epsilons.”

    I only read your posts occasionally on GNXP. Some of your posts seemed to be reasonable to me, but others were not. I remember reading posts where you were quite skeptical that Africans could ever build successful nations and even seemed to suggest that South Africa shouldn’t have abolished apartheid. You made other posts complaining about an overrepresentation of black doctors on ER. I also remember some posts where you suggested that government programs were unneccessary and that Asian immigrants would certainly always succeed due to their genetics.

    Today I looked up some of your old posts in the archives that criticize “American Renaissance” and other racists. Viewing these post has made me realize that I admittedly was wrong to accuse you of supporting highly discriminative views.

    However, I think you don’t realize the centuries of oppression and discrimination that African-Americans and other racial minorities faced. You rely too much on racial explanations for their behavior rather than cultural explanations. You also don’t realize that the government has been instrumental in helping minorities to succeed. It has helped African-Americans to succeed. It’s now helping the Hmong to succeed.

    “And you have to admit that I presented a TON of data on this stuff from different angles for my POV – including Thompson and Gray on IQ, for example.”

    I’ll concede that there’s substanial evidence to suggest a genetic basis for racial differences in IQ. However, all racial groups are probably intelligent enough to succeed if they’re given assistance.

    “Here’s a challenge: I’d like you to name the top 5 areas in the US with a high – let’s say 60%-plus – African-American population that are nice places to live. Use the city compare tool here.”

    I’ve talked to some people that live in areas with high concentrations of African-Americans. I’m not sure of the exact proportions of African-Americans in their areas, but they do constitute a large minority. These areas were described to me as being pleasant upper-class communities where the different races get along well.

    1.) The Washington D.C. suburbs 2.) Rolling Oaks 3.) Brook Glen 4.) Panola Mill 5.) Wyndham Park 6.) Shaker Heights 7.) Columbia

    “I want to see 5 places in the US with greater than 60% African-American populations that have crime rates below the national average.”

    Crime rates are generally high in black areas. The inhumane treatment black slaves received, the destruction of their families by the slave owners, centuries of discrimination, negative stereotypes, and an unfortunate street culture theat glorifies violence contributes a lot to their high crime rates.

    The Vietnamese and Hmong also have high crime rates in their communities. If someone thought crime rates depended entirely on race, they’d be surprised to see the crime problems that these communities face. If someone realized that discrimination and inequality in society can force people into crime, they wouldn’t be surprised.

39. The Hmong may have even been very undercounted during the 2000 Census. This unfortunately probably has resulted in their community not getting the resources neccessary for them to fully succeed in this country and stay out of crime. Of course racists will probably just blame these people for their community problems and insist that they shouldn’t get more help.

    “Ilean Her, executive director of the state Council on Asian Pacific Minnesotans, said the census could have missed thousands of Hmong despite efforts to increase census participation. She said that while the language barrier may have kept some from filling out forms, others — skeptical that the data would be kept confidential — may have been reluctant to disclose extended families or second wives and sets of children living under one roof with their own family.”

    http://www.sacbee.com/content/news/story/8235325p-9166245c.html

    ” As bad as life is in Thailand, it does have some advantages, Xiong said.

    ‘One of the fears is that Hmong in America are losing their culture,’ he said. ‘(Those in Thailand) are not losing their kids to violence or gangs or drugs. Their family units are intact. There’s no educational outlet for the kids, but the majority of people my parents’ age are living there happily.'”

    “Many of the Hmong in Sacramento live in depressed neighborhoods and attend schools where fights are common, Xiong said. Even those who have avoided violence are struggling, he said: ‘There are 7,000 Hmong in the Sacramento Unified School District and only 4 percent are reading at grade level.'”

    “‘The first wave took about 10 years to adjust to this society,” he said. “Many committed suicide. No matter how much we help them (the newcomers), they’re going to have emotional problems. I’m glad that people are coming, but I’m worried. … Our kids aren’t doing good in school because nobody teaches them or their parents how to survive in this country.'”

40. “Because there are a lot of dumb Indians. I’m not particularly up on India myself – see for example here.”

    India civilization has historically been one of the most advanced civilizations in the world and comparable to Chinese civilization. Don’t underestimate India.

    ” So tell me again how I’m “all wrong” about Africa, PMC? Btw, this is why I roll my eyes when people talk about how colonialism “set Africa back”. The most developed countries in Africa (Zimbabwe, SA, etc.) are the ones in which the whites stayed longest. “

    Africans are experiencing many of these problems because the colonialists didn’t appropriately train Africans to take control after they left. They also didn’t set up the neccessary institutions. They did build some infrastructure and help the continent to develop, but they didn’t do enough to meaninfully contribute.

    If the colonialists had appropriately developed Africa, we would see more successful nations like Bostwana and Marutius.

41. ^That was me.

42. …wondering what would have happened if colonialism had not occurred in the first place …

    c’est ethnocentrisme, le racisme evolutionniste, the idea that the white people in cold climates are better evolved than the brown and black people in warm climates, and as such have the right to civilize those poor lil savages

    but that is what we did. and that is where we stand. and it’s damn hard to fix the mess we created of the world over the past 500 years or so.

    so maybe it is the US responsibility to liberate the Afghanis, even though we never actually colonized Afghanistan, but whatever. Moreso, the Brits’ responsibility to fix the fuckups in South Africa and Zimbabwe. And while we haven’t fixed it, provide asylum to the people from those countries we had a hand in fucking up.

    But if you start putting it in THOSE terms, the same people who want us to go kick Taliban ass start getting a little freaked out…

    token white girl of french and british origin, living in former british colony that belonged to france and mexico and a few other entities as well

43. Paramvir’s whole story is a sham. He has repeatedly been to India and no harm came to him. He says he is now barred from going to Canada because his bride and her family abused his good will and ran off with his belongings. Seems to be an odd case of “dowry theft” except here its the girl who runs off with the grooms belongings. He has created a niche for himself by telling wonderful tales. He was last seen in the Uk where some gullible newspapers were sold the line that he was the first turbaned cowboy in the West. God knows what he will appear as next BUT the real lesson is that he has been back to India on numerous occassions so his attempt to malign our great country was totally unfounded.